Thimk I might patent a cloud machine to avoid the possibility of a night encounter with VMC! :bored:

Aussie Andy

Your post, I regret, is totally irrelevant to the original post.

"VFR-on-Top" is a very specific terminology in the USA (from where you reference comes). It is indeed an IFR clearance. However, the US also has a concept of VFR "over the top", which is what we are really debating here.

In the UK and elsewhere, we don't make the same distinction, and VFR-on-top is a generic term for flight above a broken or overcast layer.

As many have said elsewhere on this thread, such a flight is still in compliance with VFR in the UK. However, the basic PPL contains a restriction preventing flight "out of sight of the surface".

So... being on top of a covered layer can still be VFR providing that you comply with cloud separation requirements. However, it may be outside the privileges of a basic PPL, unless he has either an IR or an IMC rating.


2D

2Donkeys Yes I know - my post obviously related to the US VFR on top and was only related to IFR. I don't think it is irrelevant to point out the source of the US definition (which was otheriwse causing confusion) - anyway have removed it, so :ooh:

Yes, but you don't fly VMC - you are or are not in VMC. What you fly is either VFR or IFR, and at night you can only fly IFR, even if you may in fact be in VMC. It is a dangerous mistake to think that because you are clear of cloud and in sight of the surface you can fly VFR at night, which you cannot (except Special VFR if cleared to do so by ATC). This means that you must observe the quadrantial and height rules for IFR when flying at night - always.

Quote:

It is a dangerous mistake to think that because you are clear of cloud and in sight of the surface you can fly VFR at night, which you cannot


True but you can fly IFR under these conditions, so log as you remain below 3000' and can comply with Rule 5.

Actually height IS limiting. Glide clear is still relevant. But the 1000ft above the highest object within 5 miles of track is the controlling factor.

I am not sure why the argument still persisist on this. Flight at night is conducted under Instrument Flight Rules whether or not the visability is VMC. If your PPL privledges do not allow you to fly out of site of the surface then you MUST maintain VMC in sight of the surface while flying under Instrument Flight RULES.

There is no such thing as Visual Flight Rules at night, the only exception to this is SPECIAL Visual Flight Rules Clearance through a zone.

How confusing !

So how do you define IFR and VFR? My understanding of IFR in the UK, assuming not on an IFR flight plan, is the quadrantal rule above 3000'. So what about below 3000', how do you define IFR? According to the ANO ALL PPLs can fly IFR outside CAS, so long as you remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface, which might as well be VFR.

So what happens if you have an IMC rating, do you also need a Night Qualification?

EA

Quote:

But the 1000ft above the highest object within 5 miles of track is the controlling factor.


At or below 3000' it is not. As I said earlier, flight at or below 3000' clear of cloud and in sight of the surface complies with the IFR. Agree with the glide clear requirement as that is part of Rule 5.

Its all in Rule 29. This should answer ea's query about definition of IFR. The important point is that although 'clear of cloud, in sight of the surface, at or below 3000'' looks superficially the same for both IFR and VFR, there is no visibility minima for IFR.

IFR requires 1000ft above the highest object belowe 3000ft and appropriate flight levels above 3000ft.

Glide clear applies whatever rules you are flying under.

You are confusing the IFR and VFR flight rules!

bose-x

I am perfectly clear about the differences between the VFR and the IFR.


Rule 29

Without prejudice to the provisions of Rule 5, in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules an aircraft shall not fly at a height of less than 1000 feet above the highest obstacle within a distance of 5 nautical miles of the aircraft unless

(a) It is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;

(b) the aircraft is flying on a route notified for the puposes of this rule:

(c) the aircraft has been otherwise authorised by the competent authority;

(d) the aircraft is flying at an altitude not exceeding 3000 feet above mean sea level and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface


(Edited for typo)

Wcollins

Understood, but that’s true only for a >2000kg MTOW plane on an IFR flight plan isn’t it?

If you choose to go “IFR” for a bit here and there, in or out of CAS, in a Seneca/Aztec, will they bill you for that?

Will an implicit airborne-filed flight plan (which is what I believe in effect happens when entering Class D IFR) trigger an invoice?

Bookworm

Where did you find “National Differences from ICAO” ? This sounds very interesting.