My Blood is boiling - The CAA (licencing)
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My Blood is boiling - The CAA (licencing)
This has probaby been done to death....
On the 29th May, I passed my PPL.
Back at the flying school, I filled out all of the necessery forms, and with the examiners help, we put everything into an envelope and off it went on its merry little way.
About four weeks later, I received a parcel from the CAA. I opened it with glee, and watched with dismay as lots of items dropped out.
My log book, Medical certificate, two letters but alas, no licence.
I read the first letter, which informed me that my aplication had been successful, apart from one trifling matter. My passport. The CAA Lords decided that the photocopy of my passport was not good enough. They wanted the real thing.
THe other piece of paper told me to go through my logbook and to go over all the pencil entries that I'd made. (I'd forgotten to change them before I sent it off.)
So feeling very let down, I sent off my passport, hoping that everything would now go according to plan.
I waited and waited, and about ten days later another parcel arrived from the CAA. I opened it with glee, and out dropped my passport - and nothing else. No letter, nothing.
Confused, i waited a few more days, and then a letter arrived from the CAA. It contained a receipt of payment for my application.
In the meantime, I had been flying the club aircraft, but having to be signed off by one of the instructors each time I flew (Like being a student). This wasn't so bad, but I couldn't take any passengers. However, I reasoned that my licence would be arriving imminently, so I arranged with a fellow PPL (who had just recently passed, and was awaiting his own licence) to fly a longer trip together. I booked the aircraft a month in advance, and we looked forward to our sortie.
The day of this flight is this Friday. And my licence still hasn't arrived. When it was not delivered today, I decided to ring the CAA.
I rang them at 11 am, and after waiting for nearly 20 minutes, I was told (via a recorded message) that I should ring during office hours! Can you believe that?
So I bit the bullet and went through the whole process again, and was eventually put through to some poor security guard!
'Oh another one,' he said. 'I wonder why this is happening? Hang on mate, I'll put you through.'
And so I was plunged into the God forsaken system for a third time. My blood was boiling and I felt steam building up.
However, this time a lady answered the phone. I explained my predicament, and she told me that my application was in the 'loading' section (whatever or wherever that is) and ithat it was just a matter of waiting.
'How long?' I asked.
'Oh, I wouldn't like to say really. Probably within a month.'
'A month! A month! Is there any way to speed up the process?' I asked in desperation.
'No, sorry.'
She explained that the 'loading' department were only up to applications from the 2nd July. And because of my passport debacle, my application hadn't been sent to the 'loading' department until the 17th. My licence was at the bottom of a huge pile, going nowhere fast.
So it seems that my flight will have to be cancelled on Friday. And I am not happy at all.
So my question is this. Is what I have gone through a normal experience. Because if it is, then surely there is a better way. If 'That's Life' was still on TV, I'd write to them!
On the 29th May, I passed my PPL.
Back at the flying school, I filled out all of the necessery forms, and with the examiners help, we put everything into an envelope and off it went on its merry little way.
About four weeks later, I received a parcel from the CAA. I opened it with glee, and watched with dismay as lots of items dropped out.
My log book, Medical certificate, two letters but alas, no licence.
I read the first letter, which informed me that my aplication had been successful, apart from one trifling matter. My passport. The CAA Lords decided that the photocopy of my passport was not good enough. They wanted the real thing.
THe other piece of paper told me to go through my logbook and to go over all the pencil entries that I'd made. (I'd forgotten to change them before I sent it off.)
So feeling very let down, I sent off my passport, hoping that everything would now go according to plan.
I waited and waited, and about ten days later another parcel arrived from the CAA. I opened it with glee, and out dropped my passport - and nothing else. No letter, nothing.
Confused, i waited a few more days, and then a letter arrived from the CAA. It contained a receipt of payment for my application.
In the meantime, I had been flying the club aircraft, but having to be signed off by one of the instructors each time I flew (Like being a student). This wasn't so bad, but I couldn't take any passengers. However, I reasoned that my licence would be arriving imminently, so I arranged with a fellow PPL (who had just recently passed, and was awaiting his own licence) to fly a longer trip together. I booked the aircraft a month in advance, and we looked forward to our sortie.
The day of this flight is this Friday. And my licence still hasn't arrived. When it was not delivered today, I decided to ring the CAA.
I rang them at 11 am, and after waiting for nearly 20 minutes, I was told (via a recorded message) that I should ring during office hours! Can you believe that?
So I bit the bullet and went through the whole process again, and was eventually put through to some poor security guard!
'Oh another one,' he said. 'I wonder why this is happening? Hang on mate, I'll put you through.'
And so I was plunged into the God forsaken system for a third time. My blood was boiling and I felt steam building up.
However, this time a lady answered the phone. I explained my predicament, and she told me that my application was in the 'loading' section (whatever or wherever that is) and ithat it was just a matter of waiting.
'How long?' I asked.
'Oh, I wouldn't like to say really. Probably within a month.'
'A month! A month! Is there any way to speed up the process?' I asked in desperation.
'No, sorry.'
She explained that the 'loading' department were only up to applications from the 2nd July. And because of my passport debacle, my application hadn't been sent to the 'loading' department until the 17th. My licence was at the bottom of a huge pile, going nowhere fast.
So it seems that my flight will have to be cancelled on Friday. And I am not happy at all.
So my question is this. Is what I have gone through a normal experience. Because if it is, then surely there is a better way. If 'That's Life' was still on TV, I'd write to them!
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Well the Irish Aviation Authority gets a lot of bashing (not here).
However I have to say when I passed my skills test, I drove to their office the next morning and left in my paperwork, explained that I wanted the licence asap, and collected it from them that afternoon!
Well done guys in the IAA
dp
However I have to say when I passed my skills test, I drove to their office the next morning and left in my paperwork, explained that I wanted the licence asap, and collected it from them that afternoon!
Well done guys in the IAA
dp
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Flock1 mentioned that....
That got me thinking......I know the ANO is quite specific insofar as validity of the licence granted under Article 22 shall not be valid unless it bears thereon the ordinary signature of the holder in ink.
This means that the full process of issue has to be completed before the holder can exercise his priviledges even though it looks on the face of it that the application has been accepted. I wonder why that specific requirement was included in the statutory instrument.
A licence for a motor vehicle seems to be a different kettle of fish. Doesn't help stem the frustration Flock1 sorry about that, but an interesting point to note.
I think someone could write a book on the adventures of getting a PPL, I am sure it would be a good read for any new folk considering whether to learn to fly!
.....I read the first letter, which informed me that my aplication had been successful.....
This means that the full process of issue has to be completed before the holder can exercise his priviledges even though it looks on the face of it that the application has been accepted. I wonder why that specific requirement was included in the statutory instrument.
A licence for a motor vehicle seems to be a different kettle of fish. Doesn't help stem the frustration Flock1 sorry about that, but an interesting point to note.
I think someone could write a book on the adventures of getting a PPL, I am sure it would be a good read for any new folk considering whether to learn to fly!
Last edited by Andrew Sinclair; 29th Jul 2003 at 19:52.
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CAA Licencing
I know the frustration as I had the same problem. It seems that the CAA changed the rule on photocopys of passports without telling anyone, and it now HAS to be endorsed by your flying club before they process your licence. Also you go to the back of the list when they receive the corrected photocopy. ( A wait of a further 16 WORKING days)
Anyone sending in for their licence beware of the above.
I also rang them but found them very helpful and got my licence exactly 16 working days after they had received the corrected paperwork. Apparently, you can also go to Gatwick and collect it. I know of one chap at our club who did just that after getting fed up waiting.
Not that it helps, but, in the end it's is worth the wait.
Anyone sending in for their licence beware of the above.
I also rang them but found them very helpful and got my licence exactly 16 working days after they had received the corrected paperwork. Apparently, you can also go to Gatwick and collect it. I know of one chap at our club who did just that after getting fed up waiting.
Not that it helps, but, in the end it's is worth the wait.
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PPL - took about 3 weeks but was delayed because I didn't get my log book countersigned by the flying school
CPL took about 2 weeks and no problems. IR about 5 days - I was impressed.
I think they aim to have licences processed within 10 days now. But if there is the slightest thing wrong with your application, this can delay things a lot.
Totally sympathise with your experiences with the CAA telephone system. It always takes ages. Perhaps the CAA gets part of the call cost
CPL took about 2 weeks and no problems. IR about 5 days - I was impressed.
I think they aim to have licences processed within 10 days now. But if there is the slightest thing wrong with your application, this can delay things a lot.
Totally sympathise with your experiences with the CAA telephone system. It always takes ages. Perhaps the CAA gets part of the call cost
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Parris50 - do you mean you can show up and ask them to issue it 'while you wait', even if you're still waiting for your envelope to be opened? They refused to do that for me when I happened to be in Gatwick anyway.
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I'd blame your flying school/examiner. They should have told you that a photocopy of your proof of identity should be authorised by them (it does say this on the application form) and that your log book entries should be in pen not pencil. In fact, they should have checked your application before it was sent and spotted these potential problems.
For what it's worth my application took about 6 weeks. I kept calling and eventually a woman said that it was still in a huge pile and she couldn't understand why mine hadn't been done yet. She promised to process it herself, personally, and send it the next day, which she did, so I guess it can be done.
For what it's worth my application took about 6 weeks. I kept calling and eventually a woman said that it was still in a huge pile and she couldn't understand why mine hadn't been done yet. She promised to process it herself, personally, and send it the next day, which she did, so I guess it can be done.
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I sent my application off just over 2 weeks ago and I am slightly concerned as posts on here have said that the CAA take the money first then issue the liscence sometime later, but the CAA havent taken any money from me yet 
Do you think this is normal or should they have taken the money? I sent the package recorded delivery and included my birth certificate and not my passport as the form said either or would suffice
Dean.
Do you think this is normal or should they have taken the money? I sent the package recorded delivery and included my birth certificate and not my passport as the form said either or would suffice
Dean.
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Birth certificate's fine I think.
I believe they put things in order of how received, then it takes 3 weeks to open them, then they check all is correct, then they charge you, then they do this loading thing and (I'm told) a week from 'loading' you get the licence.
I might phone my mate tomorrow to check how thigns are going - anyone want any questions answered?
I believe they put things in order of how received, then it takes 3 weeks to open them, then they check all is correct, then they charge you, then they do this loading thing and (I'm told) a week from 'loading' you get the licence.
I might phone my mate tomorrow to check how thigns are going - anyone want any questions answered?
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I sent my application off just over 2 weeks ago and I am slightly concerned as posts on here have said that the CAA take the money first then issue the liscence sometime later, but the CAA havent taken any money from me yet
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It seems daft that the examiner is unable to issue you with the licence after you have passed the exam. Surely a system where prior to the Skills test all paperwork is correct and up to date and presented to the examiner on the day to show all has been done, and a payment made as part of the skills test would be a more efficient way of doing this, thus allowing the Licence holder to exercise the privilege of their licence straight away.
The examiner attends the skills test with all the appropriate paperwork done and subject to the individual passing ,the licence would be handed over.
Sound a pipe dream , well thats what happens with us , simple efficient and it is the CAA who issues us with our licences to.
The examiner attends the skills test with all the appropriate paperwork done and subject to the individual passing ,the licence would be handed over.
Sound a pipe dream , well thats what happens with us , simple efficient and it is the CAA who issues us with our licences to.
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After 6 weeks, I made the mistake of phoning them from my mobile, 25 minutes on hold!
Anyway, I eventualy got through to someone, and I was probibly a bit Greensleved up by then and was maybe not super polite and subservient, the lady found my application, said there was nothing wrong with it and it should be out in the next day or so.
So there you go just ask and it will be delivered in a further 6 weeks time!
IMHO if you hassle them, you just go down to the bottom again!
Anyway, I eventualy got through to someone, and I was probibly a bit Greensleved up by then and was maybe not super polite and subservient, the lady found my application, said there was nothing wrong with it and it should be out in the next day or so.
So there you go just ask and it will be delivered in a further 6 weeks time!
IMHO if you hassle them, you just go down to the bottom again!
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I would suspect Andy that its down maybe to the Civil service attitude that pervades many organizations where change is perceived as bad and not good.
Radical overhauls of processes are long overdue, all I hear time and time again from Pilots be they PPL or ATPL is that there licence has yet to be issued, in the case of ATPLs this actually prevents them from earning a living which is simply unacceptable
In the interim why are they not taking on temporary staff to clear the backlog, they should be able to issue a licence within 24 hrs of receiving all the paperwork I'm sure.
As an aside but also partly in connection with this, I lost my Class 1 medical 4 years ago, when my doctor advised I was fit to return to work I had to seen AME at Gatwick I rang and they advised me I would have a priority appointment, for an appointment to be given 2 months later, after the appointment in which the AME advised I was fit to return to work it took a further 2 1/2 months before i got the paperwork back from the CAA allowing me to return to work. During this period I was unable to draw full pay but I have no recourse to the CAA
(edited asI remembered I had even more to rant about)
Radical overhauls of processes are long overdue, all I hear time and time again from Pilots be they PPL or ATPL is that there licence has yet to be issued, in the case of ATPLs this actually prevents them from earning a living which is simply unacceptable
In the interim why are they not taking on temporary staff to clear the backlog, they should be able to issue a licence within 24 hrs of receiving all the paperwork I'm sure.
As an aside but also partly in connection with this, I lost my Class 1 medical 4 years ago, when my doctor advised I was fit to return to work I had to seen AME at Gatwick I rang and they advised me I would have a priority appointment, for an appointment to be given 2 months later, after the appointment in which the AME advised I was fit to return to work it took a further 2 1/2 months before i got the paperwork back from the CAA allowing me to return to work. During this period I was unable to draw full pay but I have no recourse to the CAA
(edited asI remembered I had even more to rant about)
Last edited by flower; 30th Jul 2003 at 02:37.
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Penguina,
I have only one question for you to ask the CAA. And it is to be directed at the slow coach with the knackered old typewriter, who resides in the CAA loading dept, printing off one licence every few days. Here is my polite question:
When will I get my F*****G licence!?!
How many licences do they have to process at any one time anyway, because there cannot be that many can there? Or is my description above accurate do you suppose. One man (elderly probably) working in the 'loading' office for an hour each day, before going to the 'finance' office, to cash a few cheques, before going to the security office, to protect the building from the hordes of angry and confused pilots awaiting their licences.
And you may all laugh at me here - but as I have never ever seen a pilots licence, I'm hoping that when it does (if it does) arrive, that it looks impressive . I'm expecting gold embroidered edging, with embossed writing on the glittery front cover. I'm also expecting it to be impressive enough to amaze all my mates. I will accept nothing less for 145 pounds and a two month wait. The CAA printer must be top of the range...
I have only one question for you to ask the CAA. And it is to be directed at the slow coach with the knackered old typewriter, who resides in the CAA loading dept, printing off one licence every few days. Here is my polite question:
When will I get my F*****G licence!?!
How many licences do they have to process at any one time anyway, because there cannot be that many can there? Or is my description above accurate do you suppose. One man (elderly probably) working in the 'loading' office for an hour each day, before going to the 'finance' office, to cash a few cheques, before going to the security office, to protect the building from the hordes of angry and confused pilots awaiting their licences.
And you may all laugh at me here - but as I have never ever seen a pilots licence, I'm hoping that when it does (if it does) arrive, that it looks impressive . I'm expecting gold embroidered edging, with embossed writing on the glittery front cover. I'm also expecting it to be impressive enough to amaze all my mates. I will accept nothing less for 145 pounds and a two month wait. The CAA printer must be top of the range...
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"nice" to hear of your problems.... I thought only we had them 
Before JAR-FCL, only five minutes was needed to process a licence here in Germany... the pilot came in, and while he went down to pay at the cashier, his licence was processed and he could take it with him. Since May 1, with introduction of JAR-FCL (at the beginning of the flying season!!) at least 30 min. to 2 hours is needed for processing, the new software keeps crashing, there is not enough personel and the ones doing the work end up calling in sick (stress symptoms), no one understands completely the new regs... frustration abound and there is now a back log at the authroity for my area of 5-6 weeks!! The pilots are "starting" to get quite angry!!
Westy
P.S. over here you send the copy of your birth cerificate at the beginning of training and not at the end and the logbooks are checked by the school or instructors, a paper is signed to proove the correctness of it, but the book itself is not sent in!
Before JAR-FCL, only five minutes was needed to process a licence here in Germany... the pilot came in, and while he went down to pay at the cashier, his licence was processed and he could take it with him. Since May 1, with introduction of JAR-FCL (at the beginning of the flying season!!) at least 30 min. to 2 hours is needed for processing, the new software keeps crashing, there is not enough personel and the ones doing the work end up calling in sick (stress symptoms), no one understands completely the new regs... frustration abound and there is now a back log at the authroity for my area of 5-6 weeks!! The pilots are "starting" to get quite angry!!
WestyP.S. over here you send the copy of your birth cerificate at the beginning of training and not at the end and the logbooks are checked by the school or instructors, a paper is signed to proove the correctness of it, but the book itself is not sent in!
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Oh Flock1, are you in for a disappointment!
A 'nice shade of tan' was the best description I've seen of it.
'S**t brown' was the least complementary.
Don't be too disappointed by what it looks like, remember its a lot harder to keep it than it was to get it in the first place.
A 'nice shade of tan' was the best description I've seen of it.
'S**t brown' was the least complementary.
Don't be too disappointed by what it looks like, remember its a lot harder to keep it than it was to get it in the first place.