(Loose) formation flying
 

Just an idle thought, nothing serious for now planned...

Suppose I have a need to fly two aircraft a fairly long distance (say cross-channel) and the other pilot is not suffiently experienced enough to make such a long flight on his own, or we just like each others company, and we decide to make this a formation flight.

Mind you, not the military-style, white-knuckled, wingtip-to-wingtip aerobatic formation flight you see on shows, but just a leisurely, safe (25 meter or more separation in all three dimensions) formation of two aircraft. Take-off and landing not in formation but separate. Assume two basic PPLs 100 to 200 hours each, no IMC/IR and decent VFR forecasted.

Can anyone give me pointers on how to do this safely, how tiring it really is, and how to handle ATC (incl. transponder) in a formation? Terminology? Other tips? Any legislation specifically covering this sort of thing?

Backpacker,
75 meters can disappear very quickly in a moment of inattenttiveness. Something to keep in mind.

Simple. DON'T DO IT.

Even loose formation is not as easy as it might appear.

Take off ten minutes apart and make your own way there.

Meet up at the other end for tea and medals.



Would be my advice, fwiw.

(600 hr/SEP/MEP/PPL/Night/IMC)

PS, A mate and I tried it once on a short hop, worst thing we ever did.

I doubt you would want to fly "in formation".

Formation flying is a definite skill and certainly not one to expereince with another pilot who by the sound of it might be a bit of a "novice".

Far better, fly "in company with".

Put more simply this is a very lose formation of you and another, in which you take the lead and he follows.

You would simply tell AT that you are G-XXXX in company with G-XXXX another C152 or whatever.

Expect air traffic to tell the other aircraft to switch their transponder to standby.

When you arrive at your destination you might want to sign of the company call with G-XXXA breaking company with G-XXXB and calling for joining instructions. G-XXXB can then call for instructions in turn.

You might also want to think about whether you are going to agree an air to air frequency and what you will do if for any reason you get seperated.

Also you will need to give your friend some advice on how to maintain the company. For example the cruise speed you will use and the position he should adopt relative to you.

Formation flying is great fun but at least take some tips on here from people who have done it before if that is really what you want to do.

Fuji,

I'm surprised at you encouraging these people to do this. No disrespect to Backpacker and friend but, the clues were in the question...

low hours ppl and "long trip". Sorry, cross channel, even SAM - MP isn't a long trip for most.

There's enough to do if its your first X channel... without switching freqs to talk to your mate.. you should know how busy London will be if the conditions are good vfr as described in the question. Also mid channel, talking to London, getting the LFAT Atis, joining in with the 1000 other people over Bolougne isn't the time to be giving your mate a teach in on Box 2.

If you want to show him, fly together in one plane first.

Rant over.

Sorry crossed with TY.

TY is right, however flying in company works pretty well BUT it can be demanding in its own way.

The two aircraft are reasonably spread - whatever you are both comfortable with - AND I had a greater deal more seperation in mind than the poster!

However, the purpose in your case is to help the follower, but in fact the follower is working harder than the leader to maintain the "in company". On the plus side, all the time he is maintaining the company he really only has to worry about aviating, look out and Ts and Ps, rather than navigating or cummunicating, but he cant ignore these in case the company breaks.
If you want to give it a try you might do well to do a short trip with your friend first and see if he found it easier for him.

Three Yellows.

Sorry posts crossed again.

Yes, fair enough and I do agree.

I was so much intending to encourage as to point out the possibilities.

Also to be fair the poster did say "becasue we like each others company".

In the right weather I am not so sure it is that much of a problem.

I have done plently of formation and in company flying. It usually doesnt work because of a poor pre flight briefing, assuming the other pilot has sufficient experience.

Clearly it is not the best thing to be trying for a first time in c££p weather or on a busy week end.

However with really good viz and on a quiet weekday, setting up behind your friend for a x channel and breaking of the, in company with, well before you reach your destination is a very agreeable way to fly.

In short you need to think why you want to fly in company with your friend and what you are seeking to achieve AND if it does not work be prepared to break off AND for your friend to be certain he can complete the flight WITHOUT you as leader.

Fuji, thanks. That's the sort of response I was looking for.

So far it's just a hypothetical scenario, but you can assume that both pilots are qualified enough to make the trip on their own if need be. It's not intended as a cross-channel lesson.

More specifically, I'm thinking about the scenario where we would have three or four aerobatics pilots who all want to participate in an aeros contest a significant (two hours or more) distance away from our home base (Rotterdam), but the aeros plane itself can only take two people and virtually no baggage, and has a very limited (barely sufficient) avionics stack for long-distance touring. The other plane then would be an IFR Warrior or Diamond or something taking the other two pilots, the bags and such.

But don't worry about the exact scenario. Just interested in the technical/legal/ATC aspects of formation, or better, "in company with" flying.

Fuji, what's the distance between the planes if you fly "in company", what's the position of the chase plane and what sort of elements do you discuss pre-flight?

TY I'm not questioning your advice but I have a question. Is it easier to fly 10 mins behind someone not in sight and wondering if you're catching up, or 1/4 mile behind and in sight? I've not done either but should imagine both are quite demanding.

As an x RAF display pilot i knew said to me after my first hairy formation flight:'Leave it to the people who get paid to do it!!!'
Enough said i think...

I regularly fly in Combine with other aircraft. If you are over flying wilderness arrears, or water it can add a significant safety net if the engine stops. We generally fly about 1/3 of a mile apart, in good VMC.

The important thing to remember is that both aircraft must be capable flying the trip unaided. It is very easy to get separated if the vis reduces a little and very hard to meet back up again.

Rod1

DIY formation flying is the biggest cause of midairs according to the NTSB....Don't do it unless you both have been trained, and agreed beforehand.....

FTR, I like at least 10mins between myself and someone else.

Well there you are, as with everything in aviation, many different answers.

But, Backpacker, you seem to have moved the goalposts a bit, originally you asked

and now you are saying,

So which is it?

I would also caution against just listening to the answer you most like the sound of,


please remember the people on here who have advised against it.

Anyway, whatever you do, be safe and perhaps get some proper training first so that you have the airmanship skills and the knowledge to answer these questions.



Sorry, I don't mean to sound like an old fart, I'm a pretty adventurous PPL, tried it once, wouldn't do it again without significant professional tuition.

FTR, when I say leave 10 mis between take offs, what I really meant was long enough for it to be two seperate flights without bumping in to each other. 10 minutes is a very long time when you are sitting there waiting to go.

Both, actually. Using myself as an example: I have a little over 100 hours TT (75 PIC), done the aerobatics course and are now starting training for my first aerobatic competition. I have also been to the UK a grand total of two times (three legs as PIC), both times in a very-well equipped DA-40 TDI (dual GNS430, ADF, autopilot, mode S). If I were to have to do that in our Robin 2160, which we use for aerobatics, and which only has one VOR, no DME, no ADF, no autopilot and a GPS without moving map and a 5+ year old database, I would like to have a friend with me. Far enough away not to cause a hazard if your attention lapses for a dozen seconds, but close enough to see. The 1/3 of a mile that Rod1 mentions sounds good to me.

Yes, I know it would be legal and doable to take the Robin across alone but at the end of the day it is a minimally-equipped Day-VFR only aircraft. On a channel crossing, particularly the lack of DME, to back up dead reckoning, is something that worries me. Especially having seen the perfect-VMC-is-almost-like-IMC phenomenon. As Rod1 said, the friend provides a safety net that's pretty invaluable if something goes wrong. No better way to ensure a quick rescue than a plane circling overhead.

Having said that, don't worry about the exact scenario. It's not relevant. Assume, again, two pilots competent enough to do the trip on their own with spare mental capacity, two planes with almost identical cruise speeds, and a "loose formation" with enough separation to avoid hitting each other if somebodies attention lapses, but close enough to see. What's discussed in the pre-flight brief, how do you operate en-route, what do you tell ATC, etc.?

And once again, this is a hypothetical situation. At this point in time I have no firm plans. I'm here to learn about the risks and the rewards. If the risks are too great, I won't do it. But just telling me not to do it, without why, won't teach me anything. Yes, I understand that flying in a tight formation (and that is, as far as I'm concerned, anything close enough to give me the jitters) is risky. But flying approximately five minutes apart, same track, without a DME to give accurate position reports is risky too.

1. Select a reference point close to the airport. Agree to orbit at that reference point. Agree the direction of orbit, the height and the pressure setting to use.

2. Agree the aircraft to depart off the orbit first, second and so on, and as you are flying in company the distance, height and position separating each of you. Agree on a cruise speed. Obviously with aircraft of different speeds selection to suite the slowest is vital.

3. Agree on who will make the calls to AT and what information will be passed and if the company change height, direction or altimeter settings how and when these changes will be made.

4. Agree on what action you will take if the company breaks “formation” for any reason.

5. Agree on an air to air frequency if you are going to use one (and are permitted to do so), whether the aircraft each have a second box and can monitor a second frequency or how you will initiate air to air if the need arises.

6. Agree where and in what other circumstances you will separate from the company and how you will go about this. For example, despite the forecast, you are mid channel and unable to maintain visual contact. The follower might say G-XXX2 breaking company with G-XXXX1 will climb to 4,000 feet on 1015 and will route direct to Z.

7. Agree a clear strategy in the event of a comms failure of anyone in the company or in the very unlikely event an aircraft suffers an engine failure and has to ditch.

As others have said, if you are relying on the lead aircraft for navigation, then a company flight is a bad idea - you need to be certain you could under take the flight by your self.
Flying even in company requires attention to detail. You are using the size and relative position of the aircraft in front to maintain your position, but even in company the cues can change quickly if for any reason the aircraft in front changes speed or direction.
You are NOT flying in formation which is a completely different matter.

Proof, as if needed, that the word 'Formation' in a post can chill the blood of some and raise the blood temperature of others.

Suffice it to say the term formation if correctly used has a clear meaning to do with primary references and responsibility of parties. A loose gaggle is a different matter. There are many posts on this.

It is simple if you haveny practiced and briefed then there is a clear answer - dont do it.

Personally I would rather be five feet from an aircraft knowing where it is than fifty feet or five hundred feet and wondering where it has gone. BUT I have trained and practiced.

Having said that I was once in a jodel with no instrumentation on a club fly out over the channel and took the opportunity of tagging along with a Cessna 150 for the return journey. He had instrumentation. The vis meant that I could only just see where the water and sky were. Much easier to keep the right way up following loosely his wing as a horizon.

It was the safer option but I still wouldnt advise planning to do that.

Formation Flying
 

As a pilot who regularly (several times a year) flies very long distances (getting on for 1000nm) in formation, including a channel crossing, I am reading this thread with great interest.

I very greatly enjoy formation flying, and when done properly it is a major win-win for getting multiple aircraft to cover a large distance - the most experienced guy, or at least the one who knows the route best, leads and the no. 2 (and 3, 4, ... if they exist) only have to focus on their station-keeping. The minimum equipment requirements for the non-lead aircraft is lower (esp. no need for transponder), there is no need to be familiar with the route (but they will learn it for next time), R/T is simplified, and **crucially** it provides an additional safety margin in the event of going into the Channel - faster alerting of D&D, relaying lat/long of survivors, and can be helpful with overland situations too.

BUT - and it is a very big but indeed - formation flying is a very specific flying skill which must be learned. It is highly dangerous to engage in DIY formation flying (as someone else described it), whether formal close formation or loose formation. Crucially - and I disagree with some previous posters over this - it is a myth that flying in loose formation is more safe for novices than close formation, for two reasons. First, in close formation you have no option other than to be highly and minutely focussed on the aircraft you are formating on. As it requires less concentration, loose formation can lead to a lower level of awareness of the location of the lead aircraft - which is still quite near!! This could be - and has been - a recipe for disaster. Second, in loose formation you are naturally going to be less focussed on navigation, situational awareness, etc. Again I fear that this can lull the non-lead pilot into a false sense of securiy and can impair the process of responding to a changing situation. Lastly, in the event of comms problems in formation (which I have experienced several times) you need to be within visual range of the other aircraft to pass hand signals.

My advice is pretty clear - get some proper training in formation flying from a reputable outfit, which will cover not only joining, leaving and station-keeping, but also focussing on "formation management" issues: planning, briefing, hand-signals, dealing with emergencies, formation leading, etc. etc. Once you have had this training, go and enjoy it - formation flying is imho one of the most rewarding aspects of flying, and one which very few civilians get to appreciate properly. Until then, go as two singletons - it's safer overall.

So that would be "Formation Posting" then?:)

If you look up the radio term “Combine” this will answer your question.

You must agree all the points before takeoff, as has been mentioned. If the faster aircraft takes off second he can usually join without ever loosing visual contact with the lead aircraft.

Flying 1/3 mile trail is not the same as a close formation. Two experienced pilots flying appropriate aircraft can fly the length of the UK with little problem provided the weather is good.

If you are tail end charley you are checking the leads nav, and maybe doing the radio. The aircraft not doing the radio will be asked by ATC to squawk standby. In good weather, it can be very relaxing. The gotch is that if you stop paying attention to your position and you suddenly get separated you are on your own with a very big circle of uncertainty!

I flew to Wick for the PFA rally this year. I flew in combine with an RV4 on the way up, and on my own on the way back. It was much harder work on the way back, but it was all really good fun.

Rod1

Not with 51 minutes between the posts, more like I will follow you veeeery leisurely. :)

Some good posts but a couple of comments:

1. There are not many of substance. Formation flying and flying in company has associated risks and everyone has made that clear. However plenty is written on aeros and in the same way you would be unwise to teach yourself. Having given the warning "dont try this at home" the poster is entitled to comment on what is involved.

2. I am not convinced that two aircraft flying in company in good viz is quite the challenge some of these posts might give the impression. There are clearly some associated risks, but with a good brief beforehand, a text book understanding of the issues involved and a reasonable level of experience it should not cause a problem.

My introduction was many years ago not long after I started flying. It was a cross channel and the delivery driver of a Yak was a bit worried about making the crossing in poor viz and with barely adequate equipment. He asked if he could formate on me. Strangely enough not disimiliar to the circumstances outlined. Perhaps stupidly I said he could - I had never flown in formation before. I told him so. He gave me a short brief over a cup of coffee. Off we went, he formating on me - I never thought an aircraft could settle so close on my wing. The weather was rubbish but cross we did. I loved it and it got me started. I subsequently found out who the driver that day had been - I guess I shouldnt have been worried.

I've been on the "receiving end" of several formations of GA aircraft on long-ish trips as a controller. When the pilots involved are 'professional' it's great. When it's clear that the parties involved are a bit uncertain about what to do, it's not much fun. (4 Germans doing a sudden "fan" split in between other tfc on downwind........ :uhoh: )

Many groups fly past here each summer, and the ones that I find most "pro", fly as singletons, and are obviously following a game plan with time and speed spacing.
(Long trail with 5-10 miles gaps, same speed)


As a PPL I would never attempt it without instruction from someone experienced in formation flying.

Our military customers never take formation flying lightly, for obvious reasons.
Would a MIL pilot accept to fly any kind of formation with a pilot who's skill level in formation flying is unknown? :)

amateur formation
 

I had an opportunity to fly my aircraft in a 4 ship formation at Sun 'n Fun 8 years ago for a photo shoot.

I had around 600h TT at the time and was very familiar with the aircraft but deferred the formation part of the flight to a very experienced ex-military training pilot who kept a very tight formation far better and more safely than I could ever have hoped to. The experience was one of the most exhilarating I have ever had in an aircraft and I can really see the thrill of it as well as the practical advantages it offers.

A few months before this I had attempted to formate with a far slower aircraft being flown by 2 good friends (one of whom was an airline pilot) up in Canada. It very nearly ended in disaster - I came very close to hitting them and killing all of us as I attempted to formate on them but bowled past them trying to slow down (at double their cruise speed). Things can happen very fast when you are close together, so unless you are trained I would recommend a healthy degree of separation.

IMHO It is a very good way to kill yourself and take a friend with you unless you have been properly trained.

SB

Read the Pprune for hysteria!

OK just me over-reaction. If people posting here cannot maintain their position at something more than 100m and less than a mile I hope they spend most of their time at the keyboard rather than in the air!

My friends and I have done a fair amount of flying in company. With simple agreed instructions and a bit of discipline it is straight forward, fun and makes for an interesting trip. As for dooming people to collision and death - get a life!

The important things are to have that sset of rules arranged, to ensure that if people don't or can't follow them there is an agreed fallback and its pretty easy.

We started doing it beause only 1 of the 3 aircraft had a transponder and with the welcoming attitude of many 'international' UK airports getting a transit was tricky. Adding the magic 'formation' to the call usually got us through! We still do it from time to time although now there are lots of (becoming obselete) transponders between us.

Stick to a spot - which the lead aricraft can see - typically 4.30 at 500m plus. Follow the leader! Especially on the radio! After the initial joining call split up and adopt line astern at suitable spacing - from there on its one your own - individual coms with the tower. Joining up - agree where and what height, breaking up agree either a frequency to call on where the others will know what your intentions are or another method.....

"get a life!"

I have one thanks, I thoroughly enjoy being alive and want to keep things that way.;)

At 500m separation you are practically counties apart, aircraft get closer than that in the circuit!

SB

Formation flying as though you're in a Vic over the Channel in the Battle of Britain or on a magazine photoshoot has got to a dangerous pastime unless you're well trained.

IMHO flying withing 25 metres of another aircraft is undesirable because of the small margin for errror. Say one guy avoids traffic by turning left. The other chap is checking his chart or avoiding a large seagull. Oops, you're dead...

But I don't see the problem with flying in company with set parameters eg two pilots in each aircraft so that the handling pilot can concentrate on handling while the other pilot does the nav/radio. It happens in Club Fly-outs all the time and is probably safer than having 10 aircraft converging on the same destination without any coordination!

And compared with flying the circuit at most training airfields where you regularly have 3 students or low hour PPL aircraft at various speeds and altitudes on each leg, not to mention the fancy-dan CPL students joining left base in twins, it's a doddle. :rolleyes:

Yes, I agree.

I think there is a huge difference between formation flying and flying in company.

The title of the thread is deceptive and there are a lot of comments about formation flying .. .. ..

so I think it is worth repeating formation flying requires training,

but flying in well spaced company if everyone is properly briefed is a different matter.

Is "in company" actually a properly recognised ATC term? What are the other proper ATC calls to make when joining up, when communicating to ATC that you're a formation (just "<callsign> formation" or something else?), and what are the proper calls to split apart?

I don't have CAP416 to hand here. Feel free to refer me there if there's proper information in there.

I don't hink 'in company' is in the book. But a little common sense on the radio usually works. And most ATC seem to prefer talking to a 'combine' - to use the RAF word - which we never did, than in talking to 3 aircraft any number of which might squawk.

Then use your normal calls simply adding in that you are splitting apart. Or that one of you has gone AWOL and is no longer party of the formation. As the radio man you simply have to use the normal calls with the additional information that either ATC or the otehr aircraft in the formation need.

"G-ZZZZ approaching blah for joining information. the other aircraft will leave formation and contact you direct for landing clearance" as an example when you are splitting up on arrival.

One of the problems that i've encountered in flying cross country in loose formation is the radio.
Unless you both have two radios, then one aircraft will be doing the communication for "a flight of two? aircraft". They will have their radio tuned to the local ATC frequency and this cannot be used for communication between the aircraft.

The lead aircraft will be doing all the navigation and therefore may not always have sight of the second one. It is easy to lose sight of the second aircraft unless they are very good at holding position and height.

If the second aircraft gets the frequency wrong when changing from one controller to another, then he will have lost communication, so I have found it useful to have a "go to" frequency in the event you get separated.

The other 'issue' is where the second aircraft needs to get the attention of the first aircraft. If they both only have one radio this is difficult unless they talk on the ATC frequency (vey much frowned upon) or pull ahead to attract attention (can be dangerous).

So with two radios it is easier. With only one then you do have to agree up front a way to attract attention or to cope with being on different frequencies.

I assume that you have also done some formation work, otherwise keep at least a 25-50 mtr distance.

If you can arrange the necessary logistics (sole access to a Yak-52 or an Extra 300 for a week, budget for 15 hours+ flying plus transits; ideally you should be comfortable with flying basic aerobatic figures in a safe, smooth and predictable fashion on type) then the North Weald formation week, run twice yearly, is a fairly unique institution, taught by serving and retired military instructors, is the best way for a PPL - probably anywhere, not just the UK - to get to grips with the subject.

I'd argue there are two distinct, but related, aspects of the training.

First is the art of flying close formation - for the formation members, station keeping, sequencing of formation changes, safety protocols for joining and departing formation. At first this is enough to fry your brain - you've spent your entire PPL career up until this point trying to stay as far away as possible from anything else in the sky, and then to be flying a few metres from someone's wingtip, but with expert tuition becomes, if not second nature, another skill to be practised. As a formation lead, the responsibility of having another anything from 1 to 8 aircraft depending on your ability to fly smoothly and predictably, and be mentally far enough ahead of not just your own aircraft, but the entire formation, is actually a far more demanding task.

Second, and probably more relevant to the OP and the concept of flying 'in company' is adopting a rigourous and standardised approach to the pre-flight planning, briefing, RT during the sortie, and finally post-sortie debrief. The training emphasises planning every aspect, from start-up, taxi, take-off, through to rejoin, landing, shut-down - and plan for failures or emergencies at each stage. Assume that at any stage comms and visual contact could be lost - ZA mentions a 'go to' frequency, known otherwise as a collector; 'safe haven' altitude spacings for each formation member in the event of visual contact loss. Notams, diversions, fuel planning, weather.....plan and brief as much as you can. The more preparation, the less RT within the formation is required, to the point of almost trappist minimalism. The post-flight debrief is as important as the pre-flight one, because something will *always* end up not going to plan - if not for you, then for someone else in the formation - you only learn from your mistakes if you learn you've made a mistake.

The course *is* bloody hard work, particularly for the first few days. Its also some of the best fun flying you can have as a PPL, bar none. I've been lucky enough to attend three courses (and would be there twice a year every year without fail apart from the inconvenient fact that my fellow Yak group members are also champing at the bit to attend).

If you have access to the relevant hardware, and want to learn about formation from the professionals, then you should seriously consider the NW course - but failing that, get some training from one of the other organisations. Self-taught formation is a formula for the same pseudo-Darwinian effect as self-taught aerobatics - not survival of the fittest or smartest, just survival down to sheer luck.

Golly what a lot of scaremongering!

Flying in 'loose formation' with a friend is some of the best fun you can have with a PPL.

The advice given by Fuji on this thread is pretty much spot on in my view.

The key things to remember in addition are:-

1) Don't get too close. Sounds really obvious but it gets tempting to try to get 'just a little bit tighter' onto your friend. Don't! It's not big or clever. Just dangerous!

2) Don't show off / dick about.

3) Don't contemplate doing this with anyone who you think might possibly try showing off / dicking about.

Assuming two sensible, moderately competent PPL holders doing this in good weather, not getting too close to each other and having followed Fuji's sensible advice - this really isn't dangerous.

My goodness - why is it that there seems to be a complete inability to distinguish between flying in company and in formation.

I get the distinct impression that there are more than the usual number of people on this thread who have very little idea about either, never mind actually having done either.

It is really difficult to debate something like this if you havent done it.

I think you might what to introduce your comments by telling us whether you have flown in company and / or in formation. Tell us a bit about what training you had (if any) and what you took away with you from the experience. We might all have something to learn.

Firstly, we were talking about flying in company only. You can leave formation flying out of this debate!

Secondly, the fact that something is inherently unsafe is not a good reason for prohibiting it. :ugh:

One of the biggest problems with this country of ours is the Nanny State. Every few days there's a new government or caa regulation which regulates what was once left to an individual's judgment. We see it everyday; people who haven't had to think for themselves because they are duped into a false sense of security by adherence to rules. It seems that these rules are simply designed to protect idiots to the detriment of normal people. Flying in company is not against the rules, nor is it dangerous as long as it's done by reasonably competent people.

IMHO driving down the M25 at 80 MPH with a hundred other motorists, some of whom passed their tests decades ago, some of whom passed their tests but are awful drivers, and others for whom 'a test' was 200 Marlboro lights under the pub table. That, my friends, is far more dangerous, requires far more concentration and luck, than a few competent PPL holders flying within visual range of each other AND it's seen as acceptable. Let's get this in perspective!

I agree with Julian, what a load of scaremongering. It's common on this site - granted - but it's frustrating nevertheless. :suspect: The same people who make these comments probably drive at 40 MPH in the countryside - because it's safer - but then bumble on into a built-up area and past a school at the same speed...As long as people use their brains and training, surely this is all an over-reaction.

Bring on the flak! :rolleyes:

IMHO - the difference has nothing to do with separation, but everything to do with training, preparation, and attitude. The military might typically punt around the place in a tactical formation spread over a couple of miles, but all of the things I've outlined above will still apply.

To return to the OPs topic - flying in company or loose formation to shepherd a less well equipped aircraft or less experienced crew somewhere - is not a good idea. I've been there, done it, and not in a hurry to go back. If you're not confident, or the kit not capable enough, to make the trip on your own, then come up with a different plan.

eHarding

Really? To me this suggests (since that is how you open your post) that these are the essential prerequisites for two friends who wish to fly their C152s in half mile company. I dont buy it.

I would be interested to know what was wrong with my preflight brief set out earlier. Simple, to the point and it works. More importantly it is not rocket science.

Ah yes, but given the scenario above and discussed earlier of our two friends, I would be really interested to know the essential elements of start up, taxi, take off, rejoin, landing and shut down that are essential to two friends who agree to meet up over a known land mark, follow each other to a destination and break company well before joing the curcuit?


Pure and simple I just dont think this stacks up - unless I have missed the point.

All very valid if we were talking about formation flying but I think we moved away from that many posts ago.

Fuji.

Extra points if you can work the quote attribution magic.

Well, lets return to the detail of the OP's query....

I apologise for my less than crystal-clear style, but the point I was making was to always plan for the worst outcome as well as the best when dealing with more than one aircraft - and that close formation training provides an excellent grounding for this. As for the OP - he refers to aerobatic pilots - being a competition aerobatic pilot myself, I can readily confirm that I would sooner stick my end in a coffee grinder than attempt another formation/in company transit with aerobatic pilots without formal formation training - generally superb at the stick and rudder part, generally a disaster in the teamwork department :E

Well the original question was

Which is what has made a lot of us on here err on the side of caution.

eHarding and 3Ys

Yes, all gracefully accepted.

All of your comments are clearly appropriate to formation flying.

My point was that the debate seemed to have moved on to flying in well spaced company. I think it should be clear which we are talking about (and I do agree the poster started out by talking about "formation")

Given what the poster appears to be seaking to achieve and given the mix of aircraft I would have thought well spaced formation would be far better suited to his purpose anyway - leaving aside whether or not the nav equipment on one or other of the aircraft is up to the job.

Just make your bleedin' mind up, will you? :}

Well spaced company it is, and I meant to say. :}