The unlimited class winner last year (I believe, it could have been a year or 2 earlier) averaged 482 mph over the 6 lap race. I believe they fly about 450 feet AGL and are highly modified to obtain these speeds, but are at their limits. A failure at the speeds they fly of course can tax anybodies abilities. Jimmy Leeward could handle them with the best. My prayers to his family and all the people at the races who were injured physically and mentally by this horrific crash.

Those aren't ordinary Mustangs. Top qualifying lap this year was a 499 mph average...

I hope all the people criticising the age of the pilot feel a bit silly now, I have done a lot of flying with a pilot 70+ years of age, they should try it ! You would learn a lot of old school flying skills as well as etiquette .

"My heart goes out to all in such a tragic accident"

Austerwobbler

Low level, high speed. Any problems in that situation tend to be a very serious ones.

These unlimited machines are absolute rocket ships and are right on the limit much of the time. With the picture of the trim stab coming off. A picture is starting to form about what *might* have happened. The pilot could have been 10 or 100 and I don't think the outcome would have been different.

With that in mind, can we forget about the pilots age in subsequent comments please.

From KOLO-TV in Reno:

http://media.graytvinc.com/images/plane+enlarged.jpg

Possibly age is relevant in the ability of a very mature human being to absorb the sudden unexpected increase in g caused by the suggested trim tab failure?

I was accustomed to flying aircraft where moderate to high g was a normal part of the day. But even with a g suit it was tiring, and I was in my 20's then. I am 50 now and would not want to put myself under that sort of stress now, let alone at 74!

May turn out not be related to this horrible accident. But I don't think you would find many people who are not surprised at the age of this man, given the stress of the sport of air racing.

O'Neill.

How about quitting the squabbling chaps, and getting back to the topic?

Skittles' analysis gives what seems to be a very plausible scenario for how this incredibly tragic accident occurred.
Despite this accident having probably nothing to do with the age of the pilot, I agree that there may be reasons to look into the physiology involved in racing at the ages some of these pilots are. However, any restriction should be based on empirical evidence and possibly individualised testing to establish personal limits.

To those who wish to clamp down on speculation; belt up and stop reading a forum named 'Professional Pilots' RUMOUR network'. Discussing the probable causes of tragedies helps us to prevent future ones. Don't even get me started on waiting for accident reports to be produced. Discussing safety is an insult to nobody.

Uh oh, this thread is going downhill fast!

Age could be a factor, but could be a small factor. To be truthful, I very much doubt anyone will ever know that for sure. Stirring that pot here, with so few facts, is totally pointless. I do know that age is a major factor in some amazing training I have had over the years, and as recently as last month, from a super 75 year old private pilot, who's been flying longer than I have been alive. I'm not amazed by his age, I'm envious! I hope I fly as he does, when I reach age...

It would appear that there is reason to suspect a control system failure. It is certain that a serious control system failure could cause a crash in any aircraft. Those who seek out the report in time, will read whatever answers the NTSB comes up with.

For myself (while occupying left seat, in case that somehow matters), when I am required to flight test to dive speed, I check elevator trim tab freeplay and security very carefully. I have had two rebuilt before I would test the aircraft, because I was not satisfied the freeplay was acceptable. What I have seen so far in this really unhappy event assures me that I should keep doing that!

I struggle to imagine anyone here having a personal agenda on this topic!?!. This is a place where people exchange ideas and opinions for entertainment, and perhaps some mind expanding. Don't worry SAS, a few posters seem to have some growing up to do, I know you won't be phased.... I don't recall seeing your posts here for a while, welcome back, if that's appropriate. I look forward to more of your thoughts....

So, if wise people reading here, were to actually try to learn something from the very preliminary FACTS known, and be better pilots in their own right, what would we do?

I'll be paying even more attention to trim tabs, particularly on faster aircraft I fly.... (Oh, and I'm going to act my age!)

Hiya Pilot DAR, Too busy at work I'm afraid to do much posting on here! Hopefully that'll change soon, but until then I have content myself with the odd fly by posting!

I can't add anything to your post, because it's spot on.

Respect people PLEASE.
Speculation as to cause is fine and may even be healthy.

But if it reads as blame and/or advocates all sorts of restrictions based on sweeping generalisations and a little knowledge, it does nobody any good - and it may hurt those directly connected to this accident.

The range of pilot abilities in this world is vast and not always related to pilot age.

In the photo of the plane diving from the left, it looks like not just the trim tab, but the entire left elevator and part of the horizontal stab is gone.

The cooling boiler appears to vent on the left as well. What was the impact of steam flowing over the left side at speed?

Trim Settings over full course.
 

Anyone know what elevator trim settings are used in the unlimited class as you make your way around the full course? I'd think it would be pretty nose up during the turns probably transitioning to nose down as you roll the wings level toward level. Just curious.

keezy44

I saw Hinton crash into the sage after engine failure (seizure) at low level. Initially he was announced as dead, but as we all know.... I think it was 1980. "RED BARON" with twin contra rotating Props.

If a racer is having problems, his first duty is to leave the circuit, with a max (if possible) climb. This is consistent with the photography, and the roll seemed gentle. If the climb was inadvertent, or unavoidable, well, things happen. Just to add, shoulder harness or no, without a helmet bracket (NHRA), pilot's neck broke likely immediately. The Pitch Up was unreal.

Informed consent is the drill. If you agree, you got no bitches coming if you croak. Allowing children, who cannot give consent to this, is another story.

No one gets to RENO by accident, but sometimes they leave because of one. I honor the cessation of the racing this year, who could fly after such a thing? But next year, I'll be back. Danger diminishes as the distance from show center increases.

I would speculate that he was unconscious prior to impact, but at what point is uncertain. If that aircraft did in fact pitch up at 10g due to control failure, he was probably asleep almost instantly. In one of the pictures there is something visible in the front of the cockpit area, possibly his helmet, but in the side view nothing is visible...
RIP Jimmy Leeward, you died doing something you loved.
Condolences to family and friends.

My condolences to all who have been affected by this tragedy.

No speculation here but I will add that when the same malfunction happened to Bob Hannah in Voodoo, he did not have his shoulder harness locked. When he regained conciousness at 9000-10000 feet, he was bent over at the waist and his face was planted against the floor of the cockpit. At the time, Bob was in his prime and in excellent shape as prior to air racing he made his living as a professional athlete racing motorcycles off road - and was US National Champion for a number of years.

An almost instantaneous application of 9-10g's is a game-changer for everyone. I don't think Jimmy ever saw the ground fill the windscreen.

CNN Breaking News

Old pilots.

ONLY because I'm an 'old' pilot did I find out that I had a problem - 'cos my age demanded an additional exercise ECG to renew my licence.

The problem was attended to and my licence re-issued, albeit with some restrictions - better than the alternative !

How many guys hurtling down the road towards you even know that they have a problem before they die and slam into you ?

Keep RENO to the facts as known.

On another site I've read a suggestion that the RENO accident was a deliberate Terrorist Attack. The "Darwin Awards" clearly aren't working.

International Formula One rules
 

Does anyone know if pilots are required to wear G suits for this class of race? I hear there is a G suit specifically designed for racing named G-race. I believe it is used at Red Bull air race.

relevant info from IF1 technical rules:Very sad day for all of aviation.

No, there isn't :ugh:

I'm not a race pilots but I do fly aerobatics. You set the trim to a certain value/speed before the sequence starts, and you don't touch it during the sequence. For starters because you don't have enough limbs to do so (one hand on the stick, the other on the throttle) and furthermore because a trim change also changes the characteristics of the aircraft. All of a sudden you are confronted with more or less back or forward stick force for the same maneuver. Not funny. So you simply haul the aircraft around the sky with rudder and stick alone, and don't touch the trim at all.

I would assume air racing is the same. You set the trim, probably for max power horizontal flight, before the race, and leave it there during the race.

What you might be confused with is that people on here are simply talking about a trimtab that apparently got loose. Now I'm not familiar with the P51 trim system but in a lot of aircraft that little tab is not used exclusively for trimming (in the speed stability sense) but also to create artificial stability into the tailplane. The aerodynamics and mechanics are a bit too complicated for now, but without such a tab you're not just lacking speed stability. You also lost all force feedback from the tailplane, which may lead to Pilot-Induced-Oscillations and even flutter. Both of which are not good news.

Even worse would be if the trimtab would detach partly, then bend over and start to act like an aerofoil on its own, forcing the tailplane against the stops all of a sudden. That would induce a massive pitch change.

I did. Same place, almost-same a/c...MISS ASHLEY II. And very similar reason too, at least from what you can figure out from the pics: trim-tab separated.

A very sad outcome even that day with pilot killed but the a/c (which broke up in midair) hit nothing on the ground but the desert floor...

Sad day. Even sadder to read so much cr@p about pilot's age, etc from the usual armchair experts.

DK :(

At these altitudes, no one wants to burp and eat dirt, so let's set the trim for a NOSE UP bias, and 'need push' to stay low.

If the tab then departs, the NOSE will drop, BIG time. So pilot will counter with an emphatic NOSE UP.

According to the AP:
Whether those changes may have had any bearing upon what happened is a question I'll leave to those more knowledgeable.

Note: that podcast quote reportedly is from June, so there were several months in which to do additional testing. I don't want to imply that he hadn't thoroughly tested the modifications.

And Hannah was 42 when that happened, so clearly he was too old as well........:rolleyes:
I think it's highly likely that the outcome of this event would have been the same had the pilot been 74 or 24.

Sad day for aviation and air racing.

Hats off as well to the civvie owned static 'vintage' Huey crew for immediately putting the a/c to use for casevac.:D

Very sad news.

I met Jimmy at Vero Beach in 1989/1990. What a down to earth, fantastic guy and brilliant pilot.

So many of these warbird guys have their heads up their own A...s, but Jimmy was a true exception.

Don't let his age fool you! I would fly with Jimmy tomorrow if I could, rather than some pilots I know half his age.

Sincere condolences to all affected

Age...
 

Initial reports are of a call from the aircraft indicating a problem, and then a very high g manoeuvre occurring. It is hard to reconcile this with any age factor. The photo of the tail section shows the inner tab separating and forcing the remaining tab to deflect (servo) the elevator TE up.

Whether 18 or 80, a sudden high g onset without being prepared will put most people's lights out. The pitch rate of the aircraft in the pull up, pull down, and the final start of the pull out is indicative of very high g loads being sustained.

Reno is spectacular, and not too many people go there without being aware that it historically can be dangerous for the participants, and the public are proximate to the event... at 500mph, a loss of control can cover a lot of ground, and "proximate" becomes down in it. It is a tragedy, but not completely unexpected. The surprise is that mixing high speed aircraft, low level ops and spectators is as incident free as it is generally.

Thanks BackPacker. That makes a lot of sense to me. I wrote the post while trying to figure out how separation of that tab, if it turns out to be related to the cause, would cause a sudden pitch up. If anything, it seems it might cause a pitch down.

I've never actually been to the RAR, so don't know what % of the time you are in level flight as opposed to some degree of left turn. If it's mostly left turn, I'd think you would trim it for the turn and muscle it toward the ground for any short period of straight and level flight.

http://www.visitrenotahoe.com/images...urse_photo.gif

Looks to me like they are in some degree of left turn almost all the way around.

P51D "Voodoo" - Qualifying monday noon, Reno Airraces 2011 - YouTube

Any problem with the trim or elevator at high speed could cause this type of crash, so it looks pretty obvious to me that this was the cause. The tail wheel seems to back that up. I'd also have thought that a sudden unexpected 10g climb might not only put your lights out but also break your neck whether 20 or 80 (in my limited aerobatic experience of not exceeding 6g). It is a testament that the wings didn't come off.

How many G would be required to pop the tailwheel out?

It may be salutary to the age knockers to remember that John Glenn flew on the Space Shuttle Discovery at the age of 77, and trips on the Shuttle weren't given away in cornflakes boxes, you had to earn your place. Still going strong at 90 years of age.

Condolences to the spectators and pilot's families.

100 percent agreed, and the TT failure was the result of a high-speed stall and buffeting. To say the pilot is to blame is an understatement. The one thing you can't do at an airshow is crash into the crowd. That's just not allowed.

This Mustang was extensively modified but still a Mustang with short wings. It had aerodynamic limits based on being a Mustang. I think he forgot that.

Interestingly it's been rebuilt four times, once after being gutted (for parts?) and twice more for previous crashes, in addition to the radiator removal and cooling system modification. Not a happy airplane.

-drl

deSitter


any chance you could translate this a little better:confused:

are you saying that the trim trab is secondary to a pilot induced condition?

Just how can you control where a plane crashes when it's out of control in an uncommanded over-the-top?. So it appears that it is possible to crash into a crowd.

The Mustang was always known to be subject to high-speed stall - separation of airflow from going too fast. This would cause buffeting in the elevator (an early warning) and the evidence here is that the elevator was torn apart. He seems to have been way wide in the turn and was probably pushing it to get in the race. Really, really stupid.

-drl

NTSB must be glad you've figured it all out so they can call it a day.
:mad:

Agreed, Zorin_75!

deSitter, your comments are without evidence and are complete nonsense.

NX79111 was an Experimental Category aircraft; it is plausible that aerodynamic stress loads on the tailplane and pitch control system may have been modified as a result of the structural chnages made to the aircraft. But that will be for the NTSB to ascertain.

"74 years old, you gotta be joking. I've flown with 70 year olds and they need spoon feeding."

And I've flown with 18 year olds who should go back to wearing nappies.

I've also flown with both 18 year olds and 75 year olds who are first rate.

Any of you age-bashers ever heard these two little words...INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES? Or do they have too many syllables for you?

Quote:
'Does anyone know if pilots are required to wear G suits for this class of race? I hear there is a G suit specifically designed for racing named G-race. I believe it is used at Red Bull air race.'

Youtube cockpit video of a similar Mustang at Reno, speed and 'g' are shown top left, sustained 'g' is around 2 to 3.5 so I would have thought tolerable for a fit pilot without g-suit.

Someone wrote this on another forum. I think it is a very sensible view.

Well said Whirly. :ok:
ZA :ok:

That horizontal tail looks unlike a regular Mustangs'. It's way too square and the corners are too sharp.

Was it just modified or was it from a different type or even a one-off?

Huh? Would deSitter please decode this?

In general, a high speed stall (among other factors) could cause buffet, which is quite different from flutter. That buffet could, and should act upon the leading edge of the H stab to give the pilot a warning of impending stall. It is unlikely in the extreme that the buffet would affect the elevator trim tab in any meaningful way.

Flutter of a trim tab could occur from a combination of circumstances, which would generally include none to only light aerodynamic forces on the tab and high speed, and a combination of other factors, which could be design, construction, or maintenance (but not piloting) related. A larger aerodynamic load (like high G - piloting) on the tab would tend to prevent flutter.

A high speed stall will occur when a combination of increasing G and decreasing speed causes the critical angle of attack to be exceeded, and the wing stalls. A stalling wing is associated with rapid deceleration, which is the best thing to stop flutter. To get the increasing G, a lot of pitch control force is being applied. This control force input is likely to also assure that trim tab flutter does not begin.

High G and/or high speed stall will not cause flutter, or buffet which would harmfully affect a trim tab.

Flutter of a trim tab, caused either by poor flutter resistance at high speed (design), or failure (construction/maintenance) could very certainly cause a loss of control and high G, which the pilot could not overcome (so not piloting).

Having no more information than the photos and videos I have seen here, it certainly does not appear to me that a high speed stall occurred, though there does appear to have been a trim tab position problem.