Irish sea airway crossing / transit?
 

ok, thought I had this clear in my own mind but having read a few other threads, now more confused than ever! My understanding was that a class A transit was only possible under SVFR in a CTA and the only way one could pass through a (class A) airway was with an IR.

I have an IMCr (which actually is irrelevant thinking about it). I'm planning to travel South West to Caenarfon, which will take me out over the Irish Sea and there are a number of airways enroute. I know I can't cross them IFR but I thought I may be able to ask for a SVFR crossing / transit however, my question seems to have a different answer depending on the answers to some questions for which there seem no clear answers.

1. Is it correct that I can cross the airway (any airway for that matter) if it is a military controller giving the clearance?
2. Does it depend if the individual airway is treated as a CTA or not and if this is the case, how do i find out if this is the case?
3. It depends if the aircraft is full IFR equipped.
4. If I file a VFR flight plan, I stand a better chance of getting the crossing / transit that I want?

I'm sure its clear from the above that I've read quite a few conflicting threads on this!

SVFR is only available in a Control Zone. A Control Zone starts at the surface, an airway doesn't. Ergo SVFR is not available in airways.

1) No. Not without an IR anyway (bar being able to cross at the base level when said base is defined as a flight level, but you don't need to be talking to the mil for that. In fact you don't need to be talking to anybody).
2) No. Though where airways transit Terminal Control Areas they assume the airspace classification of the TMA. So if the TMA is a lower Class than A, any airways in the TMA assume the lower Class inside the TMA. Or, if the airway is Class D but goes through a Class A TMA, the airway changes from D to A in the TMA.
3) No. An aircraft that is not IFR equipped can cross an airway by day in VMC but the pilot still needs an IR and a clearance needs to be obtained from the controlling authority.
4) No. Not of a Class A airway, because you can't cross that VFR (or SVFR) anyway nor of any other en-route airspace that you may be able to transit VFR (e.g. anything Class D) either. A VFR FPL doesn't really do anything with regards airspace transits. You should however file a VFR flight plan on that route for S&R reasons if it takes you over the Irish Sea.

HTH.

Of course even in the UK not all airways are class A. For example IOM, Ireland.

http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...ENR_1_4_en.pdf

Correct, but the second line of the original post implied Class A hence answer geared in that direction and if you note the answer given to question two you'll see that Class D airways aren't actually a surprise to me.

For any Class D airspace, including airways, normal Class D rules apply including the extra privileges conferred by an IMC rating. Any VFR or IFR crossing of a Class D airway needs to be cleared by the appropriate controlling authority.

SVFR is not available in a Class D airway.

Thanks, thats as I thought then.

Where are there class D airways?

Go to this link...

http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...ENR_3_1_en.pdf

Then stick "Class D' in your browser's search/find function and scroll through the results.

No, I wasnt suggesting they were a surprise to you, just adding to the information you gave.

Of course in the British Isles not all countries are part of the UK. For example IOM, Ireland.

Just a couple of points as I am studying for aviation law


A glider is an aircraft isnt it? So a glider pilot can cross an airway in VMC without an IR or clearance?

. Isnt the main reason that it is mandatory to file a flight plan when crossing the UK FIR boundary

Gliders can only cross airways by local agreement/letter of agreement with the ATS provider of the airspace concerned. There is no default position otherwise allowing gliders to cross airways unrestricted.

Here's an example.

See here for when to file a FPL.

Roffa

That could be a hot topic.

As you know for class D access (without crossing an international FIR) the FP has always been accepted verbally, well until recently when certain Scottish airports temporarily decided that they would prefer a FP filed before the flight. So to avoid any confusion, for class D crossing in the UK a FP does not usually need to be filed before the flight (but is "filed" when the airborne request is made). Prudence would suggest that for any flight over hostile / remote terrain or over any expanse of water filing pre flight may be a good idea although personally I have my doubts other than for areas where you know you may not be able to maintain a radio watch.

I don't see why it's a hot topic.

The situation in Scotland is temporary and if you read the link it describes abbreviated flight plans.

So I'm not sure what the point of your post (again) was.

It was a hot topic in another place recently with quite a number of contributions.

The way of threads has always been to add a little to the previous post - sometimes totally on track, sometimes a little off. Some could read the link you gave and think that they needed to file a FP for class D access in the UK which as we all know you dont.

You two are really confusing me

SVFR is available up to Fl 200 in Class D airspace in Ireland is it not?

Available in Ireland, in the airway is it not?

Roffa example of the flight plan (thank you) confirms my original query (should, by the way isnt really accurate wording)

Advised to file over the sea and MUST file crossing the UK FIR boundary

There is no class D in Ireland. There is class D in Northern Ireland.

As has been stated previously SVFR is ONLY available in a control zone (CTR)....nowhere else.

No control zone that I know of goes up to FL200.

OK-was it the case that there used to be Class D in (S) Ireland because I was looking at the Irish Airpilot.

I think a BIG mistake is to get attached to the word "airway". This is a peculiar UK PPL tradition, where instructors use the word "airway" to basically scare students into avoiding Class A airspace. In much of southern Europe, you fly VFR on published airways (IFR routes), because that's where their simple-minded ATC expect to see traffic.

All that matters, when it comes to pilot privileges, is the ICAO airspace class i.e. A,B,C,D,E,F,G.

An "airway" is just a line on the map; it means nothing re pilot privileges.

You cannot enter A without an IR, unless it touches the ground in which case it can be done under SVFR. In practice, a non-IR pilot (or for that matter a pilot who has no license whatever but merely can fly and knows the protocol) could ask for an IFR clearance and - outside the UK, anyway - he would probably get it. But his acceptance of it would be illegal.

And yes to be legal you need to carry the equipment specified by the airspace owner for that flight rule (VFR/IFR etc). Again, no way to check this apart from a ramp check, though a non-8.33 radio might eventually expose you if you were flying above FL195 :)

The filing of a flight plan is another subject. VFR flight plans are generally never looked at by anybody so filing one doesn't get you any clearances.

flythisway, aviation law is generally specific to individual countries. It's no wonder you're confused if you're applying one country's laws or rules across international or FIR boundaries to another country.

The logical assumption for this thread, given that it's in a south westerly direction and to Caernarfon, is that it's wholly within UK airspace. Just because it goes over the Irish Sea doesn't mean it goes into Irish airspace. Go look at a chart.

Neither myself nor anyone else is confusing you, you are being remarkably successful at confusing yourself.

IO540,

The biggest mistakes are to muddy the waters/answers with irrelevancies or info that's incorrect rather than just answering the original question(s) being asked.

Roffa, Ok you say SVFR is not available in an airway, the Irish Air Pilot which is online (year 2006)

http://www.irishaviation.ie/safe_reg...ENR_1_2_en.pdf

says it is--Yes I am sure Aviation Law can be specific but my understanding is that the JAR PPL is for flight within Europe-so should I arrive at the international FIR boundary with my JAR PPL pleading ignoarnce because it was issued in the UK.

Can you see where it can be confusing where an official document says one thing and a stranger on PPrune says something else and that before I even mention again that Fuji thinks the IOM and Ireland are in the UK ! Should you at least know where the UK is before you debate UK Airspace?

flythisway,

Does it? Care to exactly show me where?

I'll just throw the ICAO definition of Special VFR into the mix for you...

Special VFR flight. A VFR flight cleared by air traffic control
to operate within a control zone in meteorological conditions
below VMC.

Now, care also to show me where Ireland has filed a difference with ICAO to allow SVFR in airways as opposed to just in control zones or do you want to rethink your answer?

I can't find where it says SVFR is permissible in airways either. Every refence is to control zones (same as the UK). Perhaps we have a basic misunderstanding of terms here (e.g control zones)?

Maybe there was at some distant point in the past, but not since I started flying in 2001.

What is the Irish Air Pilot? Do you mean the AIP (Aeronautical Information Publication) that you published a link to? Or is it some old magazine?

The 2006 page that you linked to in the AIP is the most recent page.

Also bear in mind, that apart from some very remote spaces over the Atlantic Ocean which you aren't likely to visit in a light aircraft unless seriously lost, all controlled airspace in Ireland is class C.

VFR flight is welcome in class C airspace.

dp

My 2 cents:

File SVFR flight plan and talk to them controllers about what you want to do. Learn to negociate on the radio. (Or get that IFR rating). They won't clear you through and then try to "get" you.

Air law is not (mostly) about safety, it's about nailability. That is if something go wrong they (govt) want to make sure you get nailed. :ugh:

Simples

Irish Air Pilot 2006

2.10. VFR flights which are operated within Classes B, C, and D airspace or as special VFR flights shall
comply with the provisions of Rules 27 to 31.

Hows that Roffa.

Cannot find any reference to prove Isle of Man or Ireland isnt in the UK, but take it from me its schoolboy geography.

flythisway,

I am tempted to say there's only one person being simples here, but that would be a bit rude so I won't.

Irrelevant I'm afraid. All that says is what rules must be followed in certain classes of airspace (e.g. B, C, D) not type of airspace (e.g. CTR, CTA, TMA, airway etc). So yes, you can fly VFR in a Class C airway but it does not imply that SVFR is also available in that Class C airway because...

So, again, please show me where Ireland has filed a difference from ICAO that allows SVFR flight in anything other than a Control Zone*.

* this is easily done.

p.s. making text bigger doesn't prove anything, if I were you I'd stop digging.

Roffa,

I've come to the conclusion that flythisway is a troll. They ask a question, and then argue that the answer they get is wrong.

Doesn't sound to me like someone who has come looking for an answer...most likely looking for some entertainment.

What entertainment trolls get, I've never understood.

dp

Look, I appreciate Roffa and DP that you are on here to demonstrate your superior knowledge to others and feel threatened when challenged, I on the other hand am not here for that purpose, I am actually trying to learn something if you can help with that please do so, if not why not move on.

I may be a very inexperienced beginner but I do have a reasonable command of the English language and an understanding of where the UK actually is (a point neither of you have chosen to comment on).

Quote:

---

VFR flights which are operated within Classes B, C, and D airspace or as special VFR flights shall
comply with the provisions of Rules 27 to 31.

---

The above statement mentions B, C and D airspace and also states thyat SVFR flights within that airspace shall comply etc.. That suggest to me that SVFR flights must be allowable in that type of airspace-that is how it is written, I am just repeating how its written thats all.
DP you said that all controlled airsace in Ireland is Class C so from the above information taken from the Irish Air Pilot it would seem that VFR & SVFR flight is permissable in the Irish Airway system. It may be that that information is out of date, i do not really know but you dont have to resort to name calling to make a point--just publish the AIP section or link that replaces the 2006 info i have

By the way

Could that be, and yes that is a question, because as DP says all Irish Comtrolled airspace is Class C so it is not in fact a difference? The difference is all Irish CAS is Class C which possibly brings about the anomally.

I haven't because it's irrelevant to the question you asked. Only a troll looking for an argument would seek to argue about something that was nothing to do with their original question.

I've already stated that that is the latest info. That page has not changed since 2006, but you've not listened. Roffa has already told you that the class of airspace is irrelevant to question asked, but you've also refused to listen to that, and simply tried to argue. Very troll like behaviour

I've already told you that there is no such publicaton as "the Irish Air Pilot". What you are quoting from is the Aeronautical Information Publication. But again you're refused to listen and keep refering to the Irish Air Pilot. Very troll like behaviour.

The most sensible thing you've posted so far...and I shall heed your advice ;)

Lots of text but no content of any value

Flythisway

I am prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt because I hope you are an aspiring pilot. (or perhaps one already).

Therefore take it from me if you continue in this vein you will not make any friends here and people will simply ignore you.

While a little friendly banter may take place between us old timers many of us know each other quite well. PPRuNe is not really about point scoring but gentle debate of issues of interest to pilots. You will find that there are some incredibly knowledgeable people on here (like Roffa, and DP where it comes to all matters Irish). That does not of course always mean they are right, but do try and engage constructively in the debate.

In so far as your comments about the IofM FWIW of course you are correct. The IofM and the CIs are not part of the UK for political purposes but are of course part of the BI for geographical purposes. For that matter neither is Eire whereas Northern Ireland is part of the UK. I think we are all well aware of the distinction and have debated in the past some of the pecularities of the administration of their airspace. Posts on PPRuNe are not always going to be highly accurate and technical pieces of word craft as most of us cant be bothered although where it is the subject of the actual debate we try and be correct.

In short forgive me but I would love to have you take part in the debate but you are best not too come across as a complete troll, because if you do, you will simply be ignored. :)

Just add Ireland and you are nearly there with admitting you were wrong, its easy, try it!

I have plenty of experience of forums thank you and I am well familiar with people who really do believe they are knowledeable and become very uncomfortable when challenged.

I am not here to make friends, just to learn, if you are uncomfortable with free speech, you and 'your friends' know what they can do dont they?

Flythisway

Fair enough.

.. and I am frequently wrong, I have no problem with that.

As to coming here to learn, I think you have already got that horribly wrong. I dont see it says that anywhere on the tin. :)

Anyway good luck to you, even if for the time being I cant take you seriously.

Now I really do admire your experience and knowledge but I bet i am wrong more often!

flythisway,

That made me smile. Yes, I'm threatened but will be brave and take your "I am actually trying to learn something if you can help with that please do so" at face value.

I'll say it one last time...

Look at what you've written where it's highlighted in bold above. That is where you are going wrong in your understanding.

Yes, SVFR could be permitted in any of those classes of airspace mentioned but only in one type of airspace, a control zone. That is implicit in the very definition of what SVFR is, see post further back for that to save me copying it again. Oh what the heck! Here it is...

Special VFR flight. A VFR flight cleared by air traffic control
to operate within a control zone in meteorological conditions
below VMC.

Now to the best of my knowledge, and you haven't indicated otherwise, that ICAO definition of SVFR flight is the same in both the airspace of the UK (Scotland, England, Wales, (IOM!) & Northern Ireland) and also the airspace of the Republic of Ireland. So you will not get a SVFR clearance in an airway or a control area (terminal or otherwise) the airspace of which by definition will always start at a level above the surface but just in a control zone, the airspace of which by definition will always start at the surface.

I don't think I can make it any clearer than that and if you choose not to agree then that's your prerogative but, I'm afraid, to put it simply you will be wrong in your understanding.

flythisway I have a question for you. If apples are green and grass is green does that mean that apples are made of grass? That's essentially the same as your problem here.

Some CTRs are class D and some CTAs are class D. Are CTRs and CTAs the same thing? No, they most definitely are not. (I am of course assuming you understand the difference between a control zone (CTR) and control area (CTA).) SVFR is only permitted in a CTR.

Read pararagh 2.4 of the link that you posted and then think is SVFR permissible in an airway? You'll find that the only logical (and therefore correct) answer is no, SVFR is not permitted in an airway.

AFAIK in the IofM the rule is the same as the UK ANO, SVFR is only permitted in a control zone.

This is an interesting definition, given that without an Instrument qualification,10k vis is required for SVFR in a CTR, but in Class D only 5k is required for VFR. Thus SVFR can have higher weather minima than VFR.

UK SVFR works the same as everywhere else (allowing access to Class A zones and allowing access in reduced weather). HOWEVER, a UK PPL has a restriction that imposes much higher visibility minima for using SVFR. This restriction effectively makes the 'bad weather' aspect irrelevant. For IR and IMCr pilots, SVFR allows VFR flights access to zones in less than VFR conditions.

As mentioned the above definition is the basic ICAO one of SVFR.

The MATS one says...

Special VFR Flight A flight made at any time in a control zone which is Class A airspace or made in any other control zone in IMC or at night; in
respect of which the appropriate air traffic control unit has given
permission for the flight to be made in accordance with special
instructions given by that unit instead of in accordance with the
Instrument Flight Rules; and in the course of which the aircraft
complies with any instructions given by that unit and remains clear
of cloud and with the surface in sight. (RoA)

The UK AIP syas this.

As mm_flynn says, it's primarily UK pilot licensing that adds any more restrictive minima to SVFR than ICAO might have otherwise intended although as stated in the AIP there is an overriding minima below which no SVFR clearances will be issued by ATC. Night is perhaps also significant as in the UK all flying at night must be in accordance with IFR.

Had a cracking day yesterday to Caernarfon.

Departed from class D airspace, after asking for IFR departure (non-airways) but was given SVFR (low cloud), climbed up to FL80 on top, cleared the front moving south, bobbed down to FL60 over the Irish Sea to avoid the airway and superb vis over Irish Sea and Wales.

A little disconcerting being 25 miles + over the sea but as I keep telling myself (as does everyone else), the aircraft doesn't know its flying over the sea, so no reason why there should be any problems! Still, doesn't stop you listening to every change in engine note!