N-Reg Confusion
 

Hi, Would someone in the know mind clarifying this for me?

I am wanting to fly an N-reg touring aircraft in the UK and throughout europe but I am a little unsure of the regulations.

I hold a JAA PPL and from what I can understand, I can fly G-reg and N-reg in the UK. If I want to fly the N-reg outside of the UK then I will need an FAA-PPL.

So first question, does anyone know what is required to convert my JAA-PPL to an FAA-PPL or obtain an FAA-PPL. (Surely I won't have to do the whole course?). I am wanting to do some hour building in the USA as well, incidently.

Secondly, this N-reg is IFR equipped and so I want an IR rating - this is where I get really confused.

Can I fly an N-reg IFR in the UK/europe on a JAA-IR?
OR do I need to obtain my FAA-IR (this was what I was told).

Now, if I do have my FAA-IR (but not a JAA) then can I fly G-reg aircraft under IFR or only N-reg?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions but I am somewhat confused.

In other words: I am a JAA-PPL who wants to fly and N-reg aircraft under VFR and IFR in the UK and around Europe: What must I do? :)

Thanks for any advice!

I am just going through all the same steps.
Despite all the advice this is a challenge but I think we are making progress

Some very helpful answers on this recent thread. Not sure if this is the correct way to post the link but it seems to work


http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...stest-way.html

I will have a go (for the fun of it). I have three licenses but I still get confused! IO540 will be along to correct me.

I hold a JAA PPL and from what I can understand, I can fly G-reg and N-reg in the UK.

Yes. Now the buts. You cant fly at night, unless you have a night rating, and you cant fly in VMC over an undercast unless you can see the ground.

If I want to fly the N-reg outside of the UK then I will need an FAA-PPL.

Maybe. There are two schools - you can and you cant. To be safe it is probably best avoided.

does anyone know what is required to convert my JAA-PPL to an FAA-PPL or obtain an FAA-PPL.

You need the paperwork from the CAA to say you are who you are and your logbook is what it is! You need to do the FAA theory - you get no exemptions for the JAA theory. You need to do the flight test, and will need to do as much additional training as prescribed by your instructor.

Can I fly an N-reg IFR in the UK/europe on a JAA-IR?

UK yes, Europe probably not, see above. However the foreign pilot conversion is a very straight forward route to an FAA IR.

Now, if I do have my FAA-IR (but not a JAA) then can I fly G-reg aircraft under IFR or only N-reg

Yes in the UK, but only in VMC and ourside CAS. You can extend your priviliges to IFR in IMC outside class A by applying for an IMCr which will be forthcoming without additional training. You cannot fly in class A in the UK or Europe whatever you do because there are subtle differences in the way airways physics work in Europe compared with the US which you can only learn by doing a JAA IR.

In short if you have a JAA PPL and think you will fly both G-reg and N-reg in the UK and Europe and want as much protection from whatever that lot at EASA cook up then you are best off doing a JAA IR, an FAA PPL and a foreign pilot conversion of your JAA IR. In that way you have the lot and can do just about anything time, money and other committments allow along as you always ultimately give way to the capabilities of your aircraft and the weather.

Correct.

An N-reg can be flown worldwide (outside the USA) on a license issued by the owner of the airspace. Ref: FAR 61.3.

A G-reg can be flown worldwide on any ICAO PPL, VFR only and if flying IFR then only outside controlled airspace. Ref ANO Art 26. (**)


So first question, does anyone know what is required to convert my JAA-PPL to an FAA-PPL or obtain an FAA-PPL. (Surely I won't have to do the whole course?). I am wanting to do some hour building in the USA as well, incidently.
You still need a license issued by the relevant airspace owner (which basically means an FAA license, to be practical. As for using a JAA IR in an N-reg, I am sure this is OK, again ref 61.3. The FARs just call for an "instrument rating".
If somebody says so, ask for the reference. I could be wrong.

You can fly a G-reg IFR worldwide but only outside CAS (ref ANO Art 26) which is basically useless, especially in Europe where most IFR-applicable airspace is Class E or stricter.

If you want to fly an N-reg plane, the only 100% sure and practical solution is an FAA PPL (which can be a piggyback or - far preferably - a standalone one), and the FAA IR involves considerably less ground study than the JAA IR.

However, the regulatory climate is gradually changing in Europe and by 2012 or so, EASA will have made a mark on it. Nobody knows quite what they will do. There is a proposal out which will strip all EU resident pilots of foreign license privileges, which is obviously pretty draconian but a backtrack on this is certain, but nobody knows quite what it might be. There is another proposal due out Nov 08 which will (may) attack N-reg airframes; this is thought to be less of a threat simply because it is virtually impossible to draft (France and the UK tried this and dropped it after massive protests). The upshot of this is that a newcomer to this scene (private IFR) ought to carefully consider both the FAA and JAA routes. EASA will probably also kill the UK concession marked (**) above.

You can convert a JAA PPL/IR to an FAA PPL/IR (all standalone) quite easily. The PPL is just a few hours' flight and a checkride, plus the medical and the 2 exams. The IR conversion is just a foreign pilot exam, possibly a checkride, but I don't remember. The USA is very generous in accepting foreign papers, unlike Europe which is heavily protectionist.

You can convert an FAA PPL/IR to a JAA PPL/IR, by sitting all the exams (7 for the JAA IR, plus 7 or (if >100hrs TT) 3 for the PPL), doing a min 15hrs' IR training, and a checkride, plus the medicals (Class 2 is OK but you need to pass the audiogram from the Class 1 medical).

The FAA -> JAA conversion is quite a lot of hassle, study and more hassle, but it still represents a big flying discount from the 50hrs (55 if ME) of doing the JAA IR ab initio, and this makes the FAA PPL/IR a reasonable stepping stone to the JAA IR (and, depending on EASA actions, you may never actually need to do the JAA IR). Especially as the FAA licenses/ratings allow all previous ICAO training as a credit, whereas the JAA stuff does not accept ANY previous instrument training as a credit. So if doing the FAA IR, e.g. the UK IMC Rating dual time counts fully towards the FAA IR requirements, but it counts nothing towards the JAA IR requirements. I am sure the great majority of UK based FAA IR pilots did the UK IMC Rating first and then went to the USA to do the IR, and did it with perhaps just 20hrs' flight training.

I have sent you a PM, jau.

IO540,

In passing through this thread, I saw your comment regarding a G-reg aircraft being able to be flown worldwide on an ICAO license.

As a PPL on an Australian license, I was surprised by this as I'd always been told that I couldn't take a G-reg aircraft out of the UK. I was aware of the "no IFR in CAS" restriction, but that isn't a real problem for me.

Thank you so much for your reference to the relevant chapter and verse in the ANO - this clearly contradicts what I had been told by various instructors (and I have to say the CAA on one occasion in the dim and distant past) - so I'm very happy and might contemplate a trip to France to celebrate ... if the weather ever gets near VFR conditions! :D :ok:

Paul.

However beware in Europe each State issues its own licence, there is no such thing as a JAA licence that allows you to fly a N reg in a JAA State other than the one where the licence was issued. As you can only hold one JAA licence that restricts you to UK.
But not IFR if its a JAA licence that is subject to JAR-FCL 1.175 ANO Schedule 8.

What is the story if you were say a resident of the Channel Islands? I'm seriously considering becoming a CI resident for tax purposes, and I wonder how being a "non EU" resident could benefit or not foreign pilot certificates and airframes?

Thanks for the replies. It seems easier to do the JAA-IR and then simply go to the states, do a couple of days flight training to earn a standalone FAA PPL-IR and then come back and be completely covered for both N and G anywhere in the world.

The saying 'there are no short cuts in aviation' comes to mind.

Thanks for all your help!

IO540, I didn't recieve the PM? Thanks for all your advice though.

Richard

Based on the current proposal, you will be ok. ICAO does allow a member state to ban its own citizens from exercising the privileges of a foreign license (in its own airspace) but EASA cannot stop "foreigners" flying into Europe.

However, if they did impose the long term parking ban (like e.g. the aborted UK proposal) that would catch you out too. After say 90 days, you would have to unscrew the wings and cart your plane out of the EU on the back of a trailer :) (and no, I don't think it would work, either!)

EASA's objective is the ever so laudable European superior-intellectual one whereby they want to obtain a reciprocal treaty with every other country in the world, covering mutual license recognition. Trying to argue with that is a bit like telling Bob Geldof to not run those highly effective pop concerts to abolish worldwide poverty. EASA might achieve this, or might not, or there will be some kind of compromise. I don't think we will know for 2-3 years. Obviously what really matters is whether they will get such a treaty with the USA (the Belgian Congo is less important in this case) and I don't think they will get one with the USA.

Richard - I sent you an email via the pprune email facility.

That would cover all the bases, but I wouldn't call it "easy". 7 exams (PPL/IR) but there is a strategy which has been done: revise like hell for a week from the published question banks, sit all 7 exams over a day or two, then revise properly for those which you failed. It probably won't work for you if you know nothing about IFR but somebody who has been flying IFR and knows the stuff already, should probably pass half of them.

You also have to do 50 (55 if ME) hrs dual flight training, with an IR school, which will be far from cheap.

This is why, for those who are happy to bet on EASA not screwing everybody, and who have an N-reg plane already or can get one, and who have the IMC Rating, the FAA IR is a very good middle step which gives you instant worldwide IFR privileges and the way you can do it at any of many schools in the USA makes it quite easy to slot into your life. But make sure the N-reg plane hasn't got anything in it which would be a nightmare to put on an EU register.

In fact if you want an absolutely watertight guarantee of always being able to fly everywhere in Europe, IFR, in anything that flies, do the JAA CPL/IR. It's only 14 exams :)

Please confirm ...
A holder of a JAA CPL/IR can fly an N-reg aircraft IFR throughout Europe ?
Would this be true of a public transport flight in an N-reg aircraft ?

Sorry to be thick but I didnt understand some of the subsequent answers. They seem a bit disjointed and didnt deal specifically with the questions.

Perhaps it is jsut me?

Was anyone actually disagreeing with my original replies to the questions?

paulthornton, I've asked the UK CAA this question myself, and their reply was along the lines of that they're allowing an ICAO license holder to fly the UK G reg aircraft and it didn't matter where the aircraft actually was.

The answer is no (probably).

The law is clear - you must have a licence issued by the State in which you are flying the N-Reg. The uncertainty is if, in this context, Europe is a State and JAA/EASA that State's regulator (and NAAs and places like the UK being but a local region within the larger state).

My personal view is - the local NAA takes enforcement action (rather than EASA direct enforcement action to be taken) ergo the places like UK, France, Germany are States and are separately regulated and therefore you need a licence issued by the specific State in which you wish to fly the N-Reg (or obviously an FAA licence)

Computer says nah :E

In very simple terms two of the three must be the same;

Airspace

Licence

Registration



Thus N reg, FAA Licence - any airspace

N Reg, UK JAA Licence - UK airspace

G Reg, UK JAA Licence - any airspace

G Reg, FAA Licence - UK airspace

etc.

There are, of course, exceptions - which no doubt will be pointed out in subsequent posts.....

But the CI are not in the EU...? ;)

The above is a very well worn rumour working its way around the GA scene and is untrue, except by pure fluke. There is NO such rule whatsoever.

ICAO guarantees only one thing: if the country of license issue matches the country of registry, you can fly all over ICAO-land, noncommercially.

The practice is more restrictive, of course. There is stuff like PPR, and there are countries (ICAO members) where they will make you into soup.

Can you explain what that means, in plain language and with references, Whopity?

OK I agree there. IOM residents should also be protected from anything cenceivably to do with EASA.

Interestingly the ICAO provision I referred to uses the word "nationals" which I think means a citizenship. Now, most CI/IOM residents do also hold a UK citizenship, don't they? To guard against the worst case scenario (if the wording was thus amended) they would have to revoke their UK citizenship. This is possible (it is on the Home Office website) but has certain drawbacks, and losing the right of abode in the UK is one of them. I don't know whether EASA's use of "resident" rather than "national" is deliberate - I suppose they had to do that because the EU is not a "country" and there is no such thing as an "EU citizenship". But in that case the EASA proposal is in breach of ICAO. Still, it doesn't matter because they can always file a difference to ICAO, on absolutely anything.

A simple licencing privilege (or restriction) that is often missed.

Schedule 8 Section 2 for all JAA licences contains the following:
This effectively prevents a JAA licence holder from flying IFR in any airspace without an IR (or National equivalent such as IMC). It is the major difference between a JAA licence and a UK National licence which has no such restriction.

is it possible then to fly n reg craft in uk airspace ifr in imc using your jaa ppl and imc rating. I am now from the above posts even less clear if you can do this to the channel islands. If the imc rating is valid there does this mean that you can fly n reg ifr to jersey on uk jaa ppl.
I know answer is to get faa ppl but i am just waiting for all the papers to go through.

Whopity wrote
It's difficult to see how the ability, with a UK National Licence, to fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace when VMC and in sight of the surface constitutes a 'major difference':confused:

In practical terms, it surely constitutes no difference at all?

I agree with Islander2; I cannot see the meaning of this. On my UK issued JAA PPL, before I got the IMCR, I could fly IFR in VMC, yes? It doesn't matter if you have a UK CAA PPL or the post-2000 UK JAA PPL.

Any ICAO PPL holder can fly IFR in VMC in UK airspace - unless his State of license issue says otherwise (e.g. the FAA PPL holder cannot fly IFR at all without an IR, so what does this do for night flight in the UK which is automatically IFR aaaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhhh nooooo not that one again!!!!! :) )

aaaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhhh nooooo not that one again!!!!! :)

I have it in writing from both the CAA and the FAA that the UK IMCR is good for an N-reg plane. And there is no known rule that states otherwise, with any clarity. You have an email or PM echobeach.

As regards Jersey, it has its own ANO and you would need a similar reply from the Jersey CAA and from the FAA....

But TBH this thread contains a fair # of old sleeping dogs which are never likely to be resolved with total clarity.

Not a lot.

If the pilot has a JAA night rating then he can fly at night on his JAA license. If he doesnt, he cant. That means if he has an FAA license, piggyback or otherwise, in the UK he will be flying on his JAA license in an N reg, so it makes no difference.

The only case it would be a problem is if he only had a stand alone FAA license without an IR in which case he couldnt fly an N reg at night - unless he asked for a SVFR clearance - in which case he could.

The problem is that an FAA standalone PPL comes with an automatic night privilege (unless you took advantage of the Alaska or Hawaii option??), so why is this no good in UK airspace?

It is a grey area, IMHO.

Yes, I know, but the point I was getting at is there are probably not many standalone FAA pilots in the UK with a JAA license.

Of course a piggyback license is not sufficient, so the pilot has had to go to the trouble of getting a stand alone FAA license and not done a night rating on his JAA license.

You can't fly any reg IFR in the Channel Islands zone with an IMCr, it's Class A.

SoCal - apologies, I vaguely recalled there was an option to do the FAA PPL without the night privileges.

Did you not leave a word out, Fuji? I was such a pilot for 2 years, until I got the IR.

There are also numerous FAA standalone PPL holders who have no other papers, though the reasons for that are perhaps less apparent if the pilot is living in the UK.

You cannot fly N reg in the CI on a JAA licence. Guernsey and Jersey have their own ANOs, but are not UK airspace. However the UK IMC rating is valid, on a G reg aircraft - to a degree as the CI zone is substantially Class A.

And agreed the 2 out of 3 'rule' is not written anywhere - it's a practical rule of thumb.

Confused
 

...ok now I am confused, where I thought I knew before. I am a British citizen, resident in France, with an FAA Private IR. Nothing else.

Can I VFR fly a G-Reg in UK/Europe?

Reference please [my emphasis]

The ANO does not limit IMCR privileges by aircraft registration (and I have that in writing from the CAA). Only its IFR privileges are limited to UK. The removal of the need to be in sight of surface, and the extended SVFR privileges, are valid worldwide.

If you have any ICAO PPL then you can fly a G-reg worldwide VFR (ref ANO Art 26). With your ICAO (non-JAA) IR you can also fly the G-reg IFR but only OCAS which is virtually useless in France because most of the relevant routes and terminal areas there are Class D/E. It merely means that you are not illegal when enroute in IMC in French Class G.

A summary of the rules (believed to be correct)

G-Reg Aircraft

• Old CAA/UK PPL - Can fly VFR anywhere but subject UK restrictions, Can fly IFR in a limited sense in the UK (allowed to fly IFR OCAS elsewhere but realistically nowhere else allows IFR without an clearance and an IR)
• JAA/UK PPL - Can fly VFR anywhere but subject UK restrictions, Can fly IFR in the context of night flight OCAS, but does not have the limited IFR privileges of the old CAA licence.
• JAA/UK IMC - Can fly VFR anywhere, almost surely no longer subject to in sight of surface limit globally, can fly IFR but not class A in the UK
• JAA/UK IR - No worries
• FAA/PPL can fly VFR anywhere, can not fly IFR, but maybe can fly UK night IFR (as the intent is clearly not to require any instrument skills for this type of IFR)(The referenced JAR-FCL 1.175 I believe also addresses the UK weird night IFR but not really IFR issue by excluding this case from the more general restriction)
• FAA/IR Can fly VFR anywhere, can fly IFR outside controlled airspace (But of limited use see above)

N-Reg Aircraft

• JAA/UK PPL Can fly VFR (subject to all UK restrictions) in the UK (and maybe the United States of Europe)
• JAA/UK IMC Probably can exercise all privileges of the UK IMC in UK airspace (many people say they have written confirmation of this statement)
• JAA/UK IR Can fly IFR in all airspace in the UK
• FAA PPL can fly anywhere VFR, may as stated above be able to fly IFR in the UK in VMC in the OCAS, can not fly night IFR in places like Ireland where they require real IFR (i.e. clearance and rating)
• FAA IR - no worries, but may not be able to do DIY approaches in the UK like an IMCr/IR holder (US IFR doesn't allow this, but it is in part 91 which broadly is superseded by ICAO and local regs outside the US).

Perhaps careless wording on my part - the UK IMC rating is valid in CI airspace. However I have it in writing from the Manager ATC Guernsey that you may not fly a N Reg aircraft on a JAA licence in the CI zone. I don't believe this has changed under the shortly to be introduced revised ANO - but I will check this and give you a reference.

Can you fly a JAA registered aircraft in the CI zone, and use IMC rating privileges? I believe so.

Er, no! As Whopity correctly pointed out, IFR flight is totally prohibited on a JAA vanilla PPL licence, other than for dual training, skill testing or, in the UK, night flight.

You and Whopity appear to be correct - I had not really appreciated this change (having not had to change to a JAA licence yet). I have fixed the previous list to reflect the difference between Old CAA and JAA PPL IFR privileges

(a) The holder of a pilot licence (A) shall
not act in any capacity as a pilot of an aeroplane
under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), except as a
pilot undergoing skill testing or dual training,
unless the holder has an instrument rating
(IR(A)) appropriate to the category of aircraft
issued in accordance with JAR–FCL.
(b) In JAA Member States where national
legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR
under specified circumstances (e.g. at night),
the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR,
provided that pilot holds a qualification
appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and
flight conditions in which the flight is conducted.
National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in
accordance with IFR other than in VMC without
being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be
restricted to use of the airspace of the State of
licence issue only.

So if a "vanilla" JAA pilot is flying in the UK in VMC above the transition level but conforming to the correct IFR height is he IFR because he is conforming with national legislation or is he conforming with international legislation or is he simply conforming?

He is simply conforming with CAA advice that VFR flights are recommended to fly at quadrantals in the circumstances IFR would require compliance).


In the context of a CAA vanilla PPL the actual operation of an aircraft under IFR and VFR is virtually identical (the only significant difference is quadrantals are mandatory under IFR and recommended under VFR), so most UK PPLs don't really think about it (and I suspect most in their minds are VFR).

However, the bit I hadn't thought about is - A UK PPL was broadly exempt from the cloud clearance requirements of VMC above the TA as he could just as well be IFR (but clear of clouds and with the required in flight vis). It appears that JAA/UK PPLs do not have this privilege and must (like all other PPLs) remain in VMC (in the full sense of the term) as all times.

• Quote:

  ---

  JAA/UK PPL Can fly VFR (subject to all UK restrictions) in the UK (and maybe the United States of Europe)

  ---

I think FAR 61.3 makes this UK only (the word is "issued", but this is another old chestnut)

• Quote:

  ---

  JAA/UK IR Can fly IFR in all airspace in the UK

  ---

Why only the UK? I don't recall seening anything in the FARs saying you need an FAA IR for IFR. The wording is usually "instrument rating".

Interesting that a JAA PPL holder cannot fly IFR in VMC.... not many people know that. That's a really obscure one, not in the ANO it seems. I thought that all JAA regs were supposed to be transported to the ANO in order to become national law? Not that it matters much in practice - hardly anybody declares themselves "IFR" when in actual VMC; the only benefit would be a possibly better chance of getting a radar service.

Pay attention there at the back of the class!

As Whopity pointed out, it is in the ANO ... Schedule 8 mandates JAA PPL/CPL/ATPL holders to comply with the conditions and restrictions specified in paragraph 1.175 of Section 1 of JAR-FCL 1.

And I have it in writing that the IMC is bot valid in the CI zone, only that it may be used to lower the SVR requirements but NOT fly under IFR.

:) :) :) and you wonder why I did the FAA CPL/IR :)

JAA PPL, CPL, IR = ~ 20 exams
FAA PPL, IR, CPL = 3 exams

The US of Europe comment was there to reflect the old chestnut and the fact that some people believe they have been told by some countries that it may be ok sometimes, depending on phase of ...... blah blah ....
For the same reason the JAA/PPL is UK only for an N-reg (the IR just like the underlying licence is only valid in the State of Issue - you can see I don't subscribe to the old chestnut above)

It is indirectly there as a reference to FCL 1.175 though in the ANO version I looked at the full text of 1.175 need to be referenced in the DCL 01 document. Given the simplicity of the point I am surprised that it wasn't incorporated in full text.