DIY aeros - was I nuts?
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DIY aeros - was I nuts?
OK, Sunday afternoon, found myself on my own flying something aerobatic (+6/-4G i think) at 4000 feet. After a few steep turns and wingovers, i thought about doing a roll - never had an aeros training 
but i've read a bit, so dive for a bit of speed, nose up to about 30 degrees .. at 100kts centralize controls, full right stick ... wheeee, world rotates around outside ... back level, find myself about 20 degrees nose down, pull up to straight and level, that was fun 
do a couple more. Look at G meter, reading +2.5, probably pulling out of the first one. Go back home with 
on face
Talking to pilot friend later, told him about this. Conversation was something like
Him: "Oh, I didn't know you'd done some aeros training"
Me: "I haven't"
Him: "Then you're a
ing fool then"
Am I? I wasn't doing anything like loops or stall turns, I figured that nothing much could go wrong with a roll - i've done spin training so happy that i could get out of that, and had lots of height.
but i've read a bit, so dive for a bit of speed, nose up to about 30 degrees .. at 100kts centralize controls, full right stick ... wheeee, world rotates around outside ... back level, find myself about 20 degrees nose down, pull up to straight and level, that was fun do a couple more. Look at G meter, reading +2.5, probably pulling out of the first one. Go back home with on faceTalking to pilot friend later, told him about this. Conversation was something like
Him: "Oh, I didn't know you'd done some aeros training"
Me: "I haven't"
Him: "Then you're a
ing fool then"Am I? I wasn't doing anything like loops or stall turns, I figured that nothing much could go wrong with a roll - i've done spin training so happy that i could get out of that, and had lots of height.
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It probably was quite dangerous but then someone had to try out aerobatics for the first time and they wouldn't have had any training. I know the consequences are much graver while flying if a mistake is made but where's the harm in trying things out for yourself if you're confident in your own skills.
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LP,
You haven't told us the type, but lots of things might go wrong even with an apparently simple manoeuvre. Even experienced aerobatics pilots have things go differently from how they expect from time to time. Their experience and training are then what they draw on to get out of those situations.
What might have gone wrong? Much depends on the type. But, for example, you might have found something heavy drifting up from the floor or the luggage compartment and whacking you in the head, or you might have gone slightly negative with a carb-fed engine and had it stop on you, or you might have got disorientated upside down and slackened off the aileron (quite common I believe among people trying their first roll) and gone into a high speed inverted dive, or you might not have got the nose up high enough to start with, with the same result. Fortunately none of those things happened.
I don't have any real insight into how you went about it, but from what you wrote it comes across as very much a spur-of-the-moment decision, no real preparation beforehand. Spontaneity is not a terrific idea when you're starting aerobatics, a very methodical and disciplined approach makes it much easier to cope and learn in safety. While a few people have successfully taught themselves aerobatics (though I don't recommend it) I'd suggest those who have survived are those who have gone about it with great caution and foresight in other respects.
It would be safer to know the G limits than to think you know them. Had you read what the POH has to say about aerobatics in that type? And is that G rating valid at the part of the loading envelope that you were actually operating at? What fuel did you have in what tanks? You used full aileron, and at 100kts that's probably OK depending on type, but do you know the max speed for full aileron application? Do you know the way that aileron deflection generally reduces the load-bearing capacity of the wing, so the more roll, the less G you should pull? Did you know for a fact there was nothing in the luggage compartment? Had you done a loose articles check? Were you in suitable airspace, and what kind of lookout did you do? Did you do the HASELL (or similar) checks that you would do before stalling, spinning etc?
I think you'd find a course of dual instruction, and the accompanying groundschool, both fun and illuminating, and it should certainly include the importance of those questions.
You haven't told us the type, but lots of things might go wrong even with an apparently simple manoeuvre. Even experienced aerobatics pilots have things go differently from how they expect from time to time. Their experience and training are then what they draw on to get out of those situations.
What might have gone wrong? Much depends on the type. But, for example, you might have found something heavy drifting up from the floor or the luggage compartment and whacking you in the head, or you might have gone slightly negative with a carb-fed engine and had it stop on you, or you might have got disorientated upside down and slackened off the aileron (quite common I believe among people trying their first roll) and gone into a high speed inverted dive, or you might not have got the nose up high enough to start with, with the same result. Fortunately none of those things happened.
I don't have any real insight into how you went about it, but from what you wrote it comes across as very much a spur-of-the-moment decision, no real preparation beforehand. Spontaneity is not a terrific idea when you're starting aerobatics, a very methodical and disciplined approach makes it much easier to cope and learn in safety. While a few people have successfully taught themselves aerobatics (though I don't recommend it) I'd suggest those who have survived are those who have gone about it with great caution and foresight in other respects.
flying something aerobatic (+6/-4G i think)
I think you'd find a course of dual instruction, and the accompanying groundschool, both fun and illuminating, and it should certainly include the importance of those questions.
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Nuts - Yes
Insured - probably not
Safe - You'll have to answer for yourself
Overall verdict - risky, but you seem to have got away with it!!
Would I have done the same - probably (but over a period of 30 yrs, I've been talked through a number of basic aero manoeuvres by RAF pilots sitting in front / alongside me whilst I make various attempts)
IMHO, going off and doing some aeros without any sort of experience / training was not the most sensible thing to have done. Confessing to it publicly on PPRuNe was probably even less sensible as you're probably going to get flamed like you've never been flamed before!!
On a personal level - good on yer' - shows a healthy disrespect for the rules, which is not always bad!!
Insured - probably not
Safe - You'll have to answer for yourself
Overall verdict - risky, but you seem to have got away with it!!
Would I have done the same - probably (but over a period of 30 yrs, I've been talked through a number of basic aero manoeuvres by RAF pilots sitting in front / alongside me whilst I make various attempts)
IMHO, going off and doing some aeros without any sort of experience / training was not the most sensible thing to have done. Confessing to it publicly on PPRuNe was probably even less sensible as you're probably going to get flamed like you've never been flamed before!!
On a personal level - good on yer' - shows a healthy disrespect for the rules, which is not always bad!!
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Not wanting to discourage your adventurous flying, there are some things to consider:
(1). You only think you knew the G limits of the plane you were flying. I would ensure that I knew them beforehand - think about the consequences if you exceeded them (costs inspections, damage to the airframe etc).
(2). What if you had entered a spin? Have you spun before? Do you know the correct recovery actions for that particular aircraft? (I have read that the correct actions for one type could lead to entering an un-recoverable spin in another)
I haven't trained in aeros myself, but I intend to before I do any aerobatic activity. I believe in a certain degree of paranoia when it comes to my life!! I am hooked on aeros however - I went flying in the Microlease Extra 300s a few weeks ago. Lots of nasty manouvers were performed by the pilot - outside loop particularly uncomfortable
Just some thoughts - not a lecture I hope
(1). You only think you knew the G limits of the plane you were flying. I would ensure that I knew them beforehand - think about the consequences if you exceeded them (costs inspections, damage to the airframe etc).
(2). What if you had entered a spin? Have you spun before? Do you know the correct recovery actions for that particular aircraft? (I have read that the correct actions for one type could lead to entering an un-recoverable spin in another)
I haven't trained in aeros myself, but I intend to before I do any aerobatic activity. I believe in a certain degree of paranoia when it comes to my life!! I am hooked on aeros however - I went flying in the Microlease Extra 300s a few weeks ago. Lots of nasty manouvers were performed by the pilot - outside loop particularly uncomfortable
Just some thoughts - not a lecture I hope
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Lowtimer has got it pretty much said. Aero's can go wrong, but it's more that you need to know your machine very well before you start to push it. Which to be honest it doesn't sound like.
I would recommend to anyone wanting to do aero's to go and do a proper course with an instructor, who would then not just show you how to do the manoeveurs, but what happens if it all goes wrong. This is what I teach mostly, rather than just how to pull a faultless sequence. (that's nice tho'!!)
What you did wasn't illegal as such, but not sensible, but hey if we were all sensible, none of us would fly very much!!
You got away with it, but to really enjoy it, get some training. Once you're confident and you lose that "should I be doing this feeling" it really is the best fun you can have with OR without clothing!
Mind you I would say that as an instructor!
5 hours of aero's will increase your handling skill by 500% more than 5 hours of just burning holes in the sky.
I would recommend to anyone wanting to do aero's to go and do a proper course with an instructor, who would then not just show you how to do the manoeveurs, but what happens if it all goes wrong. This is what I teach mostly, rather than just how to pull a faultless sequence. (that's nice tho'!!)
What you did wasn't illegal as such, but not sensible, but hey if we were all sensible, none of us would fly very much!!
You got away with it, but to really enjoy it, get some training. Once you're confident and you lose that "should I be doing this feeling" it really is the best fun you can have with OR without clothing!
Mind you I would say that as an instructor!5 hours of aero's will increase your handling skill by 500% more than 5 hours of just burning holes in the sky.
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Bonkers, but you're ok, aeroplane's ok... time to book some training. You'll get taught unusual attitude recovery etc...and hey, they'll even teach you how to do a roll properly. I mean, 20 degrees nose down on exit? Tsk tsk
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Lecture needed I think 
I'd rather keep quiet about the type
but it's fuel-injected, i did do a proper HASELL (including nothing heavy) and the "I think" about the g limit is because it might have a .5 on the end, it is at least +6/-4G. But Lowtimer is right and 'no' is the answer to most of his or her questions. It was a spur-of-the-moment decision, the airplane has a great roll rate and having whacked on 90 degrees of bank for a few wingovers I just thought why not...?
Don't mind confessing of Prune if I learn from it and as for flaming, probably deserve it.
I'd rather keep quiet about the type
but it's fuel-injected, i did do a proper HASELL (including nothing heavy) and the "I think" about the g limit is because it might have a .5 on the end, it is at least +6/-4G. But Lowtimer is right and 'no' is the answer to most of his or her questions. It was a spur-of-the-moment decision, the airplane has a great roll rate and having whacked on 90 degrees of bank for a few wingovers I just thought why not...?Don't mind confessing of Prune if I learn from it and as for flaming, probably deserve it.
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Learning Aero's is not just about learning the manouvers, like most things in aviation the basics are not hard but you need to know what to do if it goes wrong. This is the main thing i want a student to know before I will let them off to practice Aero's by themself. Another problem is you may not realise you are overreving the engine - this is a very common problem with people new to Aero's (Hands up Aero instructors who never have to touch the throttle on the first few Aero's sessions) and can prove very expensive at the least.
Circuit Basher - A HEALTHY disrespect for the rules involves Knowing what you are doing, THEN doing something you can get away with but perhaps shouldn't!
Circuit Basher - A HEALTHY disrespect for the rules involves Knowing what you are doing, THEN doing something you can get away with but perhaps shouldn't!
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So where would you go to learn aeros? I have thought about doing the AOPA course somewhere but others are a bit critical of the AOPA sylabus - don't know why.
I spoke to a helpful man at the Tiger Club at Headcorn who was firmly of the view that their traditional approach is the right one, i.e. start off on their Stamp and progress to the Tiger Moth. This is a cheep option as all you pay for is aircraft hire at about £140 per hour. At the other end of the scale you can do it at vast expence on Pitts or Extras.
Any views, anyone?
I spoke to a helpful man at the Tiger Club at Headcorn who was firmly of the view that their traditional approach is the right one, i.e. start off on their Stamp and progress to the Tiger Moth. This is a cheep option as all you pay for is aircraft hire at about £140 per hour. At the other end of the scale you can do it at vast expence on Pitts or Extras.
Any views, anyone?
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Justiciar, hi!
In my humble opinion, if you learn aeros properly in a Stampe or a Tiger or even an Aerobat/Citabria then when you do progress to something with more power and higher wing loading, the Pitts or Extra, you will have acquired the necessary input skills to fly the higher powered aircraft very nicely!
Stik
In my humble opinion, if you learn aeros properly in a Stampe or a Tiger or even an Aerobat/Citabria then when you do progress to something with more power and higher wing loading, the Pitts or Extra, you will have acquired the necessary input skills to fly the higher powered aircraft very nicely!
Stik
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Justiciar - I asked about the AOPA course a while ago here, got some useful views. Having talked to foxmoth about it I'm not so worried about the actual syllabus any more, I think he's got the right idea about teaching recovery techniques so that you can practice safely.
Which reminds me, foxmoth - check your PMs
Which reminds me, foxmoth - check your PMs
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- It was a spur-of-the-moment decision-
How may DEAD pilots said that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get some training ol mate - then you will discover why its required.
Aeros are great and good fun in trained hands
How may DEAD pilots said that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get some training ol mate - then you will discover why its required.
Aeros are great and good fun in trained hands
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Are you nuts - no!
Would I recommend it - no!
Have I done stuff like that myself - er.. !
It’s very easy to get all holyer than thou about these things. My view is that you were P1, you were solo and your arse was in the seat. You broke no rules and you learned from the experience - I admire your spirit of adventure.
May I remind everyone that Neil Williams taught himself aeros and his accounts of his first aerobatic flights are inspiring reading indeed.
Sure, now get some training and learn properly. But its not everyday you do something that you can tell the grandkids about - good on you.
Kingy
Would I recommend it - no!
Have I done stuff like that myself - er..
!It’s very easy to get all holyer than thou about these things. My view is that you were P1, you were solo and your arse was in the seat. You broke no rules and you learned from the experience - I admire your spirit of adventure.
May I remind everyone that Neil Williams taught himself aeros and his accounts of his first aerobatic flights are inspiring reading indeed.
Sure, now get some training and learn properly. But its not everyday you do something that you can tell the grandkids about - good on you.
Kingy
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Denny Dobson is a self taught aeros man so it can be done.
However there are also a lot of peeps who did a 'let's have a look or see how well I can do this and ended up in a heap.
Recently started flying a new type.
One of the things on the checklist states:
'Too many ded pilots fly in heaven'
One to bear in mind, IMHO.
FD
However there are also a lot of peeps who did a 'let's have a look or see how well I can do this and ended up in a heap.
Recently started flying a new type.
One of the things on the checklist states:
'Too many ded pilots fly in heaven'
One to bear in mind, IMHO.
FD
Last edited by Flyin'Dutch'; 4th Aug 2003 at 20:59.
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Liar's poker,
Don't worry about getting a ribbing. It's good that you've had the b*lls to ask. Few people do that unfortunately. As I'm sure you've heard on these hallowed pages before. "there's no such thing as stupid question, only stupid answers." Sums up instructing really!!
Don't worry about getting a ribbing. It's good that you've had the b*lls to ask. Few people do that unfortunately. As I'm sure you've heard on these hallowed pages before. "there's no such thing as stupid question, only stupid answers." Sums up instructing really!!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Haven't got time to read all the replies right now, although I expect what I'm about to say will agree with the vast majority.
Yes, you were stupid. I'm glad it went ok for you, and you apparently enjoyed it - but don't do it again.
One of the scariest things I've ever done in an aeroplane was a simple loop. I'd just completed a 10-hour aeros course, so I knew at least roughly what I was doing, but this was a new aircraft. I pulled too hard, stalled, got confused about whether I was upright or inverted, and tried to recover from an inverted stall instead of an upright stall, which only made the problem worse.
Fortunately, there was an experienced instructor sat in front of me.
FFF
----------------
Yes, you were stupid. I'm glad it went ok for you, and you apparently enjoyed it - but don't do it again.
One of the scariest things I've ever done in an aeroplane was a simple loop. I'd just completed a 10-hour aeros course, so I knew at least roughly what I was doing, but this was a new aircraft. I pulled too hard, stalled, got confused about whether I was upright or inverted, and tried to recover from an inverted stall instead of an upright stall, which only made the problem worse.
Fortunately, there was an experienced instructor sat in front of me.
FFF
----------------
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What a good forum this is
I get the message, I did something fairly bloody stupid, but nobody flamed. Got some fairly stern words which to be honest i deserve, advice from those who know abnout why it's stupd. ILAFTT, thanks guys
I get the message, I did something fairly bloody stupid, but nobody flamed. Got some fairly stern words which to be honest i deserve, advice from those who know abnout why it's stupd. ILAFTT, thanks guys
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Yeah, you've got the message but I do hope that your appetite has been whetted and that you will perhaps get into aerobatics as a hobby. It is the best sport in the world.
Kingy.
I'd also like to point out that Neil Williams was flying a much more forgiving aircraft than is the norm today. And he's dead, too!
Kingy.
I'd also like to point out that Neil Williams was flying a much more forgiving aircraft than is the norm today. And he's dead, too!