Big Crash at Reno
 

Very bad news, looks like a P 51 went in, in the pits/grandstand area.

More here

Plane crashes into crowd at Reno air races - US news - Life - msnbc.com



:sad:

Seems the Pilot was 80 yo. Now to me that seems a tad elderly to be racing a P51 at 500 kts Low level pulling god knows how many G with the public close by.

The appears to have impacted the ramp area in front of the pits just about where I've typically watched the races from for 15 out of the last 20 race years. A friend of mine introduced me to Jimmy Leeward a few years ago and he seemed very young at heart and spirit. We spent a while at his pit box listening to amusing stories and watching his crew prepare the airplane for the next race. I had no idea he was in his 70s at that time. He was flying a different Mustang at that time.

I've been present for several "big crashes" at Reno and I'm not sorry I missed seeing this one.

It's bad. BBC relaying unconfirmed reports of 12 dead, 25 critical injuries.

If you look at some of the other YouTube Videos, you'll see the aircraft did a zoom climb rolled and dived into the ground. It was clearly not under control from the start of the zoom climb.

I don't race aircraft, but I do race vintage cars - another sport where lots of old guys go to have fun.

Last weekend, there was a fatality at a vintage race at Watkins Glen - the car simply went straight on at full speed, whereas the track turned right. There was no attempt to turn the corner.

Increasingly, it is becoming clear that many accidents such as this are caused by the driver having a heart attack and simply not being in control of the car. That's what happened at the Glen, and that looks awfully like what happened at Reno with the Mustang.

Looks like OD has this accident all figured out. Guess the NTSB can go home.

Tw itter has some links to 40 + minute video showing the crash & aftermath. There was a comment claiming to be from a relative of a pilot in that race saying a trim tab had failed. There seems to reports of aprox 40 dead.

I don't think sick, 'witty' comments have any place in the thread at this point.


#renocrash

News reports claim the pilot was (check the link if you are interested):
Update: Renown says two confirmed dead in air races crash; pilot was stunt pilot for movies | Reno Gazette-Journal | rgj.com


CBS Live Feed: CBSNews livefeed

Mayday
 

CNN is reporting the pilot "sent a Mayday" before "pulling out of the lap" and then going in. I can't figure out how to post a link with my iPad that I'm using now, but at the moment it's right up front on CNN.com - Breaking News, U.S., World, Weather, Entertainment & Video News.

There's also a BBC report saying 3 dead at this point. It looks bad indeed. Given the current administration, this could well mean the end of air shows in the US. Let's hope it doesn't turn that Draconian.

A good friend and fellow pilot just called - he was 50 feet from the impact. He saw a dozen or more dead bodies. His description of what he saw is staggering.

While there are air races with 50 and 60 year old combat aircraft being flown to their extreme limits by very elderly pilots, for the benefit of willing viewers, there will be fatalities.

Perhaps the only thing that will change is when an aircraft plunges into the centre of the watching crowd and the fatalities are in the hundreds. That will probably result in some tightening of rules, and perhaps smaller amounts of spectators at the next show.

The dreadful disasters at Farnborough in 1952 and Ramstein in 1988 have done little to quench the appetite of those who are prepared to risk their lives, to watch pilots risk their lives.
One really has to question, at what point, antique, rare and valuable ex-combat aircraft, will be stopped from performing extreme stunts in front of crowds.

No doubt the lawyers will be slavering over this one... or is there an all-encompassing "out", in the Air Race entrance conditions on the ticket?
I'll wager no air show watcher ever reads the fine print that says "air show watching is a hazardous occupation, and the promoters accept no responsibility for death or injury of patrons". :suspect:

List of airshow accidents and incidents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jimmy Leeward was 74, not 80. He was an experienced race pilot and movie pilot. The NTSB will be onsite in the morning.

I think we can agree that any form of racing is dangerous, and air racing is no exception. I would venture a guess that more spectators have been injured or killed in auto racing than with air racing. Note that this is the first case of spectators being hurt at the Reno Championship Air Races.

Condolences to Jimmy Leeward's family and friends and for the injured and killed in today's tragic accident.

74 years old, you gotta be joking. I've flown with 70 year olds and they need spoon feeding.

Let's please show some respect here. Jimmy Leeward was one of Reno's best.
The Galloping Ghost was an extraordinary aircraft. Notably because of its extremely short 'clipped' wings and absence of the familiar P-51 cooling scoop.
If she lost an elevator tab as is suspected, it's unlikely a younger, less experienced pilot would have made any difference to the outcome.
Personally, I'm grateful there have been people in the world like Jimmy Leeward who have had the courage and means to live their lives at high speed. They demonstrate to people like me and Skol that not everybody has to live mundane, pathetic little lives.

Everyone is entitled to take risk in their lives, we knowingly and mostly without being aware of it at all measure & take risks everyday. Of course air shows / races should be as safe as possible...but it isn't possible to have no risk. As awful as it is those that race and spectate at races are taking risk but it is the excitement from that risk that makes us feel alive.

Any crash at a show inevitably brings comment about old 'planes and old pilots and a call to end such shows (making life just a bit more dull) yet the same outcry doesn't follow a road crash nor does the same outcry stop governments stop unpopular wars or such.

Just proving that humans exhibit some strange vagaries when it comes to risk & freedom of choice I guess.

I was directly below the P51 when it pulled up went inverted and dove into the ground. I thought it was going to hit our section of the stands but it hit 300 ft away. My wife had just left a box in front of the stands 15 minutes prior to join me in the stands that was 100 ft from the impact point. A few of my friends were injured slightly that stayed in the box but had blood and flesh on their clothing from the people who took a direct strike. I was in a war in Vietnam and never experienced the shock of seeing my friends covered with blood and in one case flesh on his clothing. It was going over 500 mph when it went in at an 80 degree angle. We have been coming to Reno for the Air Races 12 years straight but have a bad feeling this is it.

I hope I am wrong on the races being over. It is our favorite annual activity. I saw the whole thing and it looked like a mechanical problem, not a pilot one. I personally know a lot of the unlimited racers. One was the kid I soloed on his 16th birthday in the 70's. The other, Steve Hinton, took me on two P51 rides in the same time period when I was putting him through an instrument pilot course.

Galloping Ghost
 

I am here at Reno and can tell those of you speculating about what happened this afternoon that the NTSB will investigate the incident and will in due course publish their findings.
The mood here is sombre but nobody who knows anything about airplanes is offering opinions about what went wrong/happened/caused the crash. There is a message there to those who will insist on airing their opinions on PPRuNe.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2e9_1316224603
&

http://i.imgur.com/XPKil.jpg

Kalium's link isn't showing up for me, but I assume it is similar to this one I've found.
http://i.imgur.com/yPwE1.jpg

I'm rather saddened to see some of the rubbish being said about old pilots. It is most unfortunate accident.

I'm no expert. I'd be surprised to learn that a failure like that would result in such a catastophic loss of control, some difficulty perhaps, but total loss of control is not what I would have expected.
A very sad event on many levels.

Oh no. What an awful thing to happen.

Anyone who is speculating on causes at this time is at best an idiot. Pipe down and keep your uninformed opinions to yourselves.

This crash will likely have some serious repercussions for Reno and air racing and air shows in general. Lets hope that no kneejerk restrictions get imposed, but that any lessons that are there to be learned get implemented.

A horrible accident and my heart goes out to all involved.

As a British enthusiast, I would like to pay tribute to Mr. Leeward. I met him at Oshkosh five years ago, and he gave me his baseball hat, with his other Mustang 'Cloud Dancer' on it. He was a very nice man, who always had time to speak to enthusiasts. British people who met him were frequently invited to visit his 'Air Ranch', where he was most accomodating to everyone, inviting even casual spectators to share in his barbecue. His cap became my 'decorating' hat. I will now refurbish it to it's 'as new' status, and it will sit on a shelf at my house in memory of this very pleasant man, whom, I gather, had recently become a Lay Preacher. RIP Jimmy. You were one of the best. Condolences to EVERYONE involved in this tragedy.

Pure speculation, but here is a possible scenario, after all this is a rumour network...

Elevator trim tab failure at high speed causes extreme high 'g' pitch up, pilot blacks out, slumps forwards, 'g' causes tailwheel unlock, aircraft impacts at full power.

Notice that in the pictures of the aircraft just before impact that the pilot's helmet is not visible, the elevator trim tab is damaged and the tailwheel is extended.

Details of the aircraft in normal configuration:

Galloping Ghost Specifications | Florida's Premier Airpark - Leeward Air Ranch

It can and has done so before on many occasions. Especially at high speed. We can save the specific mechanical and aerodynamics lectures for later, but have no doubt that flight control malfunctions at high speed are often catastrophic in outcome.

westhawk

Happened in 98 I think to another P-51 - apparently the aircraft pulled around 11G in the pitch up but luckily went straight up and not over such as this one. Pilot blacked out initially but recovered through 10,000' to get the aircraft back on the ground.

Hi,

Very clear pics of the accident (care .. explicits pics)
Updated pics: Air Races tragedy | rgj.com | Reno Air Races | Reno Gazette-Journal
Head pilot not showing ... unconscious ?

IF that image is real;

My own reaction to an unexpected pitch up would probably be to pull the power.

I'm guessing that a race-spec P51 has a bit more torque than my spam can, so along with the wonky elevator and the speed, might that be enough to put it on its back and... well you've seen the video ?

There does not appear to be a post impact fire. How much fuel would this aircraft have been carrying at that stage of the contest?

It's a real pic...
It's been captured from various angles.
:(

Hi,

I can see on the pic that the elevators (the left for sure) are in neutral position during final dive
Can because the pilot loss consciousness .... ?

Onetrack

There has already been considerable tightening of the rules since the incidents you mention. Which is partly why no spectator has been killed or seriously injured at a UK display for nearly 60 years.

Incidentally neither the Farnborough nor the Ramstein crashes involved either elderly aircraft or elderly pilots. Can you give an example of an airshow crash where pilot or aircraft age was a factor?

What a sad event. Though I never met Mr. Leeward, I flew into his air ranch a number of times.

Though I have no more information than what I see here, and I am not P 51 pilot, I can say that an elevator trim tab failure would be one of the most scary in flight failures I could dread. Yes, it could very easily completely over power the pilot, and indeed even the flight control system itself.

I once suffered a 5 degree elevator trim tab stop rigging error on a Cessna 206 (one quarter that airspeed of a P 51), and that very small control error created control forces which were at a minimum 50 pounds, where they should have been able to be trimmed out completely. I have total empathy for what Mr. Leeward must have had to manage for those last few seconds.

Two things strike me about that photo:

The tail wheel is extended, when the mains are not, and, Mr. Leeward is not visible in the cockpit, a I would expect. Could a very high G event be a single cause of both of these things? A pitch trim failure could certainly cause very high G.

It looks as thought the one small consolation is that the pilot knew nothing about it.

I don't think the pilot's age had anything to do with this. There was at least one guy who was 82 and was an aerobatic instructor. I think that as long as a pilot can pass the physicals and has no sign of demential and such he/she should be allowed to keep on flying. (Personally I think the requirement that dictates airline pilots have to retire at 60 is stupid as well -- from what I remember, the requirement didn't have anything to do with age related problems)

From what that still picture shows (if the shot is legit), it looks similar to what hambleoldboy described.

BTW: Regarding to the statement of racing a P51 at 500 kts at low level... I was under the impression that the P-51 was only capable of those speeds in a dive, though it wouldn't surprise me if it was the case.

How old was Bob Hoover when he quit? Gen Yeager?

tail wheel
 

A sudden heavy G load may also explain why the tailwheel is down.

To suggest that the crash was a result of his age simply because of his age alone is ridiculous.

Whilst I typically hate speculation, I think there's some evidence in the photographs - which along with previous accidents might give an insight into what happened. These are photographs of the aircraft;

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/Vy6...70670062b6.jpg

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/jYo...706700459c.jpg

Notice the lack of an elevator trim tab in the first photo. There was a previous incident a few years ago when during fast level flight, the trim tab of another P-51 (Voodoo Chile) broke off and the aircraft pulled into a 10G pitch-up. The pilot at the time was Bob Hannah. He immediately lost conciousness, and woke up having gained almost 9000 feet. If you look at the photographs of his aircraft 'Voodoo Chile' after the incident, you'll notice it's the same trim tab that went missing.

Also notice in the second photograph that you cannot see a pilot in the cockpit. One way or another he must be slumped forward, very consistent with heavy positive G.

And let's face it, I doubt there's anyone in the world who can stay concious with a completely unexpected and immediate 10G load.

Furthermore, the testimony of people on the scene suggests structural failure.

Another pic showing part of port stab trim tab missing..

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/e...opingGhost.jpg

An earlier shot showed it beginning to detach.

I've never seen an aircraft accident like this. Incredible footage on The UK Daily Mail website, taken from a podcast.

Considering the speed of the aircraft, it seems fortunate that it went down vertically. In the podcast you can see an impact point and then nothing (I can see) that looks like an aircraft. No fire or smoke (save a short initial burst), just impact and debris.

Those hit by shrapnel must be in a state and I hope they don't suffer too much, too long.

I haven't been to an air race, but these sort of high impact crowd incidents take one back to motor racing in the 1950's and 60's. 74 years old seems to be a bit much to be absorbing so much g and for this sort of high energy environment.

O'Neill.