Spinning - recommendations please
 

Hi everyone...

I'm working my way through the PPL syllabus and have just completed stalling.

Although I've been told it's not a mandatory exercise, I'd like to experience full spins / spin recovery however the aircraft I'm training in is not approved for this procedure. The local school I'm with does not have an aircraft that is.

Can anyone recommend a school or professional independent instructor in Hampshire, Berkshire or Dorset areas (or just outside) where I could do this? The main objective is to use this as a learning exercise in order to understand the spinning process and how to recover. What I don't want is a gun-ho pilot who will use the opportunity just to thrill themselves or impress onlookers with a full aerobatic routine, with me sat wondering what on earth's going on!

Look forward to your constructive recommendations. Thanks for your help in advance.

Hi EGHOboi,

Your attitude seems right, which is a good start for spin training. I cannot offer specific locations for spin training near you, but perhaps a little advice.

Though there are a number of aircraft approved in the "utility' category, and therefore likely approved for spins, I have found the Cessna 150/152/172 very good for spin training. Look for a school whoh uses these aircraft. I think it's entirely fine to take a side trak from your main school for a little extra training in the aircraft type capable of the manuevers you would likt to learn.

I completely agree that you are entitled to the training you want. Explain exactly what you want, and expect to get it. If what you want is an hour or two of one turn spins, there's no reason that cannot be provided to you by a compotent instructor. You need not suffer undesired aerobatics - if it happens, the pilot you're flying with is not professional or compotent - don't go again with them!

Be resaaured that it is a certification requirement for any of these types that it must not be possible to obtain an unrecoverable spin with any use of the controls. Most spin approved type will get themselves at least somewhat recovered just by letting go. Of course, a properly executed recovery is what you're there to learn, and is what should be done, but don't be afraid of it!

Other aircraft typs I've been required to spin during flight tests really do require a deliberate spin recovery, or the recovery would be (okay, was, on a few occasions!) very delayed and sloppy, with exceedances of other limitations possible. In a 150/152/172, you'd really have to be well away from the proper recovery technique to creat an unsafe situation. It will look scary the first few times though!

Don't forget to fly the plane, don't let it fly you!

Have fun!

Pilot DAR

Spinning....
 

For it to be done properly.....

try these guys.....

Ultimate High - Flying School, Air Displays and corporate entertainment

Single spin trips right through to full aeros training and beyond!

HTH

DD

I too recommend the Ultimate High guys at Kemble :ok:

I'd say it depends on what you want to learn. If you're doing your ppl on a 172 and you're concerned about accidental spin, then go spin one of those. I'd suggest more emphasis is placed on the incipient stage of the spin in this case, though wise to have a look at a developed one too. Or if you just want the experience of watching the world rotate rapidly infront of you for a while, go and spin a fully aerobatic beastie for 5 or 6 turns.

EGHOboi - Check your PM's

The piper PA-38 tomahawk makes a good spin trainer. They are not forgiving, but will recover, as long as you use the correct methods to recover.

So add schools with PA38's to your list as well, I am an instructor based at Cranfield and would be more than happy to teach you, but I think its a bit out of your way

I disagree with all the above.

Let the poster finish his PPL first under the control of one school and once he gets his PPL, go on to the advanced training he wishes.

By then he could decide to go for spin training, for IMC (the weather is a bigger killer) or any other training which is appropriate for him.

The syllabus was not written the way it is for nothing. Furthermore to advocate changing types of planes, airport and school procedures half way, to then return to the original ones is stupid.

It will cost more to the student and delay his training.

One step at the time....

I can remember having the same urge when i did my stalls. My instructor showed me an incipient spin and a spiral dive, but i continued on my quest for more knowledge on stalls. Nevertheless, I now feel that spin training so early on in my flying career would not have benefitted me, especially not if it had to be done in a different location by unknown instructors in different planes with different RT and different school and airport procedures. The only way to do this would be if your current school was willing to insert an hour of spin training in a plane you knew, but even then the benefits would be minor at this stage

I agree with everyone really but just in the right order. Finish your PPL first, then find the money to convert to another type and do the spin training at the same time. That is exactly what I did.

At the end of my PPL I had deposit money resting with the school. I transferred it to 5 hrs conversion and spin training.

Thanks for your helpful comments. My PPL Air Pilots Manual 1 (Flying Training) includes the full spin as exercise 11b - just after stalling / incipient spin and before going into the circuit. It does state that it's not a mandatory exercise which I appreciate. With respect to recent replies in this thread I guess a good question to answer is; when do you think it's best to do these - at this stage or after the course is complete? Could be useful for other PPRuNe PPL wannabes to read in the future...

EGHboi
 

I had exactly the same feelings as you,but I finished my PPL first then did 25 mins in a Citabria spin training,then about a year later 40 mins spins in an Extra.
Spins are quite disconcerting ,and you will feel very disoriented at first.
My aim was not to get into a situation that I could not get out of,and primarily not to get into a spin in the first place!

As mentioned do it with an experienced instructor,there are lots in East Anglia although that is not much help to you,but as suggested,I'm sure there must be excellent places to do it nearer to you.
Lister:)

I did some spin training in a PA38 at the Highlands Flying School post PPL, which included recovery from fully developed spins.

It feels like doing a backward somersault while falling over a cliff. A big breakfast beforehand is not recommended.

Expect to look pale and feel ill afterwards.

There are many of us here who had to do spins as part of their PPL. The reasons why they were removed as a mandatory element are well documented. However, when they were removed the requirement from slow speed awareness training was increased. The theory was that students (at least PPL students) should be given far greater depth of knowledge in how to avoid spins/stall etc rather than just learning how to recover. After all, the most likely scenario for an inexperience pilot to get into a spin is the base/final turn at about 500ft or so; spin recovery technique in this environment is rather academic.
Intentional spinning is a bit like instructors encouraging students to 'play around' within the stall; what's the point? These are flight regimes that the inexperienced should be recognising the onset of and subsequently avoiding.
I'm not sure the average PPL student would gain much from a short lesson in spinning and it is probably something you should do after your PPL, along with other continuous learning skills. That said, if you wish to burn some money........

PS. The PA38 does indeed spin well. It can also bite. I can think of far more benign aircraft I would wish to use to demonstrate spins. :oh:

If you want to learn about spins and spin recovery 25 mins really is not enough. For the first 5/6 spins the world goes around the windscreen pretty quickly, only from number seven onwards does it appear to slow down enough to feel you have control.

Its not just the spinning that counts, learn all about it, despite it being considered dangerous and at least one person here indicated he fell queasy it is in fact a stable flight condition which in a well manufactured and balanced aircraft will respond in a quite precise way.

For anyone that has or is thinking about spinning a PA38, have you ever found time to look back as you enter the spin (not recommended if you are in control). I have spun PA38's twice, once in command and the second time as a passenger where I was told to look back at the fin. As an engineer that is something I never want to see again and I will never spin a PA38 again. :ooh: I have never seen a fin move so much without failing and I now understand why the fin on a PA38 requires so many inspections and modifications.:sad:

I'll chip in my 2 cents worth. I've spun Chipmunks, 172s, Citabrias and Tomahawks, and taught spinning in gliders - Blanik L13 and Lark IS28B2.

I agree with Karl about spins in the Tomahawk (although I have never looked at the tail while doing so) - it was by far the most uncomfortable and unpleasant spin I have ever experienced.

However, I feel strongly that even if spin training is no longer mandatory, students should be encouraged to try spinning with a qualified instructor, preferably in the type they are learning on, if it is certified for spins.

For many years, I could not imagine how a pilot could accidentally get into a spin, until one day, while my student was thermalling at 35kts, with half flap, about 5kts above the stall, we suddenly became inverted and were entering a spin.

What was interesting was that the student, who was a "natural" pilot (quick to learn, flew precisely, understood the theory, etc.), had not yet seen spins and was completely shocked and had absolutely no idea what had happened until I explained it to him.

So EGHOboi, go and get some spin training and then if you want to expand your skills, during instrument training, try spinning under the hood and recovering using partial panel!

The question was: Should a ppl student who has just done stalls go to another school NOW to do some spin training (apparently he must have asked his own instructor or school and they won't or can't oblige).

The answer should honestly be: All in good time, now is not the time to change your rhythm.

I agree spin training is good (though preferably not in a PA38) but i strongly suggest you finish the PPL first and then take it up

If you are lo0king at the Berkshire Hampshire region then Blackbushe Aviation at Blackbushe have an Aerobat they use for Aeros.

I bought a spinning session for a PPL friend who had trained on a Pa28 and he enjoyed it tremendously.

I did my spin training in a Yak-52. The first spin was eye-popping... I knew the theory but never expected it to be so quick and steep (it was about 60° nose down but at first seemed almost vertical). The second one was somewhat easier. From the third time on, it was pure enjoyment. Although Yak-52 is quite dangerous in inexperienced hands and will not get out of a spin by itself, it can safely do all kinds of spins - steep or flat, upright or inverted, and with the right technique recovers easily and reliably from all of them.
After the Yak, a spin in a Cessna was nothing to write home about.

I'd take issue with both of those points.

Firstly, the vast majority of problems associated with sickness experienced by those unused to aerobatics are caused by an empty stomach - anxiety, combined with a lot of unused stomach acid (or even worse, a couple of cups of coffee and nothing else) swilling about in there is bound to cause a degree of nausea. Personally, my ideal start to the perfect day of aerobatics involves a Full English breakfast, but at the very least I'd recommend something moderately filling. Cassidy strongly advocates the use of porridge as the breakfast of aerobatic champions; Sod that, I say - go for an egg banjo as a minimum - you can work up to Unlimited Porridge later.

Secondly, having dealt with the basic nutritional issues, the fact is that people often think themselves into a state of nausea - so called "fearful anticipation" - not helped by comments such as those above by DH. You shouldn't emerge from the aircraft after your first spinning trip "pale and feeling ill afterwards" - you should emerge with a stupid grin, probably rather sweaty, and wondering (a) what all the doom and gloom was about (b) that it was actually bloody good fun and (c) when can you go again?

Failure to achieve (a),(b) and (c) would largely be down to a combination of the instructor and the airframe. I would recommend seeking out an instructor for whom spinning, and aerobatics in general, are second nature. In order for you to be relaxed, you need to be in the company of someone who has the experience and ability that *no* matter how badly you manage to botch the affair, they will be able to sort it out in short order. The choice of airframe is also important - if you want to experience the maximum amount of spin training for your money, then choose something aerobatic with an acceptable degree of performance (Cessna Aerobats need not apply, sorry) - otherwise most of your money will be spent having some wheezing spamcan ponderously claw itself back up to height at your expense.

Given your stated location requirements, I would say get yourself down to White Waltham and book a session with Cassidy or one of the other excellent aerobatic instructors there - you will get a thorough ground briefing explaining the theory of, and a lucid, measured practical training in the practise of spinning in a capable airframe.

Oh, and the food is brilliant as well.

I think it would probably be best to finish your PPL then give consideration to spin training. Most if not all decide after the lessons on slow flight and incipient spins that is enough for them and would much rather the prevention method as suppose to the cure. I came from a sailplane back ground and it was compulsory to complete spin training before you could fly solo although the sailplane I went solo on was fairly spin resistant (T21) however the Polish Puchaz spun very well and was great fun and our CFI of the day was a great advocate of spin training when we attained a height of 3000ft AGL on a training flight. We were lucky at our club to receive a spin training day from one of the BGA safety officers and he could spin the Puchaz from a winch launch which looking back now I think is crazy considering we normally reached around 1200ft aal from a winch launch!! As other posters have alluded to spinning is not a big killer post PPL more so weather or VFR into IMC. Spinning still kills pilots and most would be from failed engines on take off and an attempt at turning back. There was a video of a Tiger Moth with a wing walker and the said aircraft experienced a loss of power on take off and the pilot attempted a turn back and stalled and spun in resulting in instant death of the wing walker and the pilot succumbing to his injuries later. The other scenario is engine failure and an attempt to stretch the glide or low slow turns. Rant over good luck with your PPL it's great fun and if you want to experience spinning in the purest form don't discount a trip to your local gliding club where I am sure any of the instructors would be happy to show you spinning.:ok:
Regards MF26

Well said eharding!! I especially agree with the idea of a full english. Though my preference would be steak or curry. The point about a high performance aircraft is equally valid for 2 reasons... 1) eharding needs this to get airborne in the first place, and 2) maximum effective use of instructional time by recovering lost height (or just gaining it in the first place) quickly. I think the RAF selected the bigger engine for their Bulldogs for reason 2.

.... And yes having someone with you who knows what they're doing when it comes to sorting out your mistakes is a bonus. Better than hitting the ground. Hence my earlier comment about incipient spin recovery was in similar vein.

Personally, I'd spin during the course. I did this during my ATPL course when it was mandatory to spin. We did about 4 or 5 in a T67c.... Then spent 2 hours looping and rolling. It was a nice break from flying under the screens.

As others have said - it's probably best to finish your PPL first, and then do a sort of Advanced PPL package somewhere.

Spinning is great fun and surprisingly hard to do accurately, but it's not the only thing that improves your awareness of what an aircraft can do, and your ability to deal with it. If you're going up with an aerobatics instructor, here's a few other things you can think of:

- Fully developed idle power stall with the yoke/stick to the aft stops, trying to keep the aircraft level with just the rudder.
- Departure stall (full power stall with a really high nose up attitude)
- Approach stall (the turn to final stall/spin scenario, with not enough speed, not enough power, not enough bank, yoke/stick back and helping the aircraft turn with the rudder)
- Steep turns up to the limits of the aircraft - usually 75 degrees AoB = 4G.
- Accelerated stall = stall in a steep turn
- Wingovers at 90 degree AoB
- Extreme side- and forward slips (with full rudder application)
As an "awareness" session, all this can be combined in one flight of an hour, maybe an hour and a half.

Got to warn you though: if you enjoy this, the next steps are typically barrel rolls, aileron rolls and loops, followed by a cuban eight and then you're hooked on aerobatics...:ok:

As to locations, Bournemouth Flying Club has 3 aerobatic aircraft you can train in and they are local to you, as I think do Old Sarum near Salisbury

pilot DAR do you know by chance if the DA-20 katana is cleared for spinning as spin recovery is mentioned in the handbook but doesnt say if its cleared or not ????:E

as a 35 hour ppl student ive covered stalls and been told about spin recovery in theory but as i dont fly an aircraft cleared for spins have never tried it but by what ive heard it sounds quite scary at least at first! personally id rather be trained on it early on so that during solo flights if i got a bit too slow and the worst did happen id know wat to do and what to expect and hopefully not push up the daisies!!:E

Studen

The problem with spinning is that no two spins maybe the same. ie same aircraft different loading and different spin. Even same type aircraft, different aircraft, same loading different spin.

You are somewhat in the unknown hence the caution. If you spin at low level chances are you wont recover hence I believe the reason to only go to the incipient stage.

Should you spin for real? The answer has to be a resounding yes. In the same way should you take a car onto a skid pan? Yes it makes you a more confident driver to operate beyond the realms of normal driving grip.

The same goes for aircraft but please do it with plenty of air below the aircraft.

Pace

For what it's worth, I'm PPL and gliders, bit over 100hrs in each, aeros trained and certified for both.

Don't be in too much of a rush to do spinning - personally I got spun pretty early in my career - I performed a badly hamfisted, skidded base turn and got taken up immediately to have the consequences of such action demonstrated. Effective demonstration, but it was a tad overwhelming and did scare the bejesus out of me, consequently stalling my flight training for a while therafter. I had maybe 5hrs at the time (and was being a very fast learner up to that point).

DO however do spinning. All the awareness in the world is fantastic, as is the theory, but it can't beat having been there. I wouldn't necessarily wait until the PPL is complete, but would make sure you're a good way along the track, and really comfortable in the aircraft - to better be able to appreciate what's going on.

I personally REALLY doubt that anyone finding themselves in a spin with only the instructions and no practical experience will come up with a useful response before the ground intervenes. And yes, the spin off final turn will kill you, no matter how good your recoveries are. It's not just about the recovery, but about calibrating your mind to what happens, and what it takes to enter a real spin - I personally don't believe incipients cut it, they're a little too canned, and you're 'cognitiviely primed' to expect it. The sort of abuse required to unintentionally generate a spin would suggest sufficient distraction that I'd doubt the ability of the pilot to suddenly snap to, recognise and correct the incipient.

I'd also recommend sticking to a representative type - I can confirm from (limited) experience that spinning/recovery an extra (for example), is a rather different experience to a typical GA type like a Robin (my regular spin-buddy). Sure fly the hot ship, it's a bundle of fun, but I'd question the learning merit.

P.S. That's another spinable type for you if you can find one - Robin 2160.

Spin recovery in the UK is, as we all know, is not included in the PPL course, It used to be in my day, and gave me a lot of confidence. I think the envelope of the aircraft you are flying should be second nature to you, I agree, if you are in the circuit, you've no chance, but there is a possibility that you could find yourself in that position in IMC conditions, you will need to react immediately, and you can only do that through training....I recommend spin recovery training as soon as you get your PPL.

If you are interested or curious about spinning, then getting an hour or two of spinning lessons in another type of aircraft will not upset your training. You will not suddenly become a rated Extra/Yak/T67 pilot with incorrect checklists imprinted in your brain.

After having a few spins demonstrated by a competant instructor, and then learning the correct methods of recovery and both the incipient and fully developed spins - you will have more confidence with stalls, steep turns and manoeuvering in the glide. If done now, before the end of your PPL, it would not harm your training. In fact, it might help it.

Apologies for not being pilot_DAR but anyhow; so far as I know the DA-20 is certified against JAR-VLA (now known as CS.VLA) which requires a spinning assessment during flight testing (and hence advice in the POH) but doesn't normally permit a clearance for deliberate spinning. So, unless anybody knows better, the answer's no.

Non aerobatic spinning clearance programmes are fairly cursory - maybe 60-80 spins in total, and whilst basic safety will have been assured, I'd not attempt to spin the aircraft off the back of one without treating it as another flight test programme.


Re: the original question, before it went belly-up, Old Sarum Flying Club had a couple of Bulldogs and some ex-test pilots on the staff who could do some excellent spinning instruction (I did my last refresher there in one of them, and got excellent value for money). I'm not sure either the pilots or specific instructors are there now so I'd try something like a Tomahawk or Super Cub at Thruxton with, if he's available, somebody like Bob Cole, who is also a test pilot (and a difficult blighter, but that doesn't stop him being a superb instructor).

G

I thought the PA 38 was no longer cleared for spinning, after it was found to have some 'interesting' attributes whilst recovering.
ie sometimes wouldn't recover with SSR or recovered into a spin in the opposite direction! (Very susceptible to the slighest aileron input during recovery)

Just rumour control I think - it scared a few people, so stories start to circulate.

G

Right, first up, hard hat on!

I think that there are a few too many 'look at me' hero's on here. It does not matter a jot how well an aeroplane spins after 3 or 4 turns, recovery is still possible with enough height.

It is VITAL to be on intimate terms with recognising the incipient stage and being able to prevent a spin from developing.

Spin with height......you live!.........................Spin on base turn.......you die!

It is as simple as that.

I agree that at some stage in their training some students may wish to 'have a look' at spinning, but I can not agree that knowing how to recover from a fully developed spin is of any use at all (at least not in a fairly modern benign trainer type of a/c).

You have to be doing something really foolish to get a modern a/c to spin these days, and if that means you spin at low level then knowing how to recover from a fully developed spin will not save you. If you do something stupid at high level and enter a full spin then close the throttle and let go of the controls!

You do not have to break a leg to know that it WILL hurt. It is the same for spinning, you do not HAVE to do it to know that it can kill you.

My advice to the original poster would be not to worry too much about learning how to spin and recover, but focus on learning how to recognise the signs that lead up to a stall/spin and how to recover confidently and safely.

Fly safe :E

Personally, I thought everybody was quite sensible.

Strikes me that there's no harm in seeing the spin also.

Reasonable working rule, I'll grant you (ditto climbout after a go-around, which is an equal killer).

But it does give an understanding of what you're dealing with - the incipient stage being nonetheless more important as you say.

No, centralise them.

No, but it does no harm to know what it looks like.

Yes, I agree - but I still see no good argument against an interested student experiencing a few spins.

G

Genghis...........

You have replied to my post in a balanced way and I am quite inclined to agree with you. There is certainly no harm in I often used to demo/teach spin recovery to students who wanted to see it. I still maintain (of course!) that the real benefit is knowing how to avoid it in the first place!

:E

Used to fly

Many moons ago I used to race cars formula ford, Clubmans and a bit in formula 3.

It is only through driving the car beyond the limit that you can be comfortable driving the car on the limit. That is the only way you can fully appreciate what is happening and what is going to happen with the car. You knew that if the back broke away how far the tail could slide out before you lost it. You knew you could hold that point still in control. Not the fast way but a thorough understanding of how to extract the fastest lap time and to have the confience to do so.

I know a driver who considered himself to be ultra safe. He followed the speed limits had an excellent safety record, drove with care ......until.
One evening he hit a patch of ice, lost the car big time. He and his wife ended up in hospital for 3 months. He knew no better.

Its the same way with an aircraft! " Its only when you push the limits that you find what lies beyond" ! is a favourite saying which covers many aspects of life.

Obviously you do not want to achieve what you are learning to try to avoid ie killing yourself in an aircraft practicing how to avoid killing yourself. But in the right aircraft with the right instructor spin training should be done.

Infact a course in aerobatics is even better to allow you to fully understand what the aircraft can do and will make you a safer, more confident pilot.

We can train forever to the incipent stage with the idea that by doing so we will avoid the worst. The problem with that is the worst strikes when you least expect it and are least prepared for it the same as in a racing car.

There is an argument in twin flying to avoid full stalls the worry that by trying to recover adding differential power could cause a spin. Differential power either through mismanagement or one engine missing a beat.

With my examiner we take the twin high 8000-10000 feet and put it through its pace :)

Pace

Pace....

Sorry but I don't agree.

Also a few lessons in spin recovery will probably be a dim and distant memory when the time comes, and if low level......no use whatsoever!

Spin training and currency is vital if you are an aerobatic pilot, otherwise simply an interesting and academic exercise.

I know that if I drive (or fly) with my eyes shut, I will crash!....I don't need to try it tho'!!

:E

There are also the foolhardy out there who will try and replicate that which they have seen. Sometimes, it is best to point out that "there be dragons over there" and leave things at that. I would much prefer to spend an hour's worth of my student's money teaching him/her how to recognise the symptoms and recovery from incipient etc with maximum efficiency.

UsedtoFly

So you consider a red bull racing pilot or an experienced test pilot and an ordinary pilot both in the same type of aircraft stand the same chance of avoiding a spin or recovering from one if accidently entered into?

I agree with you that there have probably been more pilots lost practicing spins than having them for real. I also agree that the time you are most likely to have a spin is the time you are least likely to get out of it.

I do not believe you are a better pilot by limiting your knowledge on what your aircraft is capable of or can do.

Pace

It is worth asking at this point why your student is learning to fly?

Is it simply to be qualified to pole an aeroplane from A to B with minimal hassle, or to understand and participate in the joy of flying. The answer may strongly influence the way you want to treat their training in this regard.

G