Well said eharding!! I especially agree with the idea of a full english. Though my preference would be steak or curry. The point about a high performance aircraft is equally valid for 2 reasons... 1) eharding needs this to get airborne in the first place, and 2) maximum effective use of instructional time by recovering lost height (or just gaining it in the first place) quickly. I think the RAF selected the bigger engine for their Bulldogs for reason 2.

.... And yes having someone with you who knows what they're doing when it comes to sorting out your mistakes is a bonus. Better than hitting the ground. Hence my earlier comment about incipient spin recovery was in similar vein.

Personally, I'd spin during the course. I did this during my ATPL course when it was mandatory to spin. We did about 4 or 5 in a T67c.... Then spent 2 hours looping and rolling. It was a nice break from flying under the screens.

As others have said - it's probably best to finish your PPL first, and then do a sort of Advanced PPL package somewhere.

Spinning is great fun and surprisingly hard to do accurately, but it's not the only thing that improves your awareness of what an aircraft can do, and your ability to deal with it. If you're going up with an aerobatics instructor, here's a few other things you can think of:

- Fully developed idle power stall with the yoke/stick to the aft stops, trying to keep the aircraft level with just the rudder.
- Departure stall (full power stall with a really high nose up attitude)
- Approach stall (the turn to final stall/spin scenario, with not enough speed, not enough power, not enough bank, yoke/stick back and helping the aircraft turn with the rudder)
- Steep turns up to the limits of the aircraft - usually 75 degrees AoB = 4G.
- Accelerated stall = stall in a steep turn
- Wingovers at 90 degree AoB
- Extreme side- and forward slips (with full rudder application)
As an "awareness" session, all this can be combined in one flight of an hour, maybe an hour and a half.

Got to warn you though: if you enjoy this, the next steps are typically barrel rolls, aileron rolls and loops, followed by a cuban eight and then you're hooked on aerobatics...:ok:

As to locations, Bournemouth Flying Club has 3 aerobatic aircraft you can train in and they are local to you, as I think do Old Sarum near Salisbury

pilot DAR do you know by chance if the DA-20 katana is cleared for spinning as spin recovery is mentioned in the handbook but doesnt say if its cleared or not ????:E

as a 35 hour ppl student ive covered stalls and been told about spin recovery in theory but as i dont fly an aircraft cleared for spins have never tried it but by what ive heard it sounds quite scary at least at first! personally id rather be trained on it early on so that during solo flights if i got a bit too slow and the worst did happen id know wat to do and what to expect and hopefully not push up the daisies!!:E

Studen

The problem with spinning is that no two spins maybe the same. ie same aircraft different loading and different spin. Even same type aircraft, different aircraft, same loading different spin.

You are somewhat in the unknown hence the caution. If you spin at low level chances are you wont recover hence I believe the reason to only go to the incipient stage.

Should you spin for real? The answer has to be a resounding yes. In the same way should you take a car onto a skid pan? Yes it makes you a more confident driver to operate beyond the realms of normal driving grip.

The same goes for aircraft but please do it with plenty of air below the aircraft.

Pace

For what it's worth, I'm PPL and gliders, bit over 100hrs in each, aeros trained and certified for both.

Don't be in too much of a rush to do spinning - personally I got spun pretty early in my career - I performed a badly hamfisted, skidded base turn and got taken up immediately to have the consequences of such action demonstrated. Effective demonstration, but it was a tad overwhelming and did scare the bejesus out of me, consequently stalling my flight training for a while therafter. I had maybe 5hrs at the time (and was being a very fast learner up to that point).

DO however do spinning. All the awareness in the world is fantastic, as is the theory, but it can't beat having been there. I wouldn't necessarily wait until the PPL is complete, but would make sure you're a good way along the track, and really comfortable in the aircraft - to better be able to appreciate what's going on.

I personally REALLY doubt that anyone finding themselves in a spin with only the instructions and no practical experience will come up with a useful response before the ground intervenes. And yes, the spin off final turn will kill you, no matter how good your recoveries are. It's not just about the recovery, but about calibrating your mind to what happens, and what it takes to enter a real spin - I personally don't believe incipients cut it, they're a little too canned, and you're 'cognitiviely primed' to expect it. The sort of abuse required to unintentionally generate a spin would suggest sufficient distraction that I'd doubt the ability of the pilot to suddenly snap to, recognise and correct the incipient.

I'd also recommend sticking to a representative type - I can confirm from (limited) experience that spinning/recovery an extra (for example), is a rather different experience to a typical GA type like a Robin (my regular spin-buddy). Sure fly the hot ship, it's a bundle of fun, but I'd question the learning merit.

P.S. That's another spinable type for you if you can find one - Robin 2160.

Spin recovery in the UK is, as we all know, is not included in the PPL course, It used to be in my day, and gave me a lot of confidence. I think the envelope of the aircraft you are flying should be second nature to you, I agree, if you are in the circuit, you've no chance, but there is a possibility that you could find yourself in that position in IMC conditions, you will need to react immediately, and you can only do that through training....I recommend spin recovery training as soon as you get your PPL.

If you are interested or curious about spinning, then getting an hour or two of spinning lessons in another type of aircraft will not upset your training. You will not suddenly become a rated Extra/Yak/T67 pilot with incorrect checklists imprinted in your brain.

After having a few spins demonstrated by a competant instructor, and then learning the correct methods of recovery and both the incipient and fully developed spins - you will have more confidence with stalls, steep turns and manoeuvering in the glide. If done now, before the end of your PPL, it would not harm your training. In fact, it might help it.

Apologies for not being pilot_DAR but anyhow; so far as I know the DA-20 is certified against JAR-VLA (now known as CS.VLA) which requires a spinning assessment during flight testing (and hence advice in the POH) but doesn't normally permit a clearance for deliberate spinning. So, unless anybody knows better, the answer's no.

Non aerobatic spinning clearance programmes are fairly cursory - maybe 60-80 spins in total, and whilst basic safety will have been assured, I'd not attempt to spin the aircraft off the back of one without treating it as another flight test programme.


Re: the original question, before it went belly-up, Old Sarum Flying Club had a couple of Bulldogs and some ex-test pilots on the staff who could do some excellent spinning instruction (I did my last refresher there in one of them, and got excellent value for money). I'm not sure either the pilots or specific instructors are there now so I'd try something like a Tomahawk or Super Cub at Thruxton with, if he's available, somebody like Bob Cole, who is also a test pilot (and a difficult blighter, but that doesn't stop him being a superb instructor).

G

I thought the PA 38 was no longer cleared for spinning, after it was found to have some 'interesting' attributes whilst recovering.
ie sometimes wouldn't recover with SSR or recovered into a spin in the opposite direction! (Very susceptible to the slighest aileron input during recovery)

Just rumour control I think - it scared a few people, so stories start to circulate.

G

Right, first up, hard hat on!

I think that there are a few too many 'look at me' hero's on here. It does not matter a jot how well an aeroplane spins after 3 or 4 turns, recovery is still possible with enough height.

It is VITAL to be on intimate terms with recognising the incipient stage and being able to prevent a spin from developing.

Spin with height......you live!.........................Spin on base turn.......you die!

It is as simple as that.

I agree that at some stage in their training some students may wish to 'have a look' at spinning, but I can not agree that knowing how to recover from a fully developed spin is of any use at all (at least not in a fairly modern benign trainer type of a/c).

You have to be doing something really foolish to get a modern a/c to spin these days, and if that means you spin at low level then knowing how to recover from a fully developed spin will not save you. If you do something stupid at high level and enter a full spin then close the throttle and let go of the controls!

You do not have to break a leg to know that it WILL hurt. It is the same for spinning, you do not HAVE to do it to know that it can kill you.

My advice to the original poster would be not to worry too much about learning how to spin and recover, but focus on learning how to recognise the signs that lead up to a stall/spin and how to recover confidently and safely.

Fly safe :E

Personally, I thought everybody was quite sensible.

Strikes me that there's no harm in seeing the spin also.

Reasonable working rule, I'll grant you (ditto climbout after a go-around, which is an equal killer).

But it does give an understanding of what you're dealing with - the incipient stage being nonetheless more important as you say.

No, centralise them.

No, but it does no harm to know what it looks like.

Yes, I agree - but I still see no good argument against an interested student experiencing a few spins.

G

Genghis...........

You have replied to my post in a balanced way and I am quite inclined to agree with you. There is certainly no harm in I often used to demo/teach spin recovery to students who wanted to see it. I still maintain (of course!) that the real benefit is knowing how to avoid it in the first place!

:E

Used to fly

Many moons ago I used to race cars formula ford, Clubmans and a bit in formula 3.

It is only through driving the car beyond the limit that you can be comfortable driving the car on the limit. That is the only way you can fully appreciate what is happening and what is going to happen with the car. You knew that if the back broke away how far the tail could slide out before you lost it. You knew you could hold that point still in control. Not the fast way but a thorough understanding of how to extract the fastest lap time and to have the confience to do so.

I know a driver who considered himself to be ultra safe. He followed the speed limits had an excellent safety record, drove with care ......until.
One evening he hit a patch of ice, lost the car big time. He and his wife ended up in hospital for 3 months. He knew no better.

Its the same way with an aircraft! " Its only when you push the limits that you find what lies beyond" ! is a favourite saying which covers many aspects of life.

Obviously you do not want to achieve what you are learning to try to avoid ie killing yourself in an aircraft practicing how to avoid killing yourself. But in the right aircraft with the right instructor spin training should be done.

Infact a course in aerobatics is even better to allow you to fully understand what the aircraft can do and will make you a safer, more confident pilot.

We can train forever to the incipent stage with the idea that by doing so we will avoid the worst. The problem with that is the worst strikes when you least expect it and are least prepared for it the same as in a racing car.

There is an argument in twin flying to avoid full stalls the worry that by trying to recover adding differential power could cause a spin. Differential power either through mismanagement or one engine missing a beat.

With my examiner we take the twin high 8000-10000 feet and put it through its pace :)

Pace

Pace....

Sorry but I don't agree.

Also a few lessons in spin recovery will probably be a dim and distant memory when the time comes, and if low level......no use whatsoever!

Spin training and currency is vital if you are an aerobatic pilot, otherwise simply an interesting and academic exercise.

I know that if I drive (or fly) with my eyes shut, I will crash!....I don't need to try it tho'!!

:E

There are also the foolhardy out there who will try and replicate that which they have seen. Sometimes, it is best to point out that "there be dragons over there" and leave things at that. I would much prefer to spend an hour's worth of my student's money teaching him/her how to recognise the symptoms and recovery from incipient etc with maximum efficiency.

UsedtoFly

So you consider a red bull racing pilot or an experienced test pilot and an ordinary pilot both in the same type of aircraft stand the same chance of avoiding a spin or recovering from one if accidently entered into?

I agree with you that there have probably been more pilots lost practicing spins than having them for real. I also agree that the time you are most likely to have a spin is the time you are least likely to get out of it.

I do not believe you are a better pilot by limiting your knowledge on what your aircraft is capable of or can do.

Pace

It is worth asking at this point why your student is learning to fly?

Is it simply to be qualified to pole an aeroplane from A to B with minimal hassle, or to understand and participate in the joy of flying. The answer may strongly influence the way you want to treat their training in this regard.

G