Pathetic aftermath of PFA rally (Good News!)
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Pathetic aftermath of good PFA rally
Fully agree with the compliments on the main PFA thread about the controller at the rally. Everyone I've spoken to thougth he did a thoroughly professional job the whole weekend.
But one person didn't agree with the general consensus.
I heard at Kemble yesterday one of the PFA Ops people got over-excited because the controller permitted the Extras team to do part of their routine when they returned to Kemble on Saturday evening. Those of us who were still there at about 7.15 saw a superb short display by very experienced aerobatic pilots. Too short but it was an unexpected bonus and free so who's complaining.
When they landed, Mr X accused them of dangerous flying
and wouldn't believe them when they said they had permission. He marched them off to the controller who confirmed the pilots were telling the truth and they hadn't done anything wrong.
Instead of just apologising and backing down, he got all moody because the controller hadn't consulted him first, threw his toys out of the pram and walked off the job saying he couldn't work with someone so unprofessional!
If the controller's a Pruner - Well done, Sir. Everyone else thought you did a superb job all weekend.
Dangerous? The mini display was safe and professionally executed, as you'd expect from an ex-Red Arrow synchro pair leader and a retired Group Captain.
Funny how there always has to be one ass-hole.
What a pompous dick-head!
But one person didn't agree with the general consensus.
I heard at Kemble yesterday one of the PFA Ops people got over-excited because the controller permitted the Extras team to do part of their routine when they returned to Kemble on Saturday evening. Those of us who were still there at about 7.15 saw a superb short display by very experienced aerobatic pilots. Too short but it was an unexpected bonus and free so who's complaining.
When they landed, Mr X accused them of dangerous flying
and wouldn't believe them when they said they had permission. He marched them off to the controller who confirmed the pilots were telling the truth and they hadn't done anything wrong. Instead of just apologising and backing down, he got all moody because the controller hadn't consulted him first, threw his toys out of the pram and walked off the job saying he couldn't work with someone so unprofessional!
If the controller's a Pruner - Well done, Sir. Everyone else thought you did a superb job all weekend.
Dangerous? The mini display was safe and professionally executed, as you'd expect from an ex-Red Arrow synchro pair leader and a retired Group Captain.
Funny how there always has to be one ass-hole.
What a pompous dick-head!
Last edited by Alty Meter; 15th Aug 2003 at 02:43.
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I don't know if there's an end result.
I left something out of my last post because I don't know for sure if this part's true but on the understanding it may be a false rumour, I was told at work yesterday that Mr X rang up the CAA on the following Monday morning and tried to get the pilots prosecuted for dangerous flying. The CAA investigation people
couldn't see the problem as the pilots had DA's, Kemble's got rule 5 exemption and the controller gave permission.
Allegedly Mr X wouldn't leave it at that and started phoning other CAA departments and people he knows in the CAA to try get them prosecuted.
My F/O wouldn't tell me where he got all that from. He said it was 100% but I can't vouch for it myself.
I'm a bit dubious because Mr X is a pilot and I just can't see anyone being that nasty, but I don't know the man so perhaps he is?
Anyone else heard anything?
I left something out of my last post because I don't know for sure if this part's true but on the understanding it may be a false rumour, I was told at work yesterday that Mr X rang up the CAA on the following Monday morning and tried to get the pilots prosecuted for dangerous flying. The CAA investigation people
couldn't see the problem as the pilots had DA's, Kemble's got rule 5 exemption and the controller gave permission.
Allegedly Mr X wouldn't leave it at that and started phoning other CAA departments and people he knows in the CAA to try get them prosecuted.
My F/O wouldn't tell me where he got all that from. He said it was 100% but I can't vouch for it myself.
I'm a bit dubious because Mr X is a pilot and I just can't see anyone being that nasty, but I don't know the man so perhaps he is?
Anyone else heard anything?
Last edited by Alty Meter; 16th Aug 2003 at 19:46.
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I know one of the controllers who was working at the rally (there are several in the team) and he is one of the best that you will find anywhere. I am fairly certain that he is also a PPRuNer.
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PFA Rally fiaso
Personally I wasn't there for that event but I know of the so called "Dangerous Flyers" and feel that this is ludicrous considering the wealth of flying experience and flying hours that they have between them - they both have taught many pilots in the RAF and in the civilian world and their knowledge and professionalism has been passed down the line to many of the current aviators that are on this forum. Their aerobatic skills and fast jet experience are second to none and they both have performed their aviation skills in front of, what must now be, millions of people with a clean safety record. Kemble's controllers are also excellent and professional and they watch these two professionals fly nearly every day. They know their limits but I have no doubt that they knew how safe these display pilots are. Should this case got further, after investigation, I feel that it is a mockery of the CAA over one person throwing his toys out of the cot. Both the pilot's did have DAs and if they are taken away it will be a very sad loss to the aviation world.
I believe the investigation is on going and believe that it is a complete waste of their time although I understand that these things have to be done if an official complaint is made. For the 2 pilots - keep your heads high and be proud that so many people are behind you and look forward to watching you fly your fantastic displays soon.
As for "The Compaliner" - if you were half the man that these 2 professionals are you would waken up, withdraw your complaint and get all this bad feeling away from PROFESSIONAL aviation. You may well know people in the CAA but far more people now know you for another reason and not that of professionalism.
I believe the investigation is on going and believe that it is a complete waste of their time although I understand that these things have to be done if an official complaint is made. For the 2 pilots - keep your heads high and be proud that so many people are behind you and look forward to watching you fly your fantastic displays soon.
As for "The Compaliner" - if you were half the man that these 2 professionals are you would waken up, withdraw your complaint and get all this bad feeling away from PROFESSIONAL aviation. You may well know people in the CAA but far more people now know you for another reason and not that of professionalism.
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I'm afraid it is true.
Both pilots are now under investigation by the CAA as a result of a complaint by a Mr Moody.
So that this does not reflect badly on the PFA, it should be pointed out that Mr Moody (an Easyjet Captain) decided to make a complaint against the pilots for his own motives, not as a representative of the PFA.
Heliport
Both pilots are now under investigation by the CAA as a result of a complaint by a Mr Moody.
So that this does not reflect badly on the PFA, it should be pointed out that Mr Moody (an Easyjet Captain) decided to make a complaint against the pilots for his own motives, not as a representative of the PFA.
Heliport
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How do we write to to complain about the speed of his taxiing at LTN then...?
How thoroughly pathetic - it's hard enough to keep aviation in the good press without being shafted from within...
Weren't the CAA on site? Thought that they usually were for all big events like this - they were at Silverstone - I guess if someone makes a complaint it has to be investigated though.
How thoroughly pathetic - it's hard enough to keep aviation in the good press without being shafted from within...
Weren't the CAA on site? Thought that they usually were for all big events like this - they were at Silverstone - I guess if someone makes a complaint it has to be investigated though.
Not too impressed with the way the (ex?) PFA representative handled this. I suspect CAA enforcement branch were only involved in an effort to save face having had no back up from ATC when he tried to bo11ock the pilots.
The person in question HAS put a lot of work into many PFA rallies and I don't think that such a personal attack is appropriate on this forum.
The person in question HAS put a lot of work into many PFA rallies and I don't think that such a personal attack is appropriate on this forum.
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I wasn't there at the time so I can't comment on this alleged incident.
Rule 70 says
One assumes that the comments above come from those who have read CAP 393 and are happy that the rules were complied with.
If the PFA were resonsible for safety at the event it might not be unreasonable for them to object if they thought the rules were broken. Perhaps it would be best to await the result of the investigation. If no rules were broken, there should be no problem.
Mike
Rule 70 says
(2) (a) The commander of an aircraft intending to participate in a flying display shall take
all reasonable steps to satisfy himself before he participates that:
(i) the flying display director has been granted an appropriate permission
under paragraph (4);
all reasonable steps to satisfy himself before he participates that:
(i) the flying display director has been granted an appropriate permission
under paragraph (4);
‘Flying display’ means any flying activity deliberately performed for the purpose of
providing an exhibition or entertainment at an advertised event open to the public;
providing an exhibition or entertainment at an advertised event open to the public;
If the PFA were resonsible for safety at the event it might not be unreasonable for them to object if they thought the rules were broken. Perhaps it would be best to await the result of the investigation. If no rules were broken, there should be no problem.
Mike
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Dan D
You're probably right about the 'face saving' but the reason Moody got "no back up from ATC when he tried to bo11ock the pilots" is no-one else thought the pilots had done anything wrong or dangerous as he alleged. But Moody wouldn't let it drop at that.
The version I heard, from a totally reliable and well-informed source, is the same as posted by Alty Meter.
Moody's next attempt to cause trouble for the pilots was to report them to CAA Enforcement but they didn't think the pilots had done anything wrong.
But Moody still wasn't content to let it drop. He'd failed with the PFA controllers and failed with CAA Enforcement, so he tried another approach.
He rang up someone in SRG and it was third time lucky - for him anyway. Some desk-pusher in SRG took up the cause and passed it back to Enforcement for an investigation.
Those are the facts. It wouldn't be right for me as a Mod to express a personal opinion. People can judge for themselves whether they think Moody's behaviour was perfectly reasonable, or petty, nasty and vindictive trying to save face regardless of the consequences to fellow pilots.
Mike C
The Rally had finished for the day. The 'incident' happened when the pilots recovered to Kemble (their home base) at just before 7.30pm.
The PFA didn't complain - Moody took it himself to do so.
"If no rules were broken, there should be no problem."
Some people might not agree with that proposition. Suppose it depends what view you take of one pilot causing trouble for another pilot.
You're probably right about the 'face saving' but the reason Moody got "no back up from ATC when he tried to bo11ock the pilots" is no-one else thought the pilots had done anything wrong or dangerous as he alleged. But Moody wouldn't let it drop at that.
The version I heard, from a totally reliable and well-informed source, is the same as posted by Alty Meter.
Moody's next attempt to cause trouble for the pilots was to report them to CAA Enforcement but they didn't think the pilots had done anything wrong.
But Moody still wasn't content to let it drop. He'd failed with the PFA controllers and failed with CAA Enforcement, so he tried another approach.
He rang up someone in SRG and it was third time lucky - for him anyway. Some desk-pusher in SRG took up the cause and passed it back to Enforcement for an investigation.
Those are the facts. It wouldn't be right for me as a Mod to express a personal opinion. People can judge for themselves whether they think Moody's behaviour was perfectly reasonable, or petty, nasty and vindictive trying to save face regardless of the consequences to fellow pilots.
Mike C
The Rally had finished for the day. The 'incident' happened when the pilots recovered to Kemble (their home base) at just before 7.30pm.
The PFA didn't complain - Moody took it himself to do so.
"If no rules were broken, there should be no problem."
Some people might not agree with that proposition. Suppose it depends what view you take of one pilot causing trouble for another pilot.
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Heliport
As I said, I wasn't there at the time. I certainly don't have enough facts to make a judgement.
I can see a number of difficulties for anyone wanting to bring a case against the pilots, not least your point that the event was closed to the public at the time.
Another good defence would be that they were honing their skills with the permission of the ATZ controlling authority (I don't think it was ATC at that time?) and not putting on a display for the public.
My concern was more at the personally abusive nature of some of the posts. The public abuse of an identifiable individual by someone who hides his or her own identity is not pleasant.
Mike
As I said, I wasn't there at the time. I certainly don't have enough facts to make a judgement.
I can see a number of difficulties for anyone wanting to bring a case against the pilots, not least your point that the event was closed to the public at the time.
Another good defence would be that they were honing their skills with the permission of the ATZ controlling authority (I don't think it was ATC at that time?) and not putting on a display for the public.
My concern was more at the personally abusive nature of some of the posts. The public abuse of an identifiable individual by someone who hides his or her own identity is not pleasant.
Mike
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Just to play devil's advocate here - and by the way, I was there.........
The Rally had not finished for the day - I seem to remember the AIC notified the Rally TRA as being active until 2000hrs and the impromptu display certainly occurred way before this. There were other aircraft arriving and departing immediately before the Extras did their thing.
Did the AIC make allowance for arrivals such as that performed by the Extras? I can't remember reading it in there that you could carry out a display on arrival if you wished to.
Beig such highly experienced and skilled 'professional' aviators I'm sure the pilots involved had copies of the AIC with them as stated as a requirement in the AIC for any arrival at Kemble during the Rally - especially as the TRA was still in force at the time.
Oh, and what if a non-radio aircraft was arriving at the same time in total compliance with the AIC?
Just a thought or two.......
The Rally had not finished for the day - I seem to remember the AIC notified the Rally TRA as being active until 2000hrs and the impromptu display certainly occurred way before this. There were other aircraft arriving and departing immediately before the Extras did their thing.
Did the AIC make allowance for arrivals such as that performed by the Extras? I can't remember reading it in there that you could carry out a display on arrival if you wished to.
Beig such highly experienced and skilled 'professional' aviators I'm sure the pilots involved had copies of the AIC with them as stated as a requirement in the AIC for any arrival at Kemble during the Rally - especially as the TRA was still in force at the time.
Oh, and what if a non-radio aircraft was arriving at the same time in total compliance with the AIC?
Just a thought or two.......
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So that we, the GA community can treat Mr Moody in the way he deserves should we encounter him, tell us his name, after all the victims have effectivley been named here.
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I have to say I have more sympathy with smarthawkes view than many of the others.
I have been on the receiving end of a display given by a hugely experienced blah blah blah. He turned up at a fly-in and thrilled us all - and the neighbourhood with his skills (and diesel smoke!).
The end result was he created a firestorm with the locals that almost closed the strip. And throughout that entire process of appeasing the neighbours and the local paper all we got in terms of support was how incredibly skilled he was, how lucky we were to have him turn up.
A promise to report the entire incident to the CAA at least brought a promise he ould never darken our doors again.
Obviously this incident had none of that potential. But it does smack of the same lack of thought and consideration. This is the busiest piece of sky in Europe on that weekend, I'm sure it was much quieter about then - but if these guys are so professional, so egoless why did they bust the rules?
It's just the same as the 'run and break' boys - the rules, are for other people.
Let's see what the CAA investigation comes to.
I have been on the receiving end of a display given by a hugely experienced blah blah blah. He turned up at a fly-in and thrilled us all - and the neighbourhood with his skills (and diesel smoke!).
The end result was he created a firestorm with the locals that almost closed the strip. And throughout that entire process of appeasing the neighbours and the local paper all we got in terms of support was how incredibly skilled he was, how lucky we were to have him turn up.
A promise to report the entire incident to the CAA at least brought a promise he ould never darken our doors again.
Obviously this incident had none of that potential. But it does smack of the same lack of thought and consideration. This is the busiest piece of sky in Europe on that weekend, I'm sure it was much quieter about then - but if these guys are so professional, so egoless why did they bust the rules?
It's just the same as the 'run and break' boys - the rules, are for other people.
Let's see what the CAA investigation comes to.
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smartarse
If you knew anything about the pilots concerned maybe you wouldn't be so sarcastic about " highly experienced and skilled 'professional' aviators".
One of them flew with us for a short time when he first came out of the RAF and he is highly experienced, skilled and professional. He moved on and got a command in a very short time with another airline. Maybe someone who's CV includes Squadron Leader, the RAF Jaguar display pilot, and leader of the synchro pair in the Red Arrows doesn't qualify for the description of highly experienced, skilled and professional in your eyes?
I've never met the other one but my ex-RAF colleagues say he
had a distinguished RAF career, flew virtually every type the RAF operated in his career and when he retired a few years ago as Group Captain was still an active pilot despite his high rank.
Maybe he doesn't deserve the description either.
gasax
You've got a chip on your shoulder about military pilots "egos" that you made very clear on another thread so no surprise you agree with smartiepants. So they 'bust the rules' did they? Who says?
And a big difference between what you describe and what happened here is your people warned the pilot, they didn't go running off to the CAA which is what that Moody did.
You've both missed a fewpoints in your rush to criticise. Try reading the thread again from the top.
The two pilots didn't just fly in and do a beat-up. They did a practice at their home airfield when they got back to base and had permission from the PFA controller to do it.
The PFA didn't complain. One man who didn't get his own way kept going until he did.
AND despite what you two seem to think, irresponsible cowboys soon get spotted in professional aviation and they don't achieve half of what those two have achieved in their careers. BTW, I'm not ex-military.
In my book, the result of the investigation is irrelevent. It won't change what Mr Moody did which was childish and despicable. Git!
If you knew anything about the pilots concerned maybe you wouldn't be so sarcastic about " highly experienced and skilled 'professional' aviators".
One of them flew with us for a short time when he first came out of the RAF and he is highly experienced, skilled and professional. He moved on and got a command in a very short time with another airline. Maybe someone who's CV includes Squadron Leader, the RAF Jaguar display pilot, and leader of the synchro pair in the Red Arrows doesn't qualify for the description of highly experienced, skilled and professional in your eyes?
I've never met the other one but my ex-RAF colleagues say he
had a distinguished RAF career, flew virtually every type the RAF operated in his career and when he retired a few years ago as Group Captain was still an active pilot despite his high rank.
Maybe he doesn't deserve the description either.
gasax
You've got a chip on your shoulder about military pilots "egos" that you made very clear on another thread so no surprise you agree with smartiepants. So they 'bust the rules' did they? Who says?
And a big difference between what you describe and what happened here is your people warned the pilot, they didn't go running off to the CAA which is what that Moody did.
You've both missed a fewpoints in your rush to criticise. Try reading the thread again from the top.
The two pilots didn't just fly in and do a beat-up. They did a practice at their home airfield when they got back to base and had permission from the PFA controller to do it.
The PFA didn't complain. One man who didn't get his own way kept going until he did.
AND despite what you two seem to think, irresponsible cowboys soon get spotted in professional aviation and they don't achieve half of what those two have achieved in their careers. BTW, I'm not ex-military.
In my book, the result of the investigation is irrelevent. It won't change what Mr Moody did which was childish and despicable. Git!