Declaring an emergency
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
bookworm
Yes you may well be right though I would perhaps differ as to the degree. The JAA PPL has been out for about 3 years. Anyone who learnt to fly for a real purpose would have done the PPL and went on to an IMCR or IR ASAP; it was obvious to me within a few weeks of starting the PPL training that a PPL alone is nearly useless for flying for any purpose (due to weather). I don't think that many "sunny day only" pilots will go for an IR.
But regardless of the interpretation, the IR % is still very low compared to the USA.
Regarding the later posts here, I disagree that an IMCR pilot should call a PAN upon inadvertent entry into IMC. Your training, if current, is more than adequate for flight in IMC, of any duration (subject to fatigue, presence of an autopilot) and an IAP at the far end. If you haven't flown for 23 months and 29 days and can't handle it, that's a completely different story and nothing whatsoever to do with the IMCR. You could be an ATPL; it would make no difference.
Yes you may well be right though I would perhaps differ as to the degree. The JAA PPL has been out for about 3 years. Anyone who learnt to fly for a real purpose would have done the PPL and went on to an IMCR or IR ASAP; it was obvious to me within a few weeks of starting the PPL training that a PPL alone is nearly useless for flying for any purpose (due to weather). I don't think that many "sunny day only" pilots will go for an IR.
But regardless of the interpretation, the IR % is still very low compared to the USA.
Regarding the later posts here, I disagree that an IMCR pilot should call a PAN upon inadvertent entry into IMC. Your training, if current, is more than adequate for flight in IMC, of any duration (subject to fatigue, presence of an autopilot) and an IAP at the far end. If you haven't flown for 23 months and 29 days and can't handle it, that's a completely different story and nothing whatsoever to do with the IMCR. You could be an ATPL; it would make no difference.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
I disagree that an IMCR pilot should call a PAN upon inadvertent entry into IMC
FFF
-------------
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
OK, let me take this one step at a time.
A pilot qualified to fly in IMC (which is the IMCR or the IR; the difference between the two is less than perfectly plausible differences in pilot currency) enters IMC accidentally, and knows that he is below the MSA.
He should know enough about where he is to know which way to turn and climb, perhaps? In which case a PAN would be right if he's going to bust some airspace, or the field has an IAP and there might be instrument training going on.
How can anyone on the ground help him, if he's close enough to the terrain to think a straight ahead climb is not safe? Only an existing radar service would be of help in the available time. And if he is far enough away from hills etc he can just climb up, surely?
I am trying to get away from knocking the IMC Rating. It's nothing to do with it. A 25,000 hour ATPL, finding himself in IMC below the MSA and unsure of which way to go, will be in the same position.
One should NEVER fly below the MSA, VMC or IMC, unless taking off or landing. I suppose one could "discover" a cloud on a long final in a "few at 600ft" scenario .. but then climbing straight ahead should be OK; how many airfields around the UK have a 600ft hill at the far end of the runway, on the runway heading?
If I was totally lost after some prank like that, I would spend my brain capacity in such a dire emergency on getting out of it, getting some orientation sorted out, not making radio calls. Autopilot (if you have one) on immediately, a rapid climb, GPS and the chart.
Sorry if I am missing something here...
A pilot qualified to fly in IMC (which is the IMCR or the IR; the difference between the two is less than perfectly plausible differences in pilot currency) enters IMC accidentally, and knows that he is below the MSA.
He should know enough about where he is to know which way to turn and climb, perhaps? In which case a PAN would be right if he's going to bust some airspace, or the field has an IAP and there might be instrument training going on.
How can anyone on the ground help him, if he's close enough to the terrain to think a straight ahead climb is not safe? Only an existing radar service would be of help in the available time. And if he is far enough away from hills etc he can just climb up, surely?
I am trying to get away from knocking the IMC Rating. It's nothing to do with it. A 25,000 hour ATPL, finding himself in IMC below the MSA and unsure of which way to go, will be in the same position.
One should NEVER fly below the MSA, VMC or IMC, unless taking off or landing. I suppose one could "discover" a cloud on a long final in a "few at 600ft" scenario .. but then climbing straight ahead should be OK; how many airfields around the UK have a 600ft hill at the far end of the runway, on the runway heading?
If I was totally lost after some prank like that, I would spend my brain capacity in such a dire emergency on getting out of it, getting some orientation sorted out, not making radio calls. Autopilot (if you have one) on immediately, a rapid climb, GPS and the chart.
Sorry if I am missing something here...
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
From: Dublin
One should NEVER fly below the MSA, VMC or IMC, unless taking off or landing.
MSA is generally above the cloud base any day that there is a cloud base! Well that based on how it's calculated here in Ireland. 1000ft above the highest obstace within 8km of track.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
From: Niort
Well up here in Scotland MSA is frequently above the ceiling.
But I do think you're on the right track.
There are not many scenarios where yelling Pan or Mayday is going to help. It will add to your workload and probably at a time when you don't need it.
Lost, IMC in CAS, near a IAP in Class D - then shout. Otherwise sort yourself out - fly the aeroplane.
But I do think you're on the right track.
There are not many scenarios where yelling Pan or Mayday is going to help. It will add to your workload and probably at a time when you don't need it.
Lost, IMC in CAS, near a IAP in Class D - then shout. Otherwise sort yourself out - fly the aeroplane.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
dublinpilot
On the basis of that way of calculating the MSA, I have no problem with that provided the visibility is OK and the peaks are far enough away so a PPL could either descend straight ahead or do a 180 and descend then if necessary. But a fair number of people do get killed that way, getting squeezed between rising ground, lowering cloudbase, and worsening visibility. A lot of the stuff emanating from the CAA is telling people to make the turnaround decision early.
gasax
Surely one would sort out the plane first, and anything else (like PAN calls) comes second. The chance of hitting another plane is extremely small.
I suppose this debate would come down to how far the adjacent high ground is when calculating the MSA...
On the basis of that way of calculating the MSA, I have no problem with that provided the visibility is OK and the peaks are far enough away so a PPL could either descend straight ahead or do a 180 and descend then if necessary. But a fair number of people do get killed that way, getting squeezed between rising ground, lowering cloudbase, and worsening visibility. A lot of the stuff emanating from the CAA is telling people to make the turnaround decision early.
gasax
Surely one would sort out the plane first, and anything else (like PAN calls) comes second. The chance of hitting another plane is extremely small.
I suppose this debate would come down to how far the adjacent high ground is when calculating the MSA...
