(Loose) formation flying
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(Loose) formation flying
Just an idle thought, nothing serious for now planned...
Suppose I have a need to fly two aircraft a fairly long distance (say cross-channel) and the other pilot is not suffiently experienced enough to make such a long flight on his own, or we just like each others company, and we decide to make this a formation flight.
Mind you, not the military-style, white-knuckled, wingtip-to-wingtip aerobatic formation flight you see on shows, but just a leisurely, safe (25 meter or more separation in all three dimensions) formation of two aircraft. Take-off and landing not in formation but separate. Assume two basic PPLs 100 to 200 hours each, no IMC/IR and decent VFR forecasted.
Can anyone give me pointers on how to do this safely, how tiring it really is, and how to handle ATC (incl. transponder) in a formation? Terminology? Other tips? Any legislation specifically covering this sort of thing?
Suppose I have a need to fly two aircraft a fairly long distance (say cross-channel) and the other pilot is not suffiently experienced enough to make such a long flight on his own, or we just like each others company, and we decide to make this a formation flight.
Mind you, not the military-style, white-knuckled, wingtip-to-wingtip aerobatic formation flight you see on shows, but just a leisurely, safe (25 meter or more separation in all three dimensions) formation of two aircraft. Take-off and landing not in formation but separate. Assume two basic PPLs 100 to 200 hours each, no IMC/IR and decent VFR forecasted.
Can anyone give me pointers on how to do this safely, how tiring it really is, and how to handle ATC (incl. transponder) in a formation? Terminology? Other tips? Any legislation specifically covering this sort of thing?
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Simple. DON'T DO IT.
Even loose formation is not as easy as it might appear.
Take off ten minutes apart and make your own way there.
Meet up at the other end for tea and medals.
Would be my advice, fwiw.
(600 hr/SEP/MEP/PPL/Night/IMC)
PS, A mate and I tried it once on a short hop, worst thing we ever did.
Even loose formation is not as easy as it might appear.
Take off ten minutes apart and make your own way there.
Meet up at the other end for tea and medals.
Would be my advice, fwiw.
(600 hr/SEP/MEP/PPL/Night/IMC)
PS, A mate and I tried it once on a short hop, worst thing we ever did.
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I doubt you would want to fly "in formation".
Formation flying is a definite skill and certainly not one to expereince with another pilot who by the sound of it might be a bit of a "novice".
Far better, fly "in company with".
Put more simply this is a very lose formation of you and another, in which you take the lead and he follows.
You would simply tell AT that you are G-XXXX in company with G-XXXX another C152 or whatever.
Expect air traffic to tell the other aircraft to switch their transponder to standby.
When you arrive at your destination you might want to sign of the company call with G-XXXA breaking company with G-XXXB and calling for joining instructions. G-XXXB can then call for instructions in turn.
You might also want to think about whether you are going to agree an air to air frequency and what you will do if for any reason you get seperated.
Also you will need to give your friend some advice on how to maintain the company. For example the cruise speed you will use and the position he should adopt relative to you.
Formation flying is great fun but at least take some tips on here from people who have done it before if that is really what you want to do.
Formation flying is a definite skill and certainly not one to expereince with another pilot who by the sound of it might be a bit of a "novice".
Far better, fly "in company with".
Put more simply this is a very lose formation of you and another, in which you take the lead and he follows.
You would simply tell AT that you are G-XXXX in company with G-XXXX another C152 or whatever.
Expect air traffic to tell the other aircraft to switch their transponder to standby.
When you arrive at your destination you might want to sign of the company call with G-XXXA breaking company with G-XXXB and calling for joining instructions. G-XXXB can then call for instructions in turn.
You might also want to think about whether you are going to agree an air to air frequency and what you will do if for any reason you get seperated.
Also you will need to give your friend some advice on how to maintain the company. For example the cruise speed you will use and the position he should adopt relative to you.
Formation flying is great fun but at least take some tips on here from people who have done it before if that is really what you want to do.
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Fuji,
I'm surprised at you encouraging these people to do this. No disrespect to Backpacker and friend but, the clues were in the question...
low hours ppl and "long trip". Sorry, cross channel, even SAM - MP isn't a long trip for most.
There's enough to do if its your first X channel... without switching freqs to talk to your mate.. you should know how busy London will be if the conditions are good vfr as described in the question. Also mid channel, talking to London, getting the LFAT Atis, joining in with the 1000 other people over Bolougne isn't the time to be giving your mate a teach in on Box 2.
If you want to show him, fly together in one plane first.
Rant over.
I'm surprised at you encouraging these people to do this. No disrespect to Backpacker and friend but, the clues were in the question...
low hours ppl and "long trip". Sorry, cross channel, even SAM - MP isn't a long trip for most.
There's enough to do if its your first X channel... without switching freqs to talk to your mate.. you should know how busy London will be if the conditions are good vfr as described in the question. Also mid channel, talking to London, getting the LFAT Atis, joining in with the 1000 other people over Bolougne isn't the time to be giving your mate a teach in on Box 2.
If you want to show him, fly together in one plane first.
Rant over.
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Sorry crossed with TY.
TY is right, however flying in company works pretty well BUT it can be demanding in its own way.
The two aircraft are reasonably spread - whatever you are both comfortable with - AND I had a greater deal more seperation in mind than the poster!
However, the purpose in your case is to help the follower, but in fact the follower is working harder than the leader to maintain the "in company". On the plus side, all the time he is maintaining the company he really only has to worry about aviating, look out and Ts and Ps, rather than navigating or cummunicating, but he cant ignore these in case the company breaks.
If you want to give it a try you might do well to do a short trip with your friend first and see if he found it easier for him.
TY is right, however flying in company works pretty well BUT it can be demanding in its own way.
The two aircraft are reasonably spread - whatever you are both comfortable with - AND I had a greater deal more seperation in mind than the poster!
However, the purpose in your case is to help the follower, but in fact the follower is working harder than the leader to maintain the "in company". On the plus side, all the time he is maintaining the company he really only has to worry about aviating, look out and Ts and Ps, rather than navigating or cummunicating, but he cant ignore these in case the company breaks.
If you want to give it a try you might do well to do a short trip with your friend first and see if he found it easier for him.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 19th Nov 2007 at 11:16.
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Three Yellows.
Sorry posts crossed again.
Yes, fair enough and I do agree.
I was so much intending to encourage as to point out the possibilities.
Also to be fair the poster did say "becasue we like each others company".
In the right weather I am not so sure it is that much of a problem.
I have done plently of formation and in company flying. It usually doesnt work because of a poor pre flight briefing, assuming the other pilot has sufficient experience.
Clearly it is not the best thing to be trying for a first time in cŁŁp weather or on a busy week end.
However with really good viz and on a quiet weekday, setting up behind your friend for a x channel and breaking of the, in company with, well before you reach your destination is a very agreeable way to fly.
In short you need to think why you want to fly in company with your friend and what you are seeking to achieve AND if it does not work be prepared to break off AND for your friend to be certain he can complete the flight WITHOUT you as leader.
Sorry posts crossed again.
Yes, fair enough and I do agree.
I was so much intending to encourage as to point out the possibilities.
Also to be fair the poster did say "becasue we like each others company".
In the right weather I am not so sure it is that much of a problem.
I have done plently of formation and in company flying. It usually doesnt work because of a poor pre flight briefing, assuming the other pilot has sufficient experience.
Clearly it is not the best thing to be trying for a first time in cŁŁp weather or on a busy week end.
However with really good viz and on a quiet weekday, setting up behind your friend for a x channel and breaking of the, in company with, well before you reach your destination is a very agreeable way to fly.
In short you need to think why you want to fly in company with your friend and what you are seeking to achieve AND if it does not work be prepared to break off AND for your friend to be certain he can complete the flight WITHOUT you as leader.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 19th Nov 2007 at 11:14.
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Fuji, thanks. That's the sort of response I was looking for.
So far it's just a hypothetical scenario, but you can assume that both pilots are qualified enough to make the trip on their own if need be. It's not intended as a cross-channel lesson.
More specifically, I'm thinking about the scenario where we would have three or four aerobatics pilots who all want to participate in an aeros contest a significant (two hours or more) distance away from our home base (Rotterdam), but the aeros plane itself can only take two people and virtually no baggage, and has a very limited (barely sufficient) avionics stack for long-distance touring. The other plane then would be an IFR Warrior or Diamond or something taking the other two pilots, the bags and such.
But don't worry about the exact scenario. Just interested in the technical/legal/ATC aspects of formation, or better, "in company with" flying.
Fuji, what's the distance between the planes if you fly "in company", what's the position of the chase plane and what sort of elements do you discuss pre-flight?
So far it's just a hypothetical scenario, but you can assume that both pilots are qualified enough to make the trip on their own if need be. It's not intended as a cross-channel lesson.
More specifically, I'm thinking about the scenario where we would have three or four aerobatics pilots who all want to participate in an aeros contest a significant (two hours or more) distance away from our home base (Rotterdam), but the aeros plane itself can only take two people and virtually no baggage, and has a very limited (barely sufficient) avionics stack for long-distance touring. The other plane then would be an IFR Warrior or Diamond or something taking the other two pilots, the bags and such.
But don't worry about the exact scenario. Just interested in the technical/legal/ATC aspects of formation, or better, "in company with" flying.
Fuji, what's the distance between the planes if you fly "in company", what's the position of the chase plane and what sort of elements do you discuss pre-flight?
Take off ten minutes apart and make your own way there.
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I regularly fly in Combine with other aircraft. If you are over flying wilderness arrears, or water it can add a significant safety net if the engine stops. We generally fly about 1/3 of a mile apart, in good VMC.
The important thing to remember is that both aircraft must be capable flying the trip unaided. It is very easy to get separated if the vis reduces a little and very hard to meet back up again.
Rod1
The important thing to remember is that both aircraft must be capable flying the trip unaided. It is very easy to get separated if the vis reduces a little and very hard to meet back up again.
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DIY formation flying is the biggest cause of midairs according to the NTSB....Don't do it unless you both have been trained, and agreed beforehand.....
FTR, I like at least 10mins between myself and someone else.
FTR, I like at least 10mins between myself and someone else.
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Well there you are, as with everything in aviation, many different answers.
But, Backpacker, you seem to have moved the goalposts a bit, originally you asked
and now you are saying,
So which is it?
I would also caution against just listening to the answer you most like the sound of,
please remember the people on here who have advised against it.
Anyway, whatever you do, be safe and perhaps get some proper training first so that you have the airmanship skills and the knowledge to answer these questions.
Sorry, I don't mean to sound like an old fart, I'm a pretty adventurous PPL, tried it once, wouldn't do it again without significant professional tuition.
FTR, when I say leave 10 mis between take offs, what I really meant was long enough for it to be two seperate flights without bumping in to each other. 10 minutes is a very long time when you are sitting there waiting to go.
But, Backpacker, you seem to have moved the goalposts a bit, originally you asked
the other pilot is not suffiently experienced enough to make such a long flight on his own,
Assume two basic PPLs 100 to 200 hours each, no IMC/IR and decent VFR forecasted.
Assume two basic PPLs 100 to 200 hours each, no IMC/IR and decent VFR forecasted.
More specifically, I'm thinking about the scenario where we would have three or four aerobatics pilots who all want to participate in an aeros contest a significant (two hours or more) distance away from our home base (Rotterdam), but the aeros plane itself can only take two people and virtually no baggage, and has a very limited (barely sufficient) avionics stack for long-distance touring. The other plane then would be an IFR Warrior or Diamond or something taking the other two pilots, the bags and such.
I would also caution against just listening to the answer you most like the sound of,
Fuji, thanks. That's the sort of response I was looking for.
please remember the people on here who have advised against it.
Anyway, whatever you do, be safe and perhaps get some proper training first so that you have the airmanship skills and the knowledge to answer these questions.
Can anyone give me pointers on how to do this safely, how tiring it really is, and how to handle ATC (incl. transponder) in a formation? Terminology? Other tips? Any legislation specifically covering this sort of thing?
Sorry, I don't mean to sound like an old fart, I'm a pretty adventurous PPL, tried it once, wouldn't do it again without significant professional tuition.
FTR, when I say leave 10 mis between take offs, what I really meant was long enough for it to be two seperate flights without bumping in to each other. 10 minutes is a very long time when you are sitting there waiting to go.
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So which is it?
Yes, I know it would be legal and doable to take the Robin across alone but at the end of the day it is a minimally-equipped Day-VFR only aircraft. On a channel crossing, particularly the lack of DME, to back up dead reckoning, is something that worries me. Especially having seen the perfect-VMC-is-almost-like-IMC phenomenon. As Rod1 said, the friend provides a safety net that's pretty invaluable if something goes wrong. No better way to ensure a quick rescue than a plane circling overhead.
Having said that, don't worry about the exact scenario. It's not relevant. Assume, again, two pilots competent enough to do the trip on their own with spare mental capacity, two planes with almost identical cruise speeds, and a "loose formation" with enough separation to avoid hitting each other if somebodies attention lapses, but close enough to see. What's discussed in the pre-flight brief, how do you operate en-route, what do you tell ATC, etc.?
And once again, this is a hypothetical situation. At this point in time I have no firm plans. I'm here to learn about the risks and the rewards. If the risks are too great, I won't do it. But just telling me not to do it, without why, won't teach me anything. Yes, I understand that flying in a tight formation (and that is, as far as I'm concerned, anything close enough to give me the jitters) is risky. But flying approximately five minutes apart, same track, without a DME to give accurate position reports is risky too.
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1. Select a reference point close to the airport. Agree to orbit at that reference point. Agree the direction of orbit, the height and the pressure setting to use.
2. Agree the aircraft to depart off the orbit first, second and so on, and as you are flying in company the distance, height and position separating each of you. Agree on a cruise speed. Obviously with aircraft of different speeds selection to suite the slowest is vital.
3. Agree on who will make the calls to AT and what information will be passed and if the company change height, direction or altimeter settings how and when these changes will be made.
4. Agree on what action you will take if the company breaks “formation” for any reason.
5. Agree on an air to air frequency if you are going to use one (and are permitted to do so), whether the aircraft each have a second box and can monitor a second frequency or how you will initiate air to air if the need arises.
6. Agree where and in what other circumstances you will separate from the company and how you will go about this. For example, despite the forecast, you are mid channel and unable to maintain visual contact. The follower might say G-XXX2 breaking company with G-XXXX1 will climb to 4,000 feet on 1015 and will route direct to Z.
7. Agree a clear strategy in the event of a comms failure of anyone in the company or in the very unlikely event an aircraft suffers an engine failure and has to ditch.
As others have said, if you are relying on the lead aircraft for navigation, then a company flight is a bad idea - you need to be certain you could under take the flight by your self.
Flying even in company requires attention to detail. You are using the size and relative position of the aircraft in front to maintain your position, but even in company the cues can change quickly if for any reason the aircraft in front changes speed or direction.
You are NOT flying in formation which is a completely different matter.
2. Agree the aircraft to depart off the orbit first, second and so on, and as you are flying in company the distance, height and position separating each of you. Agree on a cruise speed. Obviously with aircraft of different speeds selection to suite the slowest is vital.
3. Agree on who will make the calls to AT and what information will be passed and if the company change height, direction or altimeter settings how and when these changes will be made.
4. Agree on what action you will take if the company breaks “formation” for any reason.
5. Agree on an air to air frequency if you are going to use one (and are permitted to do so), whether the aircraft each have a second box and can monitor a second frequency or how you will initiate air to air if the need arises.
6. Agree where and in what other circumstances you will separate from the company and how you will go about this. For example, despite the forecast, you are mid channel and unable to maintain visual contact. The follower might say G-XXX2 breaking company with G-XXXX1 will climb to 4,000 feet on 1015 and will route direct to Z.
7. Agree a clear strategy in the event of a comms failure of anyone in the company or in the very unlikely event an aircraft suffers an engine failure and has to ditch.
As others have said, if you are relying on the lead aircraft for navigation, then a company flight is a bad idea - you need to be certain you could under take the flight by your self.
Flying even in company requires attention to detail. You are using the size and relative position of the aircraft in front to maintain your position, but even in company the cues can change quickly if for any reason the aircraft in front changes speed or direction.
You are NOT flying in formation which is a completely different matter.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 19th Nov 2007 at 17:38.
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Proof, as if needed, that the word 'Formation' in a post can chill the blood of some and raise the blood temperature of others.
Suffice it to say the term formation if correctly used has a clear meaning to do with primary references and responsibility of parties. A loose gaggle is a different matter. There are many posts on this.
It is simple if you haveny practiced and briefed then there is a clear answer - dont do it.
Personally I would rather be five feet from an aircraft knowing where it is than fifty feet or five hundred feet and wondering where it has gone. BUT I have trained and practiced.
Having said that I was once in a jodel with no instrumentation on a club fly out over the channel and took the opportunity of tagging along with a Cessna 150 for the return journey. He had instrumentation. The vis meant that I could only just see where the water and sky were. Much easier to keep the right way up following loosely his wing as a horizon.
It was the safer option but I still wouldnt advise planning to do that.
Suffice it to say the term formation if correctly used has a clear meaning to do with primary references and responsibility of parties. A loose gaggle is a different matter. There are many posts on this.
It is simple if you haveny practiced and briefed then there is a clear answer - dont do it.
Personally I would rather be five feet from an aircraft knowing where it is than fifty feet or five hundred feet and wondering where it has gone. BUT I have trained and practiced.
Having said that I was once in a jodel with no instrumentation on a club fly out over the channel and took the opportunity of tagging along with a Cessna 150 for the return journey. He had instrumentation. The vis meant that I could only just see where the water and sky were. Much easier to keep the right way up following loosely his wing as a horizon.
It was the safer option but I still wouldnt advise planning to do that.
Formation Flying
As a pilot who regularly (several times a year) flies very long distances (getting on for 1000nm) in formation, including a channel crossing, I am reading this thread with great interest.
I very greatly enjoy formation flying, and when done properly it is a major win-win for getting multiple aircraft to cover a large distance - the most experienced guy, or at least the one who knows the route best, leads and the no. 2 (and 3, 4, ... if they exist) only have to focus on their station-keeping. The minimum equipment requirements for the non-lead aircraft is lower (esp. no need for transponder), there is no need to be familiar with the route (but they will learn it for next time), R/T is simplified, and **crucially** it provides an additional safety margin in the event of going into the Channel - faster alerting of D&D, relaying lat/long of survivors, and can be helpful with overland situations too.
BUT - and it is a very big but indeed - formation flying is a very specific flying skill which must be learned. It is highly dangerous to engage in DIY formation flying (as someone else described it), whether formal close formation or loose formation. Crucially - and I disagree with some previous posters over this - it is a myth that flying in loose formation is more safe for novices than close formation, for two reasons. First, in close formation you have no option other than to be highly and minutely focussed on the aircraft you are formating on. As it requires less concentration, loose formation can lead to a lower level of awareness of the location of the lead aircraft - which is still quite near!! This could be - and has been - a recipe for disaster. Second, in loose formation you are naturally going to be less focussed on navigation, situational awareness, etc. Again I fear that this can lull the non-lead pilot into a false sense of securiy and can impair the process of responding to a changing situation. Lastly, in the event of comms problems in formation (which I have experienced several times) you need to be within visual range of the other aircraft to pass hand signals.
My advice is pretty clear - get some proper training in formation flying from a reputable outfit, which will cover not only joining, leaving and station-keeping, but also focussing on "formation management" issues: planning, briefing, hand-signals, dealing with emergencies, formation leading, etc. etc. Once you have had this training, go and enjoy it - formation flying is imho one of the most rewarding aspects of flying, and one which very few civilians get to appreciate properly. Until then, go as two singletons - it's safer overall.
I very greatly enjoy formation flying, and when done properly it is a major win-win for getting multiple aircraft to cover a large distance - the most experienced guy, or at least the one who knows the route best, leads and the no. 2 (and 3, 4, ... if they exist) only have to focus on their station-keeping. The minimum equipment requirements for the non-lead aircraft is lower (esp. no need for transponder), there is no need to be familiar with the route (but they will learn it for next time), R/T is simplified, and **crucially** it provides an additional safety margin in the event of going into the Channel - faster alerting of D&D, relaying lat/long of survivors, and can be helpful with overland situations too.
BUT - and it is a very big but indeed - formation flying is a very specific flying skill which must be learned. It is highly dangerous to engage in DIY formation flying (as someone else described it), whether formal close formation or loose formation. Crucially - and I disagree with some previous posters over this - it is a myth that flying in loose formation is more safe for novices than close formation, for two reasons. First, in close formation you have no option other than to be highly and minutely focussed on the aircraft you are formating on. As it requires less concentration, loose formation can lead to a lower level of awareness of the location of the lead aircraft - which is still quite near!! This could be - and has been - a recipe for disaster. Second, in loose formation you are naturally going to be less focussed on navigation, situational awareness, etc. Again I fear that this can lull the non-lead pilot into a false sense of securiy and can impair the process of responding to a changing situation. Lastly, in the event of comms problems in formation (which I have experienced several times) you need to be within visual range of the other aircraft to pass hand signals.
My advice is pretty clear - get some proper training in formation flying from a reputable outfit, which will cover not only joining, leaving and station-keeping, but also focussing on "formation management" issues: planning, briefing, hand-signals, dealing with emergencies, formation leading, etc. etc. Once you have had this training, go and enjoy it - formation flying is imho one of the most rewarding aspects of flying, and one which very few civilians get to appreciate properly. Until then, go as two singletons - it's safer overall.
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If you look up the radio term “Combine” this will answer your question.
You must agree all the points before takeoff, as has been mentioned. If the faster aircraft takes off second he can usually join without ever loosing visual contact with the lead aircraft.
Flying 1/3 mile trail is not the same as a close formation. Two experienced pilots flying appropriate aircraft can fly the length of the UK with little problem provided the weather is good.
If you are tail end charley you are checking the leads nav, and maybe doing the radio. The aircraft not doing the radio will be asked by ATC to squawk standby. In good weather, it can be very relaxing. The gotch is that if you stop paying attention to your position and you suddenly get separated you are on your own with a very big circle of uncertainty!
I flew to Wick for the PFA rally this year. I flew in combine with an RV4 on the way up, and on my own on the way back. It was much harder work on the way back, but it was all really good fun.
Rod1
You must agree all the points before takeoff, as has been mentioned. If the faster aircraft takes off second he can usually join without ever loosing visual contact with the lead aircraft.
Flying 1/3 mile trail is not the same as a close formation. Two experienced pilots flying appropriate aircraft can fly the length of the UK with little problem provided the weather is good.
If you are tail end charley you are checking the leads nav, and maybe doing the radio. The aircraft not doing the radio will be asked by ATC to squawk standby. In good weather, it can be very relaxing. The gotch is that if you stop paying attention to your position and you suddenly get separated you are on your own with a very big circle of uncertainty!
I flew to Wick for the PFA rally this year. I flew in combine with an RV4 on the way up, and on my own on the way back. It was much harder work on the way back, but it was all really good fun.
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So that would be "Formation Posting" then?
Some good posts but a couple of comments:
1. There are not many of substance. Formation flying and flying in company has associated risks and everyone has made that clear. However plenty is written on aeros and in the same way you would be unwise to teach yourself. Having given the warning "dont try this at home" the poster is entitled to comment on what is involved.
2. I am not convinced that two aircraft flying in company in good viz is quite the challenge some of these posts might give the impression. There are clearly some associated risks, but with a good brief beforehand, a text book understanding of the issues involved and a reasonable level of experience it should not cause a problem.
My introduction was many years ago not long after I started flying. It was a cross channel and the delivery driver of a Yak was a bit worried about making the crossing in poor viz and with barely adequate equipment. He asked if he could formate on me. Strangely enough not disimiliar to the circumstances outlined. Perhaps stupidly I said he could - I had never flown in formation before. I told him so. He gave me a short brief over a cup of coffee. Off we went, he formating on me - I never thought an aircraft could settle so close on my wing. The weather was rubbish but cross we did. I loved it and it got me started. I subsequently found out who the driver that day had been - I guess I shouldnt have been worried.