To IMC or Not To IMC...
 

So, trawled through all the pages on here (25-odd on the EASA and the IMCR thread plus a few others) and I am trying to summarise the situation here, as I really am trying to work out whether to do the IMC or not before April...

There is always here-say and rumour, but let me start with the facts and work slowly through. The CAA published in September: -

European Legislation - The Expected Effects on the Licensing of Pilots in the UK - September 2011

Frequently Asked Questions concerning the new European rules for pilot licensing

In the first document, there is no specific mention of the IMCR, but I guess that is expected given the extract from the second document.

Which obviously aligns with the statements of some in the EASA and the IMCR thread that there is a separate working group for the IR harmonisation.

I also get the feeling from reading the threads that there has also been a lot of compromise from EASA. The original NPA made no reference to the IMCR and effectively abolished it. There is some discussion about EASA making credit for the IMCR and also some credit towards an EIR. (See quote below, from Page 24 of EASA and IMCR thread): -


So, with that summarising the position so far, as I understand from the trawl, my thoughts and questions are around the worth of doing the IMCR before April.

There is obviously benefit in having some IR skills as a get out of jail card. So either the IMCR or the EIR will offer this benefit. From that perspective there is no advantage in rushing to get the IMCR done before April.

However, if there is a credit, even if restricted to UK airspace only for the full IMCR privileges then there is benefit in extra effort to get the IMCR before April.

Where I am is do this before April or not..........

But having written this, and allowing me to think things through, the IMCR does teach Instrument Approach, which the EIR will not... and as a get out of jail card, I would rather bust everything and get myself on the ground and have the argument, rather than the alternative of trying to teach myself an instrument approach when I am above cloud and don't have much fuel left because I am on my fifth alternate with no cloud breaks - which let's face it will put a smile on an Undertakers face somewhere!

So, with all that said, anyone up for a JAA school in Florida in Feb/March???

I spent the time and money doing one last winter and have not regretted it for a moment. Heartily recommended to anyone who has the means and the medical.

On future regulation, the one clear message seems to be that if you have a valid one at the changeover then you'll get to keep it.

Also, if things go as the NPA, you can use both your IMC training and subsequent real IMC P1 time towards the EIR and CBIR.

PS why do an IMC in Florida? Surely you get better training value where the airspace, radio procedures and weather are relevant to where you will use it? That was my conclusion anyway.

I'm doing my IMC now and it's been really good. Certainly sharpening up my flying skills and has added some purpose to the flying - over and above the £100 burger.

I'd recommend it. As per Joe's post, I'd also recommend it doing it in the airsace that you're going to fly in. There's a reasonable amount of radio work and it can only be of assistance to you. Plus, you'll be used to the approach plates and local info for the airports that you are likely to end up in if you go IMC for real.

Also, hasn't the April date slipped to June/July? (can't remember which)

I have just completed my IMC training and got my rating recently ( :) )

I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and would recommend it to anyone.

I spent years NOT doing an IMC and was able to still do plenty of good flying.

I then got around to it (after my CPL!), and wished I'd done it years ago. I have done lots of flights I couldn't have done before, I learned far more on the IMC course than I did on my much longer CPL course, and am definitely a far safer pilot.

Do it whilst you still can!

But yes, do it in the UK where the conditions represent what you'll then be flying in.

G

JFDI and in the UK

As an IMC rated pilot i hear that my qualification may only be used as a credit to the new IR as of April 2012 (More like April 2015)
which sounds like my IFR privileges will be on hold until i spend loads more money i don't want to spend.

Why should they (EASA) be allowed to do that?
Id never heard of EASA when i started my IMC and now i'm due to renew in March and no one can tell me if i should or if id simply be burning money

Just doing mine now. More of a just in case really. Just in case it saves my life and just in case they grandfather the IMCR.

Roff, doesn't matter what they do with it, you have the skills to save your neck. You're hardly going to be in a situation where you have to do an ILS in dodgy conditions to save yourself and think 'Oooh no, better not it's illegal now'.

And exactly how would they police going through cloud to VFR on top? You just went through a gap and was in visual contact with the ground at all times weren't you.

This is the British at their best, complain like hell at the nonsense surrounding EASA and the IMCR and then if they regulate the IMCR out of existence we all lay down like sheep, kick our legs in the air and go 'OK Sir, whatever you say'. Well sod that, I shall continue to use mine and let them try to pin something on me.

Thing
You can learn the skills on a sim.. It's the piece of paper that costs 2k plus!

IMC for me is also the option of leaving an airfield in IMC conditions to get home instead of waiting day's for better wx.

Not just getting me out of the sh*t!

I fully agree, I don't see that we're talking about different things here.

Also all this talk of making you a better pilot bla bla bla

The better pilot would take an extra 1 hour ground school in MET instead and learn how to avoid IMC in the first place if he only used it as a 'just incase'

You pass your CBT then you expect to be able to ride your motorbike
Pass your HGV and go and get yourself a job driving lorries
Pass your IMC and f*ck knows what your entitled too come April 2012

I would definitely do it. Did mine about 18 months ago and I reckon it's saved some puckering on a few occasions, and quite possibly more on one - deteriorated wx on return to my home field, scud running followed by decision to climb up into cloud (wouldn't have had the confidence to do that without IMCr) for an ILS approach to my alternate. Complicated by my AI toppling seconds after entering very turbulent cloud, and then losing the GS! Broke cloud at 700' on the centre-line with two red two white PAPIs. I later 'phoned my instructor to say a big thank you for teaching me so well, as it was more subconscious and instinctive than I'd have thought possible with my very limited experience.

Absolutely the best money I ever invested!

PS As I understand it, you have to have got the rating before 8th April - the July deadline is just an administration delay.

:ok:

Italianjon

Do the IMCr. Its good experience whether you use it regularly, or don't and keep it for the insane 'get out of jail' scenario. Another 15 hours of having an instructor, perhaps different from your PPL guy, is invaluable after a period of settling into the solo/pax flying norm. We can all form bad habits and learn something new.

Chortle chortle :D

For me, the thrill of the first precision let-down and seeing airport lights bang in front of me as I broke cloud a little above my DA was every bit as good as the first solo. 'Yes! I'm not going to die today!''

I think the point Roff made about not flying in crap weather is a good one, though those fine fellows and lasses in Exeter don't get it right all the time (to that point I feel they have struggled a bit in the second half of this year). Certainly around where I fly things often change for the worse pretty quickly, so the chance to divert to a long airport runway with a nice ILS and a friendly ATCO does feel good to me.

Do it, and if you do do it, do it in the UK, with real weather, in the airspace you're actually going to use it in once qualified.

Out of sheer ignorance and Xenophobia, are international agencies permitted to teach and test for the IMCr? As its a UK national rating I didn't think this was possible.

No, but training providers established overseas and approved by the UK CAA are.

Quote:

PS As I understand it, you have to have got the rating before 8th April - the July deadline is just an administration delay.

Is that correct? I thought it was going to be sufficient to start an IMC course, rather than having to complete it, by the relevant date ( whatever that is).

Doubtless meant in jest, but actually you cant.

Flying in real weather, making real decisions, and dealing with real situations is a whole lot different. It comes (i hope) with time and experience and sadly cant be earned in a sim or at least not the typical ga sim.

Thing, sorry for the miss understanding!

Guy's my beef is with EASA and the CAA on this 1,
I can not recommend doing the IMCr enough... I really really really advise people to do it before april and always have!

It's the fact these people can just change the rules out of the blue and the result is a few grand out of the direct pockets of us!

I am pissed off that my 'proudly earned' and expensive IMC rating can just be swept from me unless i get my wallet back out...

Imagine the DVLA trying the same thing

The IMCR was designed for British pilots to be used in British airspace as our rapidly changing weather conditions deemed that the priveleges granted by the rating would be useful and enable PPL's to use their licenses more often and get out of trouble safely if our unpredictable weather caught them out (as it has me).
The weather hasn't changed so PPLs will be less useful without the IMC rating. As everybody else says - get it if you can for safety's sake. Also, have fun practicing instrument approaches on your computer - you never know when such practice may be useful. Several years ago I watched a student with a mere 45 minutes flying experience in a C152 fly a complete ILS in a PA 28 down to a 200' decision height because he had had loads of computer practice. Whatever our brilliant and sensible regulators decide, it is your life, that of your passengers and you need to hold every card to make your flight safer if you can.

P.P.

My IMC rating expired in late oct. and haven't had a change to revalidate it yet.
Do I have to do that before April 2012?

pmh - I would strongly recommend you do, there is no hard info at the moment, but having a valid rating at the time of crossover would be the safest option.

Hi All,

Thank you for the answers very helpful and I would definitely like to do this.

The reason I thought of Florida, and I have not decided completely yet, is that I am currently living in Germany for work, and as it is a temporary placement I will get pulled back to the UK at some point (hence I would love the IMCR). So it is difficult for me to do the training at the weekends.

My thinking is to take some leave from work and do the training with an average of 2 to 3 flying hours per day.

If that is possible in the UK, then I would do that in the UK. I am just remembering the number of days spent looking skyward during December to May time (mainly due to winds); and the thinking that the US would offer almost guaranteed flying every day to ensure I could complete the training during a period of leave.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a school to do the IMCR in the UK that would be willing to offer a more intensive training? London Area/Southampton Area would be the most preferable, although I could B&B it anywhere for a week.

I completed an intensive IMC in the UK back in September. The fact that it is instrument flying means that you are not going to have to cancel due to wx as much as on a PPL course. Flying in real weather as opposed to under the hood is quite different and you really want to experience it. Flying around with a visor on in Florida is going to be a totally different experience than descending through thick cloud and turbulence.

Anyway, I would certainly recommend doing it and assuming we are allowed to continue to use it post April, make sure you keep the skills current. I am doing quite a few flights now that I couldn't have done before, we just keep it safe by having two IMCr pilots in the cockpit to share the workload.

Enjoy! Some of our training videos are here too: EGHHFlyers's Channel - YouTube

... and for a school you could do much worse than Bournemouth Flying Club. CFI is Tim - have a look on the website and give them a call.

That's a good point about the weather for training. It doesn't matter if it's crap because that's what you are training for. I had to cancel a lesson today and it's been quite sunny here with superb vis. I was cursing my luck not to be flying on such a nice day when the thought struck me that I would be wearing the foggles for 95% of the flight anyway, doesn't matter whether the weather is great or dog when you're training for IMCR.

I'd be shocked if you had any trouble at all getting a club to do an IMCr in a week for you here in the UK, I'd offer myself if I was based in the bottom right-hand corner.
You should get far fewer wx cancels than with a PPL course. It's all dual, the only wx that should ground you is vis. or cloudbase below minima, (which doesn't happen very often actually), wind over aircraft limits or airframe icing conditions.
Seriously consider using a school based somewhere with IAP's, it'll minimise the chances of weather cancels and remove the need for positioning flights, both important if you want it done in a week or so.
Also, as with any intensive flying course, try and get the theory exam done early.
Enjoy it, it's a great course, it'll be terrible if we do lose it. The two landmark moments are usually the first time you climb through an overcast and pop out into brilliant sunshine & blue skies on top, then when the runway seems to magically appear out of the murk from 500' on the ILS. It's fantastic to watch people's reactions to these two events.

If you are able / willing to leave the south coast, Coventry has an ILS in both runway directions (I keep finding airfields that only have them south-westerly), is open long hours (so could do the night qualification while you are at it), is not very expensive (eight pounds for a T&G off a radar vectored ILS recently) and quiet. There are six FTOs there: Almat, Aeros, Coventry Aero Club, Atlantic Flight Training, Classic Flight Flying Club (it has standard aircraft as well as classics) and Midland Air Training.

Good point about approach costs etc. At Bournemouth they were included. There is an ILS on both ends of the runway too.

I was planning to do this last year but never go to it. With EASA now round the corner, it's becoming a little more urgent.

Doing this in the UK (Bournemouth sounds good!), would 7 days somewhere in January/February 2012 be sufficient for an intensive course (weather permitting of course - but that's the whole point of an IMC...)?

I've got a UK issued JAR-FCL PPL. I realise I won't be able to use the rating in the Netherlands (other than VFR-on-top), at least until April 2012, and I know the situation after April 2012 is still unclear.

BackPacker. You'd need a better mind than me to work out whether any UK IMC rating you do now will ever lead to any useful qualification you can use in the Netherlands under EASA in the future. I think the general consensus (and I am sure to be corrected) is that that the IMC rights will be grandfathered by EASA allowing local licensing authorities to add additional privileges to licenses so that equivalents of the national ratings can be maintained.

Whether you could do the course in 7 days is a good question. When I did mine, there were two of us back seating each other’s lessons. Generally we would fly two sorties each per day. You'll probably find that at the beginning two hours per day is enough as it is quite hard work. Once the basics are grasped you could probably managed three per day. The only problem with Jan and Feb will be the number of light hours in the day... Not sure if you can combine the night rating and IMC, or whether if you already have a night rating whether you could do the IMC training during the hours of darkness.

I'd highly recommend giving the folks at Bournemouth Flying Club a call; I may be a little biased, but I have done all of my training there and completed everything in minimum hours and with positive feedback from the examiners. They are a nice bunch of people too!

What I would strongly recommend for any initial instrument qualification is to get a basic sim (FSX will do) and hammer that until you know the procedures fully.

One should never get airborne in a real plane unless one knows everything one is supposed to be doing when up there.

Up there is no place to learn procedures, yet that is exactly what most instrument pilot trainees end up doing. It is a slow process because one's brain is so overloaded just hand flying the plane.

So, get yourself FSX, a cheap £10 stick (no need for a yoke or pedals), a pile of old approach plates, and make sure you can fly every plate which somebody sticks under your nose, within 5 minutes.

I saved myself many hours, and four figures, with FS2000, on the IMCR training. After that, on the FAA IR, I never used the sim because there was nothing in the FAA IR which I didn't already know. Similarly, in the JAA IR, there is nothing I new (apart from a load of NDB hold stuff, ADF dip estimation, etc :) ).

Seconded! (with FSX)

IO540, been there, done that. Holds, SIDs, STARs and airways too, by the way, without the need for a simulated GPS even. Just need to do it for real...

Question for fs2004 users, is their a way to start position the aircraft where you want it 'Closing the localiser' rather than flying yourself to the position?

Roff

Roff, look for the "slew" mode. From memory - Capital R. This will suspend the aircraft in midair and you can then fly it to whatever location you want - helicopter style.

Once in the proper position, save the game so you can go back to that position later.

:) Straight up the stairs i go to try it

It's 'y' for slew on Flight Sim :)