Risky business . . .
 

I've recently started my PPL at Coventry, love it to bits, but the inherent risk in flying has really been brought home to me by the tragic accidents (unconnected) that occured not too far from here recently over Northants and Gloucs.

As someone with a wife and two young kids back home, I appreciated the risk element when I started out, but thought it unlikely that anything serious would happen, so I went for it. Now I'm wondering whether this really is such a good idea, particularly at this stage of my life. Yes I love flying and yes, I know that there's statistically more likelihood of getting seriously injured (or worse still) driving down the A45 on the way to the airfield. But flying IS (or at least is perceived to be) a hazardous activity, viz:

mortgage protection policies generally don't cover flying, neither will accidental life polices (confirmed to me this week). If anything was to happen to the insured (and main breadwinner), the consequences for the family are dire.

I got some career advice recently which included omitting 'Flying' and 'skiing' from my CV (under personal/interests) as they could send out the wrong signals to any prospective employer.

I have friends who say they simply wouldn't allow their partners fly '"cos it's too bl00dy dangerous".

What I'd like to know is how much consideration folks give to this - do we really give much thought to 'what might/could happen'? What do we do to 'insure' and/or to minimise the risks? Is it a case of "well if we really thought about it, we'd never get out of bed in the morning"? Are there insurance policies out there which cover recreational flying? Or is it best not to think too much and just get on and enjoy the experience?

Cheers,

HW

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Flying like many recreational sports

Scuba Diving
Climbing
Skiing
Motor racing
etc

is not without its risks. However it is possible to get the necessary life cover to protect your dependents in case the worst should happen, you just need to go to a specialist broker see the flying mags.

HW I totally understand where you are coming from - I too have had these thoughts, however this is my point of view on it.......

I do feel that because flying is such a passion for me, that I will not let thoughts like this get in the way of fulfilling my dreams. When I see my close family (the older generation) becoming ill and passing away, it makes me quickly realise that life is very, very short.

It is dangerous (no matter how good/safe you are), but then are so many other things in life. Do what you are good at and enjoy every minute of it. When my girlfriend drives to work (she's a nurse) on a cold winter night, I worry about her on the roads and hope that she gets to work safely - as there are so many idiots on the road these days. I am sure she worries about me when I fly (well, who knows :p) but if we thought like this too often, then we would never leave the house (saying that, in your house you can be drowned, burned, poisoned, gassed, and just about anything!!)

Safe flying, :ok:

Maz

PS. I am interested to know what the advice given to you was, regarding the CV? I do include a PPL on my CV at the bottom in the interests section - what were the reasons for taking it out?

Interesting one this. I had occasion to check the real statistics for various leisure activities a year or two ago, only to find that horse riding was one of the most dangerous.............

The bizarre thing is that insurance companies often simply don't bother to correctly calculate true risk for minority activities, so one ends up paying large premiums by default.

If you hunt around you will get cover though. I managed to persuade two companies to provide full mortgage life cover, with only a modest premium increase, when flying in bits of the Queens military hardware.

VP

It is extremley healthy to be aware of the risks associated with flying, and I commend you on your approach. But if you think about it too much you could expose yourself to becoming fixated upon the dangers, which could lead to problems with anxiety and fear whilst flying. If every time you fly you allow statistics to haunt you, your enjoyment will be ruined.

You seem like quite an analytical sort of person, so maybe the best thing for you is to establish the accident stastistics for GA flying, and understand the contributing factors. This will give you a balanced view on the risk distribution. Based upon this info, you can then configure your flying approach.

Most GA accidents happen as a result of pilot error, a lot of these are either caused by very low currency an/or over confidence.

Low currency in terms of instrument flying is deadly, over confidence encourages drift from reccomended procedures, such as not checking the fuel levels, weight & balance, poor planning etc etc.

Your risk assumption may find that flying microlights is the prefered option over spamcams, as this approach would reduce your chances of being tempted to fly in poor weather. Or you may find that training for an instrument qualification will increase your overall pilot skills.

One over-riding fact is true, if you choose a good flying school, and maintain regular training post PPL, you will find yourself in a much lower risk bracket.

Accidents caused by mid air collision, or mechanical/structural failure are very rare (although recent accidents are exceptions). These risks can also be reduced by the choice airfield, aircraft and maintenance setup.

I suspect that as you progress with your flying training, you will establish a much clearer view and will start to experience your flying boundaries. Just take it easy, relax with it, and soon the family will be desperate to go up with you.

Good airmanship is the main risk reducer.

I agree with yawning dog - a good summary.

My take is that most accidents are pilot error and by being a careful pilot I can avoid that. Accidents from mechanical failure or other circumstances beyond the pilot's control are rare. Even then with careful attention to the weather forecasts and with the route when flight planning, a careful pilot can minimise the risk of injury. I feel more at risk driving the car or crossing the road.

Someone mentioned microlights as an alternative. I gain comfort from the high maintenance standards that are mandated in GA - it gives me greater confidence with the aircraft than what I would have in a microlight.

As far as the financial risk goes, if you cannot carry it personally, talk to an insurance broker. But dont get paranoic about the risk. It is not high if you are careful. Flying is NOT inherently dangerous. It can be unforgiving to the careless.

Bentleg

If you want these policies to cover flying you will need to pay an increased premium, but you should be able to get the cover.

I am in the process of moving and have told my mortgage protection insurer that I fly. They have sent me a form to fill in asking what types / how often / in what capacity, etc, as did my previous insurer.

RC

Learning to fly is one of the safest activities in personal aviation.

Once you get your license the trick is to conduct your flying as you have been trained.

• Remain within weight and balance limits
• Use the checklist
• Use adequate runways -- botched takeoffs on short runways are deadly
• Have adequate fuel and oil
• Stay out of weather your instructor would not let you fly in
• Ensure the a/c has been properly maintained

The big killer is being on a schedule where you must get back to work or to a business meeting or a family event and the weather and/or mechanicals fail to cooperate. Be ready to cancel or postpone the flight or land short of your destination and your odds are a magnitude better.

Oh yes, the weekend trip to an interesting destination -- a good weather forecast for the time of the return trip is perhaps more important than the the forecast for the departure:ouch:

Agree with most of the sentiments stated here. Just to add to RBF's line about schedule, I was also told by my instructors "there's no Monday morning job in the world worth dying for" ie, don't push on in marginal conditions, even if you do "have to get back" as it's a hired plane or work tomorrow.

Also, when we took our mortgage out with the Virgin One account I made a big point about my flying, and they included it at no extra charge - I believe most policies will cover you, but may charge a bit more.

Life's not a rehearsal, enjoy it - and to me there's nothing more enjoyable than flying.... oh alright, maybe one other thing!

DW :ok:

Beer ;)

Damnit - forgot that one, make it two things then. Combining all threee would be pretty special!

Happy wanderer,

Many , if not all pilots have had the kind of doubts you are having, I certainly did.
My advice is to read "The killing zone"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...361619-2717226

This book is invaluable in helping to understand the causes of many GA accidents and in understanding we can improve our airmanship and have a better chance of avoiding the same mistakes.

Agree with Yorks - I read this a month or so after getting my PPL earlier this year - gives some great insights and advice. it's also stunning to see how some people approach flying!

Thing is, we all read these books and accident reports and so on, and think to ourselves, where appropriate, "well, I wouldn't be that stupid, would I, so I'm not going to get killed that way".

What we don't know is whether the accident victims thought the same.

Oh, and there are positive steps you can take. After reading about an accident in which a failed ASI may have been a contributory factor I realised that I had never flown a circuit and landing with no ASI, so next time I was up with an instructor I got him to cover the ASI to see how I would cope. With that experience I would not now expect a real ASI failure to throw me into such a panic that I crashed the aircraft.

Calculated risk taking is a healthy trait.

Sitting on your ar5e, watching reality tv programmes, konging your whopper- now that is dangerous :cool:

Fly safe!

Happy Wanderer,

Good advice above, basically if you kill yourself when flying a small airplane it's very very likely going to be your fault. So you are in control, but you should never get complacent. Everybody says they will never run out of fuel but then quite a lot do, it could happen to any of us if we get lazy.

What I tell people is that it's a lot safer than riding a motorcycle and a bit more dangerous than driving a car. Do I have statistics to prove that? Not really, but it feels about right, and statistics on this subject are not clear anyway.

Insurance companies can be frustrating as they will happily insure you to ride a motorcycle with no loading, but not a light aircraft. There are solutions to this as outlined above.

In my experience there was no problem with Life Assurance for a PPL holder. I made a declaration when applying, was asked to fill out an "Aviation Questionnaire" (just bog standard questions about experience, types of aircraft flown, details of any accidents/incidents etc). Sent it off, they acknowledged receipt and that was the last I heard (no significant additional charges that I'm aware of).

Fate is the hunter....when your numbers come up, they come up. The best thing to do is try and minimise this by being as well trained as possible and not take silly risks.....Anyway had you NOT gone flying, you might have been killed by a runaway lorry or fallen off your roof adjusting the TV aerial.

My view (after reading loads of books on quantum physics) is that Space Time exists, and therefor we exist elsewhere in space time and therefor our future already co-exists elsewhere in space time with the past.....so there is not a damn thing you can do about it anyway :D

I seem to remember someone on here did the numbers about a year ago and concluded that it was about the same risk as riding a motorcyle - which might be seen as a bit 'mid-life crisis' at your age, but not as suicidal risk-taking.

Agree insurance can be iffy: but my extra premium for life assurance with Scottish Provident was 12p/month, so they get the thumbs up, as do Traffords for travel insurance which allows me to fly e.g. in the US when on holiday.

Tim

Eh? :confused: ;)

As a newly-wed, I sometimes get a sinking, guilty feeling on my way to the airfield when it occurs to me that I might be shirking my responsibility to my loved ones to look after myself. It was the thought of what would go through my parents' heads if I died needlessly that started me wearing cycle helmets and defying peer pressure; this is a similar kind of thought process.

I know my husband worries about whether there's a chance he may not see me again when I go off to fly without him but it is a measure of his trust in me that he doesn't try to stop me - and a sign of his love that he would rather I was doing what makes me me and happy.

After witnessing the horrific accident at Kemble earlier this year, this all became much more immediate. I don't think I really understood about the shocking, raw violence of death before that.

After that, probabilities and logical reasoning as a means of justification became a bit meaningless. My way of dealing with the risk psychologically is more to accept it, try and minimise it and decide for myself ultimately whether or not I think it worthwhile. I'm with Mazzy so far, though I reserve the right to change my mind one day if I decide to!

NB - My recent careers advisor (outplacement support... :rolleyes: ) drooled all over my CV complete with flying achievements and looked at me as if I was loony when I asked if i should get rid of that bit! Guess it's a matter of taste.

What you need to avoid is the recruiter looking at the CV and thinking "yeah, fine, but with all that going on when is she going to find time to actually do some work?". I have decided not to call someone for interview because it looked from their CV as if their leisure activities were enough to occupy 25 hours per day.

Personally I do put flying on my CV ... but not the fact that I am a councillor (which does involve rather more time off work during office hours), largely on the grounds that if I get to the interview and the interviewer doesn't know by that stage that I'm a councillor, well, it's hardly my fault if they can't be bothered to do their homework.

A comparison with a motorbike isn't fair.

I have about 100k miles on a motorbike (from the 1970s and early 1980s, when traffic density was about 1/3 of today) and, assuming a reasonably competent rider, the chance of getting killed (as opposed to just grinding off a piece of skin) on one is tiny.

Until cars come into the picture.

Then, all of a sudden, you are playing Russian roulette.

You are approaching a side road, with some old geezer (or old girl) about to pull out. He's looking in your direction, you have your lights on, but he still pulls out.

Flying is nothing like that. Assuming a well maintained aircraft (quite an assumption sometimes, if one is limited to standard G-reg self fly hire), 99% of accidents are pilot error.

Mid-airs are so rare one can forget them, as a probability.

The thing I like about flying is that if I plan carefully, fly carefully, the chance of kicking the bucket is miniscule. I would much rather fly than drive, say 100nm or more. And that's true even if I have to do a GPS/VOR DIY IAP at the far end.

Happy Wanderer,

If you enjoy your flying (and obviously you do), and you take care, do some planning, then hopefully you will make it as safe as it can be.

When an aircraft has an accident - it makes the news, fact.

A few weeks back a Cessna made a forced landing less than a mile away from my house (the pilot was unhurt) and the newspapers had a hay-day. Two days ago, the traffic at the end of my street came to a standstill due to a road traffic accident, sadly there was a fatality but nothing was reported in the papers or local news?

I do understand your concerns tho, I have two young daughters and the same thoughts have crossed my mind - what would happen to the family if something happened to me?

I try to fly as safely as I possibly can - I was checked out on a 172 last month and the instructor asked me if my pre-flight checks always took so long? 'Yep' was my reply 'and 'sometimes longer' I added.

You never know what is around the corner and waiting for you? My wife was diagnosed with cancer 4 years ago and is receiving ongoing treatment, her outlook on life has changed dramatically. She has gone from being someone who would never take a risk on anything - and I mean anything, to someone wants to grab the bull by the horns and stick two fingers up to anyone who doesn't agree with that view.

Do what you want to do - but be safe.

Good luck

PD:ok:

I believe that the reason we have so much trouble with insurance is that there aren't enough of us doing it. The accident rate is really low as compared to motorcycling or driving but since we are a very small group they have no interest in dealing with us. If pilots numbered in the millions or even the hundreds of thousands, they would be fighting to get our business.

Generally it is worth remembering that when we have an accident, it is fairly terminal and the world will hear of it. We can bimble along in our cars and have as many accidents as we like and still survive. How many people do you know who have never had a prang in their motor? I mean never. Not many I'll bet. The chances of having an accident in an aircraft are pretty low providing you act sensibly.

I think the figure for pilot error causing accidents in GA is 83% (NTSB figures, don't know about the UK).

With regards mortgage life insurance - I mentioned it to the company I use. The (young sounding) call centre chap said 'No problem'. So I left it a couple of days and called back, this time got someone who went away to check. Still 'No problem'. I asked if they wanted something in writing from me - to confirm that I had told them - 'No, nothing required. You are covered'.

With regards PHI, life insurance at work: I stated I was a PPL student and that I had a CAA medical (Class II). Oh Lordy, this stirred up a whole lot of hassle. Now I need to go for more medical tests - which I *didn't* have to do before I told them I was learning to fly??? Go figure.

With regards to risk. Well, yes. It is something you and only you can make the decision on. My view is that this flying lark sharpens your senses, makes you a better person at assessing risks and really improves situational awareness. I've found that my driving habits are much more moderate since learning to fly. I just don't seem to take those risks that I would have previously.

And finally, with regards to skiing / flying / etc. on the CV. I'd put these in every time. If a company were to discriminate on those grounds it says much more about them than you. It demonstrates that you are outgoing and ready to learn new skills, that you are risk taker, but only when the risk is measured and you are in control. I've spent time both as an interviewer and interviewee, and also had 1-2-1 executive coaching. Key characteristics for roles I'm at in my organisation are the ability to be cool, calm and collected under pressure - can you demonstrate this? - Yes, when flying. You have to be able to demonstrate self assuredness and confidence (but not arrogance) - can you demonstrate this? - Yes, when flying. Can you demonstrate an ability to be free thinking, yet when it matters, to adhere to mandated processes and procedures? - Yes, when flying.

I'm not saying you answer all your interview questions with reference to flying ;-), but it can help you focus your answers. Skiiing has similar attributes - one wrong decision or loss of control could have catastrophic results for you.

If you have any problems with insurance then try On Risk - they're brokers and sorted me out even though I fly for fun, fly for a living, smoke and ride horses (though never all at the same time).

I do everything that I can to ensure that I'm as safe as I can be but I refuse to sit in my chair at 80 wishing that I'd done it.

"I think the figure for pilot error causing accidents in GA is 83% (NTSB figures, don't know about the UK)."

Do you have the reference, SS?

I don't doubt you, but I'd like to see the breakdown of the other 17%.

The only real worry in flying is loss of control surface(s) or structural failure. The other stuff, e.g. engine failure, is adequately covered by having a second chance, and the probability of two unconnected systems failing concurrently is unbelievably low. An engine failure over land means a forced landing; I think about 80% of those are without injury. For example flying over water is covered by carrying a raft (the chance of an engine failure AND an in-service-interval raft failing to open is near zero). Even flying over mountains above an overcast layer is covered by carrying a GPS with terrain data and being high enough - much as that will make some people cringe.

17% is an awful lot for structural failure in an aircraft operated within design limits. If someone flies into a CB at Vne+20kt and it breaks up, I'd call that "pilot error" too.

IO540,

Busy now, when I get back from hols.

I said pilot error comes to 83%. Include human mechanic caused maintanance errors and you get closer to 90%. These are from memory, different years may have different figures.

You came out with 99%, where is your evidence for that?

Merry Christmas

A guesstimate of

100% - (loss of control surface(s) or structural failure)

Can't be far off.

I suppose a lot depends on whether one excludes microlights; they must get a higher % of structural failures (flying WITHIN the operating envelope I mean).

I think to consider the risks and be aware is healthy, but as has been said, don't become fixated on them.

I get butterflies before flying full size and my r/c models, but once the engine is going, checks being done, my mind is focussed.

Driving home last night I nearly had a head-on at 60mph+; I just rounded a corner and a car is on my side of the road doing an overtake. Less than a second to react, no point braking, just tuck myself into the verge.

Not much you can do about that.

Had a suspension failure on my car a year or so ago. That made me think. I didn't crash it, but had it happened a mile or two earlier, I could have gone off the road and down a big drop.

Not much I could do about that one either.

When flying you've probably got more time than driving, if something goes wrong. Engine failure, even after take off, you've probably got five or six seconds to recognise, react and decide. Head-on as above, suspension failure and into a tree or whatever; not a chance. Structural failure in aircraft, not a chance. Likelyhood very small in non-aerobatic flying.

I'd rather be flying.

Roughly speaking around 89% of the CAUSE of GA accidents is human performance and limitations. 4 % is environmental reasons (wind shear etc...) and the remainder is down to aircraft failures.

Of aircraft failures roughtly half are due to power plant / propulsion, with 25% being related to "Fluid". Struture makes up about 10%.

Of human performance, roughly 65% is due to "Aircraft handling and control", and about a third due to "planning and decision making", the remainder is a mix.

This NTSB document for the year 2000 makes interesting reading:
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2004/ARG0401.pdf

Didn't have any trouble with mortgage and/or insurance. All I had to do was fill in an 'Aircrew Questionaire' which asked for hours, type of flying (recreational or biz) and a few other questions. Never heard from them again (and have remortgaged two or three times in the interval, remaining with same insurance). If you shop around a bit, this should really not be a problem.

About the risk - that's a different matter. I reckon (other than the various comments above), one of the biggest risk-reducing strategies is the courage to say NO. No to a flight in marginal conditions, no to pushing on in weather that's getting worse, no to departing with an airplane you're not 100% sure about. It's not easy to send friends who have come to the aiport for a pleasure flight back home, I know. But sometimes this is exactly what you have to do.

Enjoy flying - and stay careful up there.

It's an attitude thing, as my CFI used to say. Your question already indicates that you're highly interested in flying as safely as possible, which is great.

Besides the excellent advice already contributed, I add two.
1) Always be aware of your risk-taking level. Often, one risk is manageable but taking several risks at once (for example, both marginal weather and lowish fuel status) may lead to problems. 2) Browse through accident reports at the AAIB website. After reading say fifty reports, you'll have a decent picture of what causes accidents and how they could have been avoided. Use that knowledge.

Happy Wanderer,

With regard to the CV thing. There is a view by some that putting your hobbies on the CV is a bit naff. Was the advice to remove it related to the general idea of a hobbies section or flying/sking in particular.

On the question of risk, some potentially useless anecdotal evidence: I used to be a London motorcycle courier and a bike nut in general. I know a few dead bikers (non couriers strangely) but I don't know of any dead pilots even though I probably know/knew of more pilots than bikers.

That's it in a nutshell. Decision-making would have to be one of the more important skills in flying - and one that's difficult to teach I'd think.
For me, I fly solely for the fun of it. So I can keep outside pressures to a minimum (Weather's marginal? ahh well, suppose we'll stay on the ground today - there's always next weekend!) - no 'schedule' to keep as such. And I'd like to keep it that way! It's one way of reducing the risk somewhat.
Life's short - flying's too fun to miss out on - and if something should happen to me while I'm up there, hopefully it was because I made an 'original' mistake. Read the accident report, learn from it and don't make the same mistake I did!!

Adam

Thought-provoking topic.

just to endorse what most posters have said, insurance shouldn't be a problem given either sympathetic insurers and / or a modicum of shopping around.

Risk? Well yes it's an issue. At 250 hrs there have been times when I have been scared and worried. But would I give it up because of that? No. I enjoy flying too much. So I think about risk the whole time to try to be as sure as I can that I don't kill myself (or anyone else). And I've insured myself up to the hilt. At least if I go West my wife and kids can say - he died doing what he wanted to most of all and he made sure we wouldn't suffer - financially at least...

IO540,

I suppose a lot depends on whether one excludes microlights; they must get a higher % of structural failures (flying WITHIN the operating envelope I mean).

Microlights in the UK are required to meet a minimum design flight envelope of +6 and -3 G. In the flight manual this is limited to a operatin limit of +4 and -2G.

In 3 axis microlights, structural failure is as rare as it is in VLA or -23 aircraft.

Some of the older types actually come out at meeting a +8 limit and due to the high drag have to be aimed vertically down to reach VNE.

A matchstick can withstand over 100G.

Regards,

DFC

Happy New Year to all.

Happy Wanderer,

Take a look at this AOPA report (pdf). Suggests that 75% of accidents are pilot error, so you have a lot of influence on how safe your general aviation flying is. Don't become complacent.

Why is comparing motor cycle safety to general aviation safety wrong? It's easy for a new pilot asking the question to understand and uses an example we can get our heads around. It seems to me that it is generally accepted that flying on airlines is safer than driving a car. Why not say flying GA is safer than riding a bike? (Unless it isn't, does anybody believe that?)

But it will burn in the post-crash conflagration!

CG