To IMC or Not To IMC...
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To IMC or Not To IMC...
So, trawled through all the pages on here (25-odd on the EASA and the IMCR thread plus a few others) and I am trying to summarise the situation here, as I really am trying to work out whether to do the IMC or not before April...
There is always here-say and rumour, but let me start with the facts and work slowly through. The CAA published in September: -
European Legislation - The Expected Effects on the Licensing of Pilots in the UK - September 2011
Frequently Asked Questions concerning the new European rules for pilot licensing
In the first document, there is no specific mention of the IMCR, but I guess that is expected given the extract from the second document.
Which obviously aligns with the statements of some in the EASA and the IMCR thread that there is a separate working group for the IR harmonisation.
I also get the feeling from reading the threads that there has also been a lot of compromise from EASA. The original NPA made no reference to the IMCR and effectively abolished it. There is some discussion about EASA making credit for the IMCR and also some credit towards an EIR. (See quote below, from Page 24 of EASA and IMCR thread): -
So, with that summarising the position so far, as I understand from the trawl, my thoughts and questions are around the worth of doing the IMCR before April.
There is obviously benefit in having some IR skills as a get out of jail card. So either the IMCR or the EIR will offer this benefit. From that perspective there is no advantage in rushing to get the IMCR done before April.
However, if there is a credit, even if restricted to UK airspace only for the full IMCR privileges then there is benefit in extra effort to get the IMCR before April.
Where I am is do this before April or not..........
But having written this, and allowing me to think things through, the IMCR does teach Instrument Approach, which the EIR will not... and as a get out of jail card, I would rather bust everything and get myself on the ground and have the argument, rather than the alternative of trying to teach myself an instrument approach when I am above cloud and don't have much fuel left because I am on my fifth alternate with no cloud breaks - which let's face it will put a smile on an Undertakers face somewhere!
So, with all that said, anyone up for a JAA school in Florida in Feb/March???
There is always here-say and rumour, but let me start with the facts and work slowly through. The CAA published in September: -
European Legislation - The Expected Effects on the Licensing of Pilots in the UK - September 2011
Frequently Asked Questions concerning the new European rules for pilot licensing
In the first document, there is no specific mention of the IMCR, but I guess that is expected given the extract from the second document.
25. What is going to happen about the IMC rating?
This has still to be decided. EASA is due to publish a Notice of Proposed Amendment
setting out its own proposals for a simplified instrument rating in September 2011. It is
unlikely that EASA will agree a position on the future of the UK IMC rating, and the
privileges of existing holders of the IMC rating, until sometime after the EASA NPA is
published.
This has still to be decided. EASA is due to publish a Notice of Proposed Amendment
setting out its own proposals for a simplified instrument rating in September 2011. It is
unlikely that EASA will agree a position on the future of the UK IMC rating, and the
privileges of existing holders of the IMC rating, until sometime after the EASA NPA is
published.
I also get the feeling from reading the threads that there has also been a lot of compromise from EASA. The original NPA made no reference to the IMCR and effectively abolished it. There is some discussion about EASA making credit for the IMCR and also some credit towards an EIR. (See quote below, from Page 24 of EASA and IMCR thread): -
However, it should be mentioned at this stage that a conversion of existing IMC ratings is already covered by the draft Commission Regulation laying down technical requirements and administrative procedures related to civil aviation aircrew pursuant to Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council. This draft Regulation clearly defines that Member States should convert existing licences and ratings into Part-FCL licences and ratings. It is highlighted in this Regulation that Member States should aim at allowing pilots to, as far as possible, maintain their current scope of activities and privileges. The Agency already discussed this issue with the CAA UK and industry experts in order to identify possible options for UK IMC holders. The most favourable solution seems to be that a Part-FCL licence and an IR will be issued with certain conditions on the basis of a specific conversion report in order to reflect the current privileges held. This would allow the existing UK IMC holders to continue to exercise their IMC privileges.
So, with that summarising the position so far, as I understand from the trawl, my thoughts and questions are around the worth of doing the IMCR before April.
There is obviously benefit in having some IR skills as a get out of jail card. So either the IMCR or the EIR will offer this benefit. From that perspective there is no advantage in rushing to get the IMCR done before April.
However, if there is a credit, even if restricted to UK airspace only for the full IMCR privileges then there is benefit in extra effort to get the IMCR before April.
Where I am is do this before April or not..........
But having written this, and allowing me to think things through, the IMCR does teach Instrument Approach, which the EIR will not... and as a get out of jail card, I would rather bust everything and get myself on the ground and have the argument, rather than the alternative of trying to teach myself an instrument approach when I am above cloud and don't have much fuel left because I am on my fifth alternate with no cloud breaks - which let's face it will put a smile on an Undertakers face somewhere!
So, with all that said, anyone up for a JAA school in Florida in Feb/March???
I spent the time and money doing one last winter and have not regretted it for a moment. Heartily recommended to anyone who has the means and the medical.
On future regulation, the one clear message seems to be that if you have a valid one at the changeover then you'll get to keep it.
Also, if things go as the NPA, you can use both your IMC training and subsequent real IMC P1 time towards the EIR and CBIR.
On future regulation, the one clear message seems to be that if you have a valid one at the changeover then you'll get to keep it.
Also, if things go as the NPA, you can use both your IMC training and subsequent real IMC P1 time towards the EIR and CBIR.
PS why do an IMC in Florida? Surely you get better training value where the airspace, radio procedures and weather are relevant to where you will use it? That was my conclusion anyway.
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I'm doing my IMC now and it's been really good. Certainly sharpening up my flying skills and has added some purpose to the flying - over and above the £100 burger.
I'd recommend it. As per Joe's post, I'd also recommend it doing it in the airsace that you're going to fly in. There's a reasonable amount of radio work and it can only be of assistance to you. Plus, you'll be used to the approach plates and local info for the airports that you are likely to end up in if you go IMC for real.
Also, hasn't the April date slipped to June/July? (can't remember which)
I'd recommend it. As per Joe's post, I'd also recommend it doing it in the airsace that you're going to fly in. There's a reasonable amount of radio work and it can only be of assistance to you. Plus, you'll be used to the approach plates and local info for the airports that you are likely to end up in if you go IMC for real.
Also, hasn't the April date slipped to June/July? (can't remember which)
)
I spent years NOT doing an IMC and was able to still do plenty of good flying.
I then got around to it (after my CPL!), and wished I'd done it years ago. I have done lots of flights I couldn't have done before, I learned far more on the IMC course than I did on my much longer CPL course, and am definitely a far safer pilot.
Do it whilst you still can!
But yes, do it in the UK where the conditions represent what you'll then be flying in.
G
I then got around to it (after my CPL!), and wished I'd done it years ago. I have done lots of flights I couldn't have done before, I learned far more on the IMC course than I did on my much longer CPL course, and am definitely a far safer pilot.
Do it whilst you still can!
But yes, do it in the UK where the conditions represent what you'll then be flying in.
G
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As an IMC rated pilot i hear that my qualification may only be used as a credit to the new IR as of April 2012 (More like April 2015)
which sounds like my IFR privileges will be on hold until i spend loads more money i don't want to spend.
Why should they (EASA) be allowed to do that?
Id never heard of EASA when i started my IMC and now i'm due to renew in March and no one can tell me if i should or if id simply be burning money
which sounds like my IFR privileges will be on hold until i spend loads more money i don't want to spend.
Why should they (EASA) be allowed to do that?
Id never heard of EASA when i started my IMC and now i'm due to renew in March and no one can tell me if i should or if id simply be burning money
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Just doing mine now. More of a just in case really. Just in case it saves my life and just in case they grandfather the IMCR.
Roff, doesn't matter what they do with it, you have the skills to save your neck. You're hardly going to be in a situation where you have to do an ILS in dodgy conditions to save yourself and think 'Oooh no, better not it's illegal now'.
And exactly how would they police going through cloud to VFR on top? You just went through a gap and was in visual contact with the ground at all times weren't you.
This is the British at their best, complain like hell at the nonsense surrounding EASA and the IMCR and then if they regulate the IMCR out of existence we all lay down like sheep, kick our legs in the air and go 'OK Sir, whatever you say'. Well sod that, I shall continue to use mine and let them try to pin something on me.
Roff, doesn't matter what they do with it, you have the skills to save your neck. You're hardly going to be in a situation where you have to do an ILS in dodgy conditions to save yourself and think 'Oooh no, better not it's illegal now'.
And exactly how would they police going through cloud to VFR on top? You just went through a gap and was in visual contact with the ground at all times weren't you.
This is the British at their best, complain like hell at the nonsense surrounding EASA and the IMCR and then if they regulate the IMCR out of existence we all lay down like sheep, kick our legs in the air and go 'OK Sir, whatever you say'. Well sod that, I shall continue to use mine and let them try to pin something on me.
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Thing
You can learn the skills on a sim.. It's the piece of paper that costs 2k plus!
IMC for me is also the option of leaving an airfield in IMC conditions to get home instead of waiting day's for better wx.
Not just getting me out of the sh*t!
You can learn the skills on a sim.. It's the piece of paper that costs 2k plus!
IMC for me is also the option of leaving an airfield in IMC conditions to get home instead of waiting day's for better wx.
Not just getting me out of the sh*t!
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Also all this talk of making you a better pilot bla bla bla
The better pilot would take an extra 1 hour ground school in MET instead and learn how to avoid IMC in the first place if he only used it as a 'just incase'
You pass your CBT then you expect to be able to ride your motorbike
Pass your HGV and go and get yourself a job driving lorries
Pass your IMC and f*ck knows what your entitled too come April 2012
The better pilot would take an extra 1 hour ground school in MET instead and learn how to avoid IMC in the first place if he only used it as a 'just incase'
You pass your CBT then you expect to be able to ride your motorbike
Pass your HGV and go and get yourself a job driving lorries
Pass your IMC and f*ck knows what your entitled too come April 2012
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I would definitely do it. Did mine about 18 months ago and I reckon it's saved some puckering on a few occasions, and quite possibly more on one - deteriorated wx on return to my home field, scud running followed by decision to climb up into cloud (wouldn't have had the confidence to do that without IMCr) for an ILS approach to my alternate. Complicated by my AI toppling seconds after entering very turbulent cloud, and then losing the GS! Broke cloud at 700' on the centre-line with two red two white PAPIs. I later 'phoned my instructor to say a big thank you for teaching me so well, as it was more subconscious and instinctive than I'd have thought possible with my very limited experience.
Absolutely the best money I ever invested!
PS As I understand it, you have to have got the rating before 8th April - the July deadline is just an administration delay.
Absolutely the best money I ever invested!
PS As I understand it, you have to have got the rating before 8th April - the July deadline is just an administration delay.
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Italianjon
Do the IMCr. Its good experience whether you use it regularly, or don't and keep it for the insane 'get out of jail' scenario. Another 15 hours of having an instructor, perhaps different from your PPL guy, is invaluable after a period of settling into the solo/pax flying norm. We can all form bad habits and learn something new.
Chortle chortle 
Do the IMCr. Its good experience whether you use it regularly, or don't and keep it for the insane 'get out of jail' scenario. Another 15 hours of having an instructor, perhaps different from your PPL guy, is invaluable after a period of settling into the solo/pax flying norm. We can all form bad habits and learn something new.
You pass your CBT then you expect to be able to ride your motorbike
Pass your HGV and go and get yourself a job driving lorries
Pass your IMC and f*ck knows what your entitled too come April 2012
Pass your HGV and go and get yourself a job driving lorries
Pass your IMC and f*ck knows what your entitled too come April 2012
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For me, the thrill of the first precision let-down and seeing airport lights bang in front of me as I broke cloud a little above my DA was every bit as good as the first solo. 'Yes! I'm not going to die today!''
I think the point Roff made about not flying in crap weather is a good one, though those fine fellows and lasses in Exeter don't get it right all the time (to that point I feel they have struggled a bit in the second half of this year). Certainly around where I fly things often change for the worse pretty quickly, so the chance to divert to a long airport runway with a nice ILS and a friendly ATCO does feel good to me.
I think the point Roff made about not flying in crap weather is a good one, though those fine fellows and lasses in Exeter don't get it right all the time (to that point I feel they have struggled a bit in the second half of this year). Certainly around where I fly things often change for the worse pretty quickly, so the chance to divert to a long airport runway with a nice ILS and a friendly ATCO does feel good to me.
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Out of sheer ignorance and Xenophobia, are international agencies permitted to teach and test for the IMCr? As its a UK national rating I didn't think this was possible.
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Quote:
PS As I understand it, you have to have got the rating before 8th April - the July deadline is just an administration delay.
Is that correct? I thought it was going to be sufficient to start an IMC course, rather than having to complete it, by the relevant date ( whatever that is).
PS As I understand it, you have to have got the rating before 8th April - the July deadline is just an administration delay.
Is that correct? I thought it was going to be sufficient to start an IMC course, rather than having to complete it, by the relevant date ( whatever that is).
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You can learn the skills on a sim.. It's the piece of paper that costs 2k plus!
Flying in real weather, making real decisions, and dealing with real situations is a whole lot different. It comes (i hope) with time and experience and sadly cant be earned in a sim or at least not the typical ga sim.