Air to air frequency?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Down the field!
Posts: 323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air to air frequency?
I’ve done a search on Pprune on this but I seem to be getting conflicting information!
Is 123.45 a dedicated air to air frequency? If it’s not, is the use of 123.45 ‘tolerated’ as an air to air frequency?
There must be people out there who fly with another aircraft… What frequency (if any) do you use to talk to them? I’m not talking about holding conversations… just passing messages, info etc. If you are going somewhere as a flight of two (Which I soon will be!) what frequency can you use to talk to the pilot of the second aircraft?
Many thanks
Grob Driver
Is 123.45 a dedicated air to air frequency? If it’s not, is the use of 123.45 ‘tolerated’ as an air to air frequency?
There must be people out there who fly with another aircraft… What frequency (if any) do you use to talk to them? I’m not talking about holding conversations… just passing messages, info etc. If you are going somewhere as a flight of two (Which I soon will be!) what frequency can you use to talk to the pilot of the second aircraft?
Many thanks
Grob Driver
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: England
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For months now, every day's notams have included an item that says that 123.45 may not be used for such a purpose in this (UK) area; I can't remember the exact text used.
There have been requests for a dedicated air-to-air frequency but none is generally available in UK airspace as far as I know.
There have been requests for a dedicated air-to-air frequency but none is generally available in UK airspace as far as I know.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is none.
As QNH says the notams read:
And I have it on good authority that 'they' are listening out for any violators.
It is legitimately used for cross oceanic traffic.
Some people seem to use the gliding or ballooning frequencies, so I have heard rumours.
But that would obviously not be legal either.
FD
As QNH says the notams read:
OTH : FROM 03/01/17 15:17 TO PERM B0148/03 E)FREQ 123.45MHZ NOT TO BE USED AS AN AIR TO AIR COMM CHANNEL WITHIN
RANGE OF ANY VHF GROUND STATION IN UK FIRS
RANGE OF ANY VHF GROUND STATION IN UK FIRS
It is legitimately used for cross oceanic traffic.
Some people seem to use the gliding or ballooning frequencies, so I have heard rumours.
But that would obviously not be legal either.
FD
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The official air-to-air frequency in Germany is 122,80
I know there aren't enough frequencies out there. But here's an idea. If certain airfields with A/G were to share frequencies, that would free up some frequencies. Of course, all transmissions on the "shared" frequency would need to be preceeded and followed by the airfield name to avoid confusion, but I can't see that being a problem....
Hmm, I have a feeling I've seen systems like this that work in other countries....
I'm not normally one to put our system down and say that other countries' systems are better - I quite like the unique Britishness of our airspace system. But not having an Air-to-Air frequency is mad.
FFF
-----------
Computer modelling of all the various ground VHF stations in the UK - or Europe for that matter - would surely be an efficient way of re-allocating frequencies? Particularly if one or two were reserved for air-to-air?
aceatco, retired
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: one airshow or another
Posts: 1,431
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
But here's an idea. If certain airfields with A/G were to share frequencies, that would free up some frequencies. Of course, all transmissions on the "shared" frequency would need to be preceeded and followed by the airfield name to avoid confusion, but I can't see that being a problem....
I don't deny that there are legitimate uses for an air-to-air frequency (air-to-air photpgraphy springs to mind for one) but if one was so designated I fear it would be misused by the majority to the detriment of those with a real need. You only have to listen to some of the dross on 123.45 now on a 'good' day.
People have used Old Warden's freq to chat and I have to tell them to s*d off!!
VA
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Worcester
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are there any rules regarding the use of standard two way radios in the air? For example your bog standard Motorola GP300 which has a very good line of sight range! (About 3 - 5 Km)
The only thing is actually using them could be a little tricky, what with the noise et al
and having to remove your headset to speak 
I'll get me coat!
F-Wyg
The only thing is actually using them could be a little tricky, what with the noise et al
and having to remove your headset to speak I'll get me coat!
F-Wyg
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are plenty of vacant frequencies and it is absurd that two aircraft in formation cannot talk to each other in the air. How does that promote flight safety?
If you choose to use 123.45, I suggest not to use your callsign and keep the transmissions short so as not to clog it up for everyone else. As I said, though, there are plenty of vacant frequencies.
David
If you choose to use 123.45, I suggest not to use your callsign and keep the transmissions short so as not to clog it up for everyone else. As I said, though, there are plenty of vacant frequencies.
David
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Who cares? ;-)
Age: 74
Posts: 676
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are plenty of vacant frequencies
for example, the following are the "official" special frequencies published in the German AIP:
121.500 emergency ONLY
122.800 air-to-air
122.300 Training flights at an airfield
123.425 training flights for hanggliders, Ultralights, etc.
120.975 other flights for hanggliders, UL's, etc
122.250 balloon flights
126.725 parachuting
in glider flight we have the following:
123.500 training at an airfield
122.500 cross country glider flying
123.150 training outside of an airfield area
123.350 non-training glider flights
123.400 ground crews
Some of these above frequencies have been designated to glider airfields. I know of 5 fields within 50 km of each other that have to share the 123.150.... especially during aerobatic tows and heavy traffic days you hear almost all fields and you can't tell which is which or you get blocked out! One field has managed to finally get the 124.000. Because of fields sharing frequencies, there is normally a restriction about using it no farther then 15 NM and 3000 ft GND.
I have no idea who "officially" has the 123.45 but I know that many people use it....
Westy
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: N. Europe
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Check out this thread.
Especially the part saying "please, do stay off 123.45 unless you have it in print that it is the local dating hotline".
Cheers,
Fred
Especially the part saying "please, do stay off 123.45 unless you have it in print that it is the local dating hotline".
Cheers,
Fred
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Daventry UK
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QDM
Couldn't agree more about 123.45. It's invaluable for aircraft in loose formation, as in touring parties, etc. in the US and why shouldn't we use it here?
Also interesting that the Notam appeared just a few days after a similar discussion on another site.
Couldn't agree more about 123.45. It's invaluable for aircraft in loose formation, as in touring parties, etc. in the US and why shouldn't we use it here?
Also interesting that the Notam appeared just a few days after a similar discussion on another site.
aceatco, retired
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: one airshow or another
Posts: 1,431
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
As I said, though, there are plenty of vacant frequencies.
I suggest you have a discussion with DAP Frequency Management who might actually disagree with you.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Gone.........for good this time.
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
David Viewing,
The reason that you just can't use 123.45 is because it's reserved for somebody else! Just the same reason that you cant use the Heathrow or Gatwick Approach frequency for 'touring parties'. As anyone who has ever tuned in to 123.45 for a laugh, touring parties tend to be people yakking for yakking's sake!
"What power setting have you got Ted?"
"2400rpm George, what about you?"
"I've got 2375rpm. What height are you at Ted?"
"I'm at 1565ft George, what about you?"
and so on..................
Radio discipline goes out of the (DV) window and it sounds like CB radio all over again.
This subject has been done to death on this forum over the past few years. People try to compare the issue with the US of A Unicom system which is ludicrous. They have been brought up with Unicom over there, using RT when required. and thay ALL know how to use it! And its the size of Europe..
IMHO, if people need an air to air frequency for formation flying etc, then they ain't doing it properly! Those who NEED an Air/Air frequency normally get one! Those who just want to compare notes really dont need one..
The reason that you just can't use 123.45 is because it's reserved for somebody else! Just the same reason that you cant use the Heathrow or Gatwick Approach frequency for 'touring parties'. As anyone who has ever tuned in to 123.45 for a laugh, touring parties tend to be people yakking for yakking's sake!
"What power setting have you got Ted?"
"2400rpm George, what about you?"
"I've got 2375rpm. What height are you at Ted?"
"I'm at 1565ft George, what about you?"
and so on..................
Radio discipline goes out of the (DV) window and it sounds like CB radio all over again.
This subject has been done to death on this forum over the past few years. People try to compare the issue with the US of A Unicom system which is ludicrous. They have been brought up with Unicom over there, using RT when required. and thay ALL know how to use it! And its the size of Europe..
IMHO, if people need an air to air frequency for formation flying etc, then they ain't doing it properly! Those who NEED an Air/Air frequency normally get one! Those who just want to compare notes really dont need one..
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Witnesham, Suffolk
Age: 80
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can think of several situations where an air-to-air frequency would be useful, but they all involve flying in very inhospitable terrain or out of ground station range over the open sea, (ie mostly where 123.45 can legitimately be used.)
It might be interesting for the CAA to "create" a spare frequency for this, as a trial for a few months. My guess is that it would degenerate rapidly into a CB chat channel and be withdrawn.
Gliders and balloons in the UK have such frequencies, and from the little I've listened on them are reasonably disciplined - but they have a specific and important purpose.
It might be interesting for the CAA to "create" a spare frequency for this, as a trial for a few months. My guess is that it would degenerate rapidly into a CB chat channel and be withdrawn.
Gliders and balloons in the UK have such frequencies, and from the little I've listened on them are reasonably disciplined - but they have a specific and important purpose.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: North Wales
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if i can just claify the use of CB radios in the air - the citizens' band is the citizens band, and can be used for pretty much anything. If you are just chating then i see no reason why you wouldn't be allowed to use them.
I think that they could make a spare slot for "GA Chat" but then again we know the efficiancy of the CAA when it comes to anything that involves a decision - take the issue of licenses
WelshFlyer.
I think that they could make a spare slot for "GA Chat" but then again we know the efficiancy of the CAA when it comes to anything that involves a decision - take the issue of licenses
WelshFlyer.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Witnesham, Suffolk
Age: 80
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd be extremely surprised if it's permitted to use CB equipment in flight. It's certainly prohibited to use amateur equipment in flight unless it's been specifically approved for airborne use.
Not sure how they'd know, mind, unless the RA happened to be listening. I wouldn't risk it, all the same.
Not sure how they'd know, mind, unless the RA happened to be listening. I wouldn't risk it, all the same.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO, if people need an air to air frequency for formation flying etc, then they ain't doing it properly! Those who NEED an Air/Air frequency normally get one! Those who just want to compare notes really dont need one..
In the REAL world, talking air to air with another aircraft can / could be extremely useful and contribute to flight safety. The argument that it shouldn't be allowed because it would degenerate into crap is ridiculous. It's like saying you shouldn't fly with retractable gear because sometimes people forget to put it down. The key is education. Right now, people talking air to air do blather on about a load of crap because it's completely unregulated and a free for all. If air to air frequencies existed and there was pilot education about them and the importance of keeping transmissions brief and to the point, we might see less rubbish out there. Drive it underground and of course it's anarchy.
This is happening all the time, every day and it's time the authorities woke up and saw sense.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: North Wales
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd be surprised if it was not allowed - trying to use a 50 quid transciver from argos to contact london information would be CRIMINAL. but for chat i shoudn't think it matters.
These devices are for people to keep in touch with out useing there mobile 'phones - and so they can go 'round with a hissing box tryin' to look important. so for air-to-air chat use i really see no problem.
Also let us consider the frequency these things use - a multiplex on 418Mhz - it's not going to bother people how these things are used as long as, like i said before you don't try to do something stupid - like, god forbid try and use one as you're main transceiver (you'd have a job trying to make them run on 108 - 140 mhz anyway, and they don't use fm, they use binary code decimal)
Maybee one of us would like to try seeing if they can make a headset run in one of these things - if you can, fair play to you and don't forget to tell us all how it goes!
WelshFlyer.
These devices are for people to keep in touch with out useing there mobile 'phones - and so they can go 'round with a hissing box tryin' to look important. so for air-to-air chat use i really see no problem.
Also let us consider the frequency these things use - a multiplex on 418Mhz - it's not going to bother people how these things are used as long as, like i said before you don't try to do something stupid - like, god forbid try and use one as you're main transceiver (you'd have a job trying to make them run on 108 - 140 mhz anyway, and they don't use fm, they use binary code decimal
)Maybee one of us would like to try seeing if they can make a headset run in one of these things - if you can, fair play to you and don't forget to tell us all how it goes!
WelshFlyer.