What would make you choose one airfield/flyingschool over another?
 

We've been having a bit of a row between the instructors and management at a flying school I teach at. We the instructors are fed up with niggly little problems on a/c and feel that the punters are getting a bit of a raw deal sometimes.

I'm interested to know whether things like unserviceabilities, frequent instructor changes etc. are acceptable? I don't think they are but I come from a different view point.

What are the things people look for when choosing a club or airfield to fly from and what would make you stay or look for pastures new? Price, pass rates, a/c, facilities, competition etc. Is price the be all and end all? Would you pay more for nice new shiny machines?

It would be nice to see some views of the people who actually pay our wages!;)

I think everyone has a different view on this, and the answer is that it depends who you are trying to target.

The airfield I fly from is not the cheapest around. I did my PPL training there because I liked the feel of the place, I liked the instructors I met, they are more of a club than a school, with renting, fly-outs, seminars and so on regularly organised for PPL-holders, and the PA28s they taught in were more comfortable than C152s other schools taught in. I paid a premium for this, and I didn't mind paying a premium.

But that's just my view - others would far rather learn in a knackered C152, at a school where both of the instructors fly mainly for fun on their days off from their regular jobs, because it's the only way they can afford to fit flying in with the rest of their life.

Right now, the renting which I do is mainly for IMC flying. I hire nearly-new C172s, and I pay (I think) a lot of money for them. For that money, I get a fully working panel, suitable for airways flying if I was appropriately qualified, including GPS and auto-pilot. A PPL student would, quite frankly, be wasting his money flying these aircraft - he would be far better off in the club's PA28s, which are much older and have bits of avionics which he will never use anyway which don't work. That, I think, is reflected in the fact that the C172s have fairly low usage compared to the PA28s.

I know that "it depends" wasn't the answer you wanted, but it's my answer anyway!

FFF
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Hello,

Here it goes:

When i started flying i joined x flying school which i believe is one of the largest in the uk and according to them the best, for the moment i step foot in their facilities i knew i wasnt going to be impressed but still i gave them try and i didn't like it, they treat students like if they were doing "us" a favour by teaching us how to fly ( even though we were the ones paying ) arrogant staff ( not all of them but a big % ). Now their a/c are well maintained and the airfield is in a really nice spot in the country. As for the prices they are expensive, very.

My current flying school, is not as well known as the previous one, but the standards are way superior, the aircraft very well maintained ( although the cessnas are a bit old, as for the pipers no complaints whatsoever ).

Prices are acceptable, the instructors are brilliant and as for me and many other students, we all like the envoirement and we are treated like "part of the family".

I love that de-briefing cup of tea with the instructor after the flight.

The best choice i made :ok:

I think the most important things are quality of instruction and a well-run, friendly and organized school. Instructors should be good, if they aren't then i'm off elsewhere. Aeroplanes going u/s and instructors not being available is part of flying, and it's fine if it isn't every other lesson and you're actually told in advance when it happens - rather than arriving ready to fly to find no aeroplane or an instructor who has b*ggered off to ferry someone to Hebden Bridge International at five minutes notice. If your usual instructor isn't around, then the replacement should know exactly what you did last time and what you've come to do today... without having to ask you :)

Cost? Well, obviously we'd all like to fly for a fiver an hour, but provided the prices are similar to the local competition then it isn't a major issue. If you're paying an extra £30/hr for nothing much then it is. Facilities are worth a small premium, but don't matter much. I'm just as happy at a club run from a shed if they get the basics right.

Choice of aeroplane? only really important if you are after something specialist (IFR-equipped, aerobatic, tailwheel, whatever) because when it comes to a PPL or a local bimble there's not really much between a Cessna and a Piper. Might swing it if there's nothing else between two schools, and a new aeroplane is worth paying a bit extra for if it's that or some sh*gged out C150.

FFF, "it depends!" is about right. Everyone has different ideas about what they want from a club and I woud like to find out what people use to judge differences between schools and get a bit of a straw poll on what most people are after.

For any a/c owners, what are the big issues about where you base a machine? Location, costs, maintenance available etc. What sort of premium are you prepared to pay for top class facilities. At what point would you feel the airfield was taking the mick?

Hangarage and Landing Fees! :{

Do already, but demand is so high they can charge what they want. Despite the cost, i think we're still happy to have a hangar space. :rolleyes:

Say again s l o w l y

The answer will depend hugely on why one is learning to fly. So you've got to look at the profile of the students you are attracting.

What determines the profile is another matter; basically the quality of the customer is determined by the perceived quality of the product or service, which in GA is usually poor, which is why the majority of customers are people with little money and little motivation to fly after they get their PPL.

At my airfield about 75% are doing a PPL as a personal challenge, and a few with a distant airline pilot ambition, and to all those price is very important. Everything else is secondary, which is doubtless why the place is so disorganised: it was pretty routine to find the instructor+plane missing because the plane “went tech” or a trial lesson was given priority over a prebooked student lesson. But nobody complained. It is said we get the politicians we deserve, and we get the flying schools we deserve too.

Speaking for myself, I learnt to fly to go to places. From day 1 it was apparent that the IMC Rating was a must and that few of the available planes would be much good, so I was looking for syndicates etc. I was p****d off with the knackered planes, maintenance, and with some of the instructors too, hour-building time wasters. I know a lot of instructors hate students like me, preferring compliant types who do as they are told and then vanish when they get the PPL, and they often say so here and elsewhere. I bought my own plane as soon as I could. But I know nobody locally who learnt to fly to go to places or fly on business, and obviously not many can buy something, so this isn’t a useful data point either.

So much depends on whether you, as the flying school operator, have the means to change the whole perception of your "product". If not (if you always fly the same knackered old planes) then price will always matter strongly, social scene (number of attractive female students, bar meetings, flyouts) will be next. Nice sociable easy to get on with instructors next (essential for female students). Organisation is nice to have but anyone hanging on for long enough in this environment won’t be that fussy about delays; not to the extent of walking out.

The real question is whether you can get modern planes, have a good catchment area, and are prepared to rock the boat :O

For owners, it depends on what they have. Anything worth over say 70k is worth putting in a hangar, simply on the basis of annual cost of rotting avionics/etc versus annual hangarage. Landing fees of below 15 quid are fine unless again you are flying something low cost.

S A S, I think as has been said “it all depends” is the correct response. Like so much in aviation you get what you pay for. I suspect a good number of people will go on price and accept the hassle of u/s a/c etc etc as the reason they are paying a lower price than elsewhere.

From my own experience however I think there is more to it, and I agree with your sentiment that shabby aircraft which may or may not be serviceable, lack of available good instructors, or instructors who have no idea what happened in the last lesson are unacceptable at any price. The fact that your boss clearly thinks it is OK, is symptomatic of what makes the PPL market in many places the refuge of crappy little one man bands running knackered old aircraft on a shoe string, struggling to keep an aged couple of planes airborne with the minimum of cost.

It is perfectly possible to run a fleet of quality aircraft, with minimal unplanned downtime (everything will be out of the air at some point even if it’s only for checks) where all the knobs and dials work, and where the aircraft are clean tidy and cared for.

It is also possible to have staff that are pleasant, well mannered interested and dedicated to the job they are paid to do. All this adds up to a feeling as a customer, that you are dealing with a proper business, run on professional and commercial lines that is in control of itself, and its offerings to its customers. Too many school are, and give the impression that they are, nothing more than a dumping ground for wannabe airline drivers, owned by ex or wannabe jet drivers with little or no business acumen.

First impressions count, if it looks like a heap of ****, it probably is. Always buy up to quality and not down to price, that was the entire industry will benefit.

IO I totally agree with what you say.
It is very frustrating when you a business that seems to have all the right ingredients, Catchment area, only school on the field, tarmac strip, maintenance, hangarage, close to controlled airspace, major transport links nearby, lots of land available for any expansion, Large and loyal membership base, actually in profit!, some new machines, dedicated and experienced instructing staff, warm and friendly atmosphere etc.etc. and yet seems to lurch from problem to problem due to the inability and lack of will of the owner to spend just a small bit of money on keeping the facilities and a/c in top notch condition but allow it all to deteriorate.
There is a chronic lack of ground staff and those that there are, are club members who mean well, but do it part time and don't really understand the operational side of the business.

I was in a position to maybe take over from the current management, but somebody else offered more but subsequently turned out to be a 'Walter Mitty' type so that deal has fallen by the wayside. I'm not really interested in going through the whole rigmarole again, but I wonder if at least my thinking and that of the rest of the instructors is indeed correct.

In addition to everything that's been said so far, it's probably also worth pointing out that PPRuNe is probably not a representative sample of your students.

Unfortunately, it is true that many students fly because it seems like a fun thing to do, but give up when they realise that it's something which requires a bit of dedication. For aviation as a whole, that's sad - but for a flying school, these students must represent a large chunk of income. I doubt whether you'll find many of this type of person on PPRuNe, though - a whole section of your customer base who you are not sampling!

FFF
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Good point!!:ok: PPrune may not be totally representative, but it hopefully may give some good opposing views.

Trial lessons actually make up a large part of our business, but it really is the regular students and PPL's who are the absolute core. Most people who start will usually finish, obviously there are a few who will do 10hrs and then quit, but these are minimal when compared to the twice a week or more regulars.

Lean, mean IFR machines need hangarage, but so do lots of fabric-covered Permit aeroplanes. Many permit aeroplanes migrate off to farm strips and the like, but I would think that the convenience of an airfield (easy for fuel, maintainance, a cuppa afterwards) could attract a lot of those back if airfield costs were more reasonable. Obviously if you have a never ending waiting list, you charge what you feel like. If there's a bit of local competition then maybe it is a market worth chasing.

It is early days for the group I am in, but looking at the numbers so far hangarage and landing fees make up 1/2 to 2/3rds of my hourly rate. I'd jump at something that reduces that...

How about flying longer trips more frequently? ;)

FFF
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:p :p :p :)

Say again s l o w l y

As FFF says, this (or any other) online forum is not going to have a representative population of your prospective customers. But it's not a bad place to get feedback on what to do.

I have absolutely no ambition to start a flying school (I have a business which together with flying keeps me busy enough) but I have discussed the idea with enough MBAs over the years :O It comes up as often as whether a PPL could land a 747 if he had to...

I believe that the way, and the ONLY way, to make it work is to go for quality customers. There are loads about, in their 20s 30s 40s, not yet married, on 40k-70k p.a. Presently few of these are seen anywhere near airfields; the sight of a washing machine with wings strapped on top (a Cessna, even a brand new one) is enough for them.

This is why you will fail to beat the spamcan merchants even if you buy a fleet of brand new C172s (some 140k a time). I know this because I've seen it done. If Cessna/Piper were in the UK they would have gone the way of BSA, Norton, Enfield, Vincent etc, and it's no use pretending that just because Americans still buy them (just about) they are acceptable.

So how do you get these people in? Modern planes (not Cessnas or Pipers, DA40s will do nicely though) and nice advertising in the local press, and some national magazines. Not in the free local rags, and not in aviation mags either. Teach GPS almost from the start (along the mandatory PPL stuff of course) so people can see early on they WILL be able to fly without getting lost. Stress the modern planes and the nice environment, GPS, etc - this will hugely upset all other schools around which is why even people who spent six figs on new planes are afraid of advertising them using direct comparisons with the "national average", but if you are the only show for miles, you can do it.

Have facilities for post-PPL flyers. Very few schools have this - they want you to either spend money on more ratings (and frankly most don't have planes in which you can teach the IMCR never mind fly them real IFR) or to go away. But these people keep the students motivated, especially if they are in a syndicate in which shares are available.

There are a few other things but that's the essence.

I see you have another objective which is to attract resident owners to your airfield. I can't say more on this because there are so many different types of planes, being operated on very different budgets. I know I would need a hangar, and no potholes.

IO you've just described my former business plan! Being in the middle of the commuter belt for the city of London there are an awful lot of the type of punter you descibe living in the local area, I've got a friend who works for a large marketing firm and according to his data, the average salary within 10 miles of the field is circa 60k!

Anyone fancy setting up a PPrune flight school run in the way we all would like?:p

I guess that the sort of car you drive shows the sort of aeroplane that you would like to fly.

You could choose to drive round in a 15 year old banger, which keeps breaking down, looks worn out and is generally a bit minging. Similar to many of the c150/152s which are used by flying schools.

However, the people you really wont to attract to flying probably drive bmws/mercs/lexus, and replace them every few years. They wouldnt put up with a car with bits which stopped working, or were uncomfortable, or more importantly, that they didnt want other people to see them driving.

There must be many people who have significant quantities of cash, who would like to learn to fly, but who would like to do something new, and reliable, and good looking, not an ancient c150.

Some of the golf clubs with the longest waiting lists are the most expensive, and with the best facilities. These are the people who could be attracted to flying at a more 'executive' club.

I bet there would be plenty of people in the london area, who would pay a few hundred pounds to hire one of these...


http://www.diamondair.co.uk/gifs2/da421.jpg

and i know personally, that i would pay probably up to 50% more for a shiney new aircraft like a da40 - tdi over the warrior that i currently hire, however, there is a saying,

If you want to make a million out of aviation, start with 10 million

geoff

One of the best things a school can have is its own mechanics. My local school has 5 planes (2 twins, 3 singles) and 2 mechanics that keep them running and working for near 100% uptime.

In contrast, another local school has more (newer) planes, but they suffer from more downtime, cancelled lessons etc.

One school owner I know said they would be 'eaten alive' if they didn't have their own maintenance.

It kinda seems like planes are like old cars, need constant attention to minor stuff to avoid much worse.

I am always sceptical about nobody ever making any money from aviation.
It is very difficult and you need a good bit of capital to start with, but barring total disasters there shouldn't be any reason flying schools can't make money.
The reason most do badly in my experience is the total lack of imagination and business acumen that seems to pervade the GA community.(not including biz-jet operators here.)

If you give people what they want (DA40's for example) and you somehow manage to get a somebody else to buy it and allow you to operate it for them (ACMI) then where are the problems? This limits your risk and allows an aircraft owner to offset alot of the costs. A fantastic example of this is Modernair at Fowlmere. Derek has an incredibly loyal membership who don't mind paying a bit extra for new a/c that are well equipped and recent. Throw in a good number of away trips organised by the club (guaranteed income) and you have a recipe for success. The only problem is that the field is unlicenced now and they don't conduct any ab-initio training anymore.

This thread came about when a club member asked me if I would be happy picking up a hire car where the brakes were 'a bit dodgy', half the lights didn't work and it looked like something your grandfather would have driven. When I said "of course not" he replied, well why should I be happy to pay £100/hr for an a/c like that.
I was pretty embarrased and mumbled an apology and I realised that I had given up bashing my head against the brick wall that was the U/S lists since unless a machine was grounded nothing was ever done. So I grounded 3 a/c yesterday purely out of spite as I'm fed up of making excuses to students about lights that don't work, spongy brakes etc. I'm waiting for the explosion for when the boss gets back from his holiday and after reading what has been written here, I now feel totally justified and ready to take what ever gets chucked in my direction.

SAS / NinjaBill

Re that old saying about needing a large fortune to make a small fortune (in aviation); one only has to look at the typical business operator in there to see where it comes from.

Many have no money, no business skills, and are attracted to flying as some sort of romantic pursuit.

Some have money, no business skills, are attracted to flying as some sort of romantic pursuit, and quickly team up with a fast talking cowboy who has the gift of the gab, has no money, and no business skills.

Some have money, have business skills from another trade but seem to forget them the moment they get “involved”.

The reason many businesses last as long as they do is because there is always somebody willing to turn up at 8am and sit by the phone, even if they are not getting paid.

In the right location it can be done. It takes capital, good marketing, good management, well chosen instructors (not from the school next door) who get on with each other, and slick premises. Plus a total lack of Cessnas and Pipers :O

Having a licensed engineer on the staff would be a huge help with operating costs; I have seen this both with licensed individuals who get much cheaper flying than anyone else, and with licensed owners of multiple identical aircraft who lease them off to schools.

I think you only need to look at the yachting market to realise what could be done in GA. Its the same kind of people who sail as who fly. The average boat costs as much as or more than a plane. Marina fees are usually more than hangarage. The big marina operators have come in in the last 20 years or so, run the marinas like proper businesses and invested; and people are willing to pay for the product these guys provide.

Sunsail is one of the biggest sailing holiday providers - they provide new boats, good locations, good staff and they are successful as a result. And best of all, the punters buy the boats for them. GA schools could do this.

This is a pretty darn interesting thread if I may so, I've recently got my PPL and flew at 2 different clubs with a bit of break in between (had to give up for a bit).

The first club had a great social atmosphere but I must have ended up flying with 8 different instructors, a couple of whom were complete tools. The a/c were dogs of the knackered variety apart from a new Katana, but you could never book it as every man and his dog wanted to fly it! Plus no groundschool whatsoever.

When I resumed flying, I was determined not to repeat the experience, so I had a long chat with the CFI of the new club before committing. Basically my new club has had it's fair share of problems and it's fair to say the a/c are not in the first flush of youth but the instructors (despite being hour-building budding airline types) are excellent, the CFI was a great chap and his groundschool was superb (he's recently left and will be sadly missed). These factors counted for a lot and they don't want to see the back of you when you've passed, having some great packages to keep you flying.

If I were to start the dream flying club, it would be:

New or late a/c coupled some older but well maintained types for slightly cheaper flying for those hour building types

Salaried instructors coupled with flight pay to get a better calibre and engender slightly more loyalty.

Excellent classroom facilities for groundschool, plus some good groundschool instructors, coupled with good audio visual and CBT facilities

Large well equipped briefing rooms

On-line booking of a/c plus on-line availability displays

Bar!

Flyouts, trips etc

Fit female instructors! (really helped me pass :) )

Having read the replies so far, it's made me think about dusting off my plans. Just have to knock the price down and try and get some start up capital from somewhere. Easy!!!:}

It's all very well saying what everybody wants from a school, but is anybody prepared to put their money where their mouth is? If you've got any sense, then probably not, but if you've got a spare million or 2 getting in the way then I'm all ears!

Aim Far

I don’t think sailing compares; the profile of the individual is different. Sailing is usually a team sport (though you can sail a dinghy or a £1M gin palace on your own if you want to) which makes it an all-or-nothing all-weekend activity which excludes most other weekend hobbies. It is also usually dead slow so it takes for ever to get anywhere, making it nearly useless for business travel. I know of a few marinas where the boats are knackered enough to compare with GA but generally an awfully lot more money gets spent in sailing than in flying. It’s an interesting comparison though; advertising to attract the people who spend big money on sailing might work.

VFR800

I don’t think new planes should cost more per hour than knackered old ones. With new, you get a warranty, plus pretty low costs for some years afterwards. You can still get a £200k dog which incurs a high avionics failure rate but if you have several on a fleet, that would average out. And if it’s too bad you sue the dealer – with an old plane with a major defect you just have to write the cheque or the plane is worth scrap.

Say again s l o w l y

500k should do it, or a lot less if you can finance the planes.

Around 500K is about right, but I would always like a bit more if possible.

Unfortunately the current owner has a grossly inflated view of the value of the business, since it involves the leasehold (worthless to be honest) of the airfield and maintenance too.(Again not worth much with one engineer and very few facilities.)
It became especially difficult to raise capital since the books were 'interesting' to say the least! I knew how much was coming in and going out, but lets just say that the profit didn't match my expectations!! Trying to get money out of the City with worthless bits of paper and on my say so was an interesting experience!
I'm waiting for the need to sell to become more pressing and then we'll see what may happen.

I think the sailing analogy is actually pretty accurate, but since yachts are treated like second homes, people are more willing to spend vast sums on them. Difficult to sleep a family in a 172. They are more likely to be a Dad's toy rather than something for the whole family.
However people who are able to afford yachts etc. are exactly the type of punter you want to attract. Having been brought up around Boats and sailing. Owning a yacht really is like standing in a shower and ripping up £50 notes, a bit like owning an a/c really! Chandleries (or Swindleries as they are better known) make places like Transair seem like Matalans!
If you can attract these people, you do need to have a club house that looks at least a bit clean and servicable, rather than the knackered portacabins that seem to litter the airfields of the U.K.

Hmm the sailing analogy is an interesting one, like Say Again I too spent much of my early years playing with boats.

I'm not sure however, that it does directly correlate. If you take the average 34ft cruiser-racer you'll have one owner and another 5 or 6 bods to help him or her race it (even when crusing there be the owner plus three or four people on the boat who don't own it) so for the vast majority of people sailing boats the cost is mostly kit - not cheap... doubt you'd get much change from 1K if you had all the singing and dancing foul weather gear, thermals and what not - and beer. Granted the the owner will be busy in the shower tearing up £50 notes but for the remainder the cost is not that massive. I recall a serious race boat I sailed which had an owner new to the sport who was told "look mate your job is to sit at the back, sign cheques and collect trophies so keep quiet and don't touch ANYTHING". Which must be a bit galling when you already shelled out well over £250K and will probably lay out another £100K before the year is out (this was the early 80s).

Another interesting comparision would be to examine the number of aircraft that actually fly on a given airfield - if you take the average marina about 80-90% of the boats never move from one month to the next. It is not uncommon for a boat to actually go anywhere only once or twice during it's ownership - the rest of time it's somewhere nice for Aunt Fanny to come to tea.
I suspect that for privately owned aircraft, utilisation rates are also pretty low of course not everybody can or wants to go flying all the time (I know weird eh...you know there are even some poor souls who don't even like flying).

I think that much of this comes from the reasons why people take up flying (or sailing). In the first place, there is an image thing it's cool to be a pilot (or flash to have a boat), then there is the challenge of learning new skills. And once these hurdles have been overcome then there is a void the reality of looking after an aircraft (or 3 o'clock in the morning on a channel crossing when it's raining horozontally and the wind is on the nose and you've got at least another 15 hours to go)

Unless of course you actually just enjoy the sensation of flight (or sailing) this type of thing will lead to discontent and eventually dropping the activity. I'm not sure how much of this is to do with the smartness of the clubhouse or aircraft - although who wouldn't prefer to fly a newer well turned out aircraft? More to the point of the thread would punters, in sufficient numbers, be willing to part with the additional ackers that such a club/school require? I'm not sure that they would.

What would I want? Aircraft availability.

I know, you're all going to say 'buy a share', but that can only be justified if the hours match the cost. Someone speculated somewhere that the break-even is around 50 hours per annum: less than that, then rent. I probably fall into that category, thus I'm a renter. Who from? Currently from the school I got my PPL through (particularly as I'm very low hours). But even if I get a couple of hundred hours under my belt in the next few years, I'll still probably be renting - and I only know of schools who rent out.

Am I wrong here? I need to visit another airfield to get a feel of what is available (Blackbusche, Popham both come to mind, as they're both within catchment distance)

As a renter now, I get pushed to the bottom of the pile, as the school obviously makes a better deal with students, and I'm already beginning to battle to get air time (ignoring the awful weather at the moment). Is this why there is such a huge dropout rate? No aircraft to fly in!

I'll crawl back in now....

Ace Rimmer

I think the lack of motivation you describe (all too common) is a consequence of the type of people who are being attracted to GA at present.

Most of those who turn up to do a PPL are doing it as a personal challenge and they don't have much money, so after the PPL the challenge is gone and most of them pack it in. Quite a few teenagers are spending a birthday/xmas present and nearly all of those will drop out too.

On top of that, the PPL nav syllabus is really basic and anyone with enough intelligence to do the PPL exams will realise (usually quietly, manifested by lack of confidence) how hard it is going to be to fly long routes. But it is the longer routes which involve seeing places you can't easily drive to, plus utility like business trips, which keep people flying long-term.

They will also realise most of the planes on offer are junk, which most of their friends won't be seen dead in.

In fact I am sure that the reason the PPL syllabus is the way it is (WW2 navigation and the stupid circular slide rule are just 2 examples) is because most PPLs drop out quickly. Presently only a few % of PPLs are still flying after a few years. If that figure went up to say 25% (is that so hard to do??) there would be real pressure to modernise things. If you doubt this, ask yourself what would happen if you got 100 fresh PPLs to fly a 200nm x/c route in 5km vis; how many would get there, perhaps even alive? If driver training was this bad, there would be real pressure to change it because there would be so many new-driver deaths.

The whole PPL training system manages to hang in there BECAUSE MOST PACK IT IN ANYWAY.

If one attracted higher quality customers who can easily afford it, and there were decent planes to fly afterwards, one would not have the ridiculous dropout rate. Flying itself is a damn good hobby for modern people, especially if you get an IMC Rating.

Nothing in market research is going be a certainty but I've come across enough well-off people who would learn if the scene was not decrepit as it is.

So I think one could set up a successful upmarket flying school/club, in the right location.

Nothing will happen nationally, because the moment anyone mentions modernisation they get jumped on by the very large crowd of antique aircraft owners, the crowd of people who operate knackered C150s on pennies, the microlight crowd - they are all afraid of being priced out of their hobby. In reality these people (unless they fly from their own freehold farm strip on which they drive the lawn mower) are being subsidised by the PPL trainee punter who dumps £500 in landing/T&G fees at the airfield, another £6000 at the school, and then conveniently vanishes.

One has to visit a few of the CAA-run safety meetings and similar events to see just how hopeless the national situation is, and how little pressure there is from both the bottom and from the top to change anything.

Any suggestion re modernisation is jumped on by the ageing traditionalists who dominate these things. Just mention GPS in one of these meetings and see the response. It's like walking into a catholic church and shout out that virgin mary got pregnant by sleeping around. I suspect they dominate the CAA GA department too, despite the publicity that all of them "have a PPL".

I've said enough :O

I saw some figures a while ago that showed that the average PPL will do less than 50hrs post licence issue. That is appalling. One of the main reasons is that after passing the test, most PPL's are either skint or have nothing to do since the vast majority of clubs don't understand that people need a reason to go flying and to do something interesting.

Flyouts are the minimum a club should organise, once a month go somewhere fun for the weekend, instructors would love it as they would do something different and there would be a reason for people to spend all that cash.
It must be very hard to justify spending hundreds of pounds at a time for what is essentially an individual past time. There must be alot of pressure on the 'home front' for many people.

With respect to newer a/c, when we got a couple of brand new machines a couple of years ago, we started to see a strange effect. The average hours flown to get a licence started to drop. Eventually we discovered that it may have to do with people feeling more comfortable in a newer machine. They weren't as nervous and therefore had more capacity for learning. I estimate that this actually offsets the slightly additional hourly cost. This is not something you can measure, butafter sitting next to people for a couple of thousand hours, you realise small things can make a big difference.

What do people consider to be the catchment area for a school, how far would you be prepared to travel? I reckon about an hour/50 miles maximum does this sound about right?

Ok, so let's set up a hypothetical school.

Our school will have 10 aircraft. 6 of these are old, knackered C172s. They have everything which is needed to pass a PPL and fly to PPL standards. They are well maintained, and safe, but if the ADF starts playing up we won't bother fixing it.

We also have 4 modern aircraft, let's say DA40s since they've been mentioned a few times. The DA40s are fully airways equipped, have dual GPS, two-axis auto-pilot, dual VOR/ADF with RMI and HSI.

Now, we'll offer four courses:

- Option 1: Basic PPL. Minimum time, 45 hours. Price, £85/hr. All flying is on the C172.

- Option 2: DA40 PPL. Minimum time, 45 hours. Price, £115/hr. All flying is on the DA40.

- Option 3: DA40 PPL+. Minimum time, 55 hours. Price, £115.hr. All flying is on the DA40. After this course, you will have a PPL. Although you won't have any more qualifications than for the basic course, you will have had additional training in "real life" navigation, including some longer cross-countries, possibly cross-channel (depending where the school is located), how to use the GPS and the auto-pilot constructively.

- Option 4: C172/DA40 PPL+. Minimum time, 55 hours, of which at least 10 will be on the DA40, learning to use the GPS, auto-pilot, RMI, HSI and so on, but the basic PPL syllabus will be taught on the C172. Price is £85/hr for the C172, £115/hr for the DA40.

Which course do you think will get the most bookings? Do you think that students would switch from one course to another as their knowledge and understanding of flying increases? (Let's not complicate things by introducing an IMC rating just yet.)

FFF
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I agree the correlation between sailing and flying is not exact but it is there.

Sailing is a team sport? Yes and no. Racing is a team sport. Cruising is usually man and wife. Sometimes kids if there are any, the occasional friends.

Sailing is one bod ripping up the £50s with the rest getting it free? Agreed - and this applies to racing as well as cruising. But when you last took a friend up flying as a passenger, did they pay?

People spend more money on boats than planes? Doubt it. You'll pick up a first cruiser - say a 2nd hand 30ft Beneteau cruiser for about £30-£40k. About the same as your first spamcan probably. And you'll spend more on maintaining the spamcan. What they really spend money on is the clothes from Cowes High Street but flyers can do that too!

I bought a boat to sail around on myself (weekends or day trips only) and have it as something fun to do with friends. The joy of cruising sailing is that it is a fun way to get somewhere. The reality is that it takes too long to get to the boat, too long to set up, too long to get anywhere in it so you miss the pub when you get there. Its an all day task and you eventually get cold even on a sunny day. Your crew (and the skipper for that matter) usually get bored after a while. Crews are harder to find that you'd think, even for racers. That's why the boats sit around in the marinas all the time.

Because what crews and skippers really want is a means of travel that is fun in itself but gets them where they want to be. Something with a maximum period of involvement of 2 or 3 hours (pub time doesn't count). Something they can do of an afternoon and still be home in time to go out in the evening. Flying gives you that.

Anyway, the point I was really trying to make is that there are lessons to be learnt from sailing. Flying schools don't need to buy their own planes - offer an ownership scheme like sunsail and the punters will buy them for you. I've never really understood why clubs don't take more of a financial interest in the private share aircraft that inhabit their fields; that's a massive market segment they are not involved in. Marinas have ramped up prices and people still pay. The learn to sail business does well because it is well organised. There is a well developed rental scene with decent boats. The sailing holiday business is huge; where are the adverts for flying holidays?

It will end up being the DA40's only. At my club despite the fact there is a difference of £18/hr between the new machines and the old cessnas, most people learning are on the new machines. The Cessnas are really only used for ppl hire, usually by PPL's who've held licences for years.

New machines 7-800 Hrs per year (Virtually all training).
Cessna's 3-400 Hrs per year (Virtually all Self fly hire).

One of the reasons more people don't fly the newer machines for SFH is that they cannot book them unless they try at least a month ahead. Every slot is filled in these, whereas in the Cessnas you could get a slot any day of the week you fancy.

SAS

The “home front” pressure one can’t do much about. Sadly, this is an activity mainly for those who have a decent income and who have control of what it gets spent on. Unless you get a spouse who also likes flying; rare but possible… With a family, one needs a really big income, say £60k+, to be flying reasonably frequently – unless again you have a very supportive wife who shares the hobby rather than insisting that she spends an equivalent amount on something for herself :O

I would regard 30 mins (say 20 miles) as the absolute max to drive.

FFF

Forget all old planes. They will do the business no good at all. Yes they are adequate for PPL training but they are not acceptable to a quality customer.

As we have now discarded the spamcans :O that leaves Options 2 and 3 only. Actually the price is pretty good; I used to pay £120/hr inc VAT for a really knackered PA28-181 self fly hire with no working nav instruments.

Why not the IMC Rating? It’s essential for serious UK touring. If you don’t have it, there are likely to be periods of 2-3 months in the winter when you won’t fly. Even in the summer it is often IMC-like, with haze and no horizon to speak of.

Air Far

I think a school selling shares in its fleet would be a great scheme. That way, when it has sold off a complete plane, in say 10 shares, it can buy a brand new one for little money.

Are you lot seriously suggesting that the way forward for GA in this country is to kick out the plebs and make it a playground for the higher-rate taxpayer to pose in a DA40?!? :rolleyes:

I'm lucky enough to earn enough to still be able to fly in your world, but I fly an old taildragger out of choice. It is a joy to fly, has 100 times the character of a spamcan and offers unbeatable value for money. I'm obviously not a quality customer though :rolleyes:

No definately not. But it seems to me that we need a push to allow more moneyed types to get into this with terms they are willing to accept.

For the business model I'm thinking about, then people with lots of cash are going to be important, but I don't see how this can be bad for the industry as a whole. If people are prepared to pay more for better machines, then existing operators will have to buck up their ideas or drop their prices even more to compete. This can be nothing but good for the punter.

How much would a DA40 cost to run per Hr? With the diesels I would assume that it would be very reasonable (in a relative sense obviously!)

Why are the "plebs" (I'm definately one of them!) still flying expensive club a/c anyway? Get into the PFA side. Lots of fun and a damn sight cheaper. I've got a lot of time for the PFA and people who fly those sort of machines, they seem to be to be real enthusiasts of GA flying. Give me a cub and a short field and I'm happy for ages!

Evo

Nobody is saying one should kick out the taildraggers etc.

However in activities in our lives there is a cross subsidy. Let's say you have a 1920 Bugatti which you have restored, and take it out for a drive on some sunny Sundays each year. In the tax on the fuel you use, you are not paying your fair share of what it cost to build and maintain the road. You are getting subsidised by the frequent users. This subsidy is hidden in the public finance system, but that's not so in GA.

Everybody who wants to fly antique types, and old decrepit types, should be allowed to do so (even looking at it purely economically, there is no harm in it) but the ENTIRE scene is going to sink, probably within 20 years, unless there is a very big revival, with a lot of new machines and new attitudes, to match the higher expectations of present day people relative to the people of say 1970.

But as I have mentioned, I don't think this is going to happen because of the entrenched attitudes throughout GA. No individual and no business in GA can bring it about, either.

What IS possible, I think, is what we are talking about here: to make a success of a flying school/club which is aimed squarely at discerning and well funded customers (and well funded customers are usually discerning).

Fascinating thread to which I can make no constructive contribution, except to say that having had three trial lessons at three different establishments I went for the one where I felt the chemistry between me and my prospective flying instructor was right – ignoring available aircraft, travelling time, price and the rest. In the event I did not regret my decision despite having opted for the most expensive establishment.

As for FFF’s option 3 and/or 4 I think I might perhaps include a Night qualification, just to keep the interest alive.

I am sorry to say that equating quality people with well-off people makes me wince, but that’s just me and never mind. Interesting contributions all round.

Pianorak, that is exactly the sort of contribution that is important. Everybody should be able to have a say and an opinion, whether people agree is a different matterbut that's the beauty of Pprune.

That chemistry is I feel probably the most important aspect of any school. No matter how cheap or good the a/c why would you go somewhere unfriendly that treats you like cr*p?

I'm not happy about equating money with how 'good' a person is. I know plenty of rich t*ssers and loads of top skint people. But in a business sense the richer they are, the better they are for your profits if you ca attract them and keep them.

I remeber reading somewhere about a certain well known supermarket that to attract new customers cost them about 5X what keeping an existing customer costs, so flying schools are really quite daft if they let PPL's go after they get a licence, from a purely financial perspective, look after your customers, they ARE your business.

Pianorak

Don't take it personally, it's purely business terminology :O

A "quality customer" is simply one who buys the product/service, pays on time, does not complain, and perhaps becomes a loyal customer in the long term.

It is nothing to do with someone's character. You can have a very good customer who is a real s**t personally.

The reality is that nowadays lots of people have lots of money. I don't think this fact has sunk in yet in the UK because anyone with money and some brains keeps their head low, and those with money and no brains might exhibit some unattractive traits :O

The average male salary, c. £20k, would probably make you jump. Most people hanging around GA earn well below the UK average salary.

Another 2p worth

The punters are going to find better chemistry with an instructor who is earning a decent wage, working at a decent school, flying decent planes and who is generally content with his/her lot than one who is working out from a portakabin outfit where margins are so tight that cost drives all decisions.

And no-one has suggested kicking anyone out, (whether poor pleb, rich tosser, top bloke, total ****!). I think all the suggestions have been aimed at expanding the numbers, expanding the market. That benefits everyone.