Robin DR400's
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Robin DR400's
In a recent thread about structural failure, I commented on the case of the DR400 that lost a wing in flight - ostensibly due to poor construction quality.
Well, that may be the downside (and it's a big one) for some aircraft produced in a clearly determined period. But having just done my first longish trip in a DR400 (1500 miles in 3 days), I wanted to say what fantastic touring aircraft they are.
I was flying a late-model 160hp variant. We managed to load 4 adults, 30kg of baggage and a full main fuel tank, without any weight or balance problems. With that load, we got off the ground after about 500m, climbed at perhaps 600ft/min, and cruised at 120kts in considerable comfort. The visibility is superb, the noise levels not bad, the handling reasonable and the landing as easy as they come.
With a reduced fuel load, we managed to take off safely from a 750m runway at 2500ft when the outside temperature was 33°C (which I think makes the density altitude just over 5000ft), which isn't something I'd want to try in a PA28.
All in all, very impressive.
If anyone wants to donate a nice, newish DR400 to a good home, please PM me!
Well, that may be the downside (and it's a big one) for some aircraft produced in a clearly determined period. But having just done my first longish trip in a DR400 (1500 miles in 3 days), I wanted to say what fantastic touring aircraft they are.
I was flying a late-model 160hp variant. We managed to load 4 adults, 30kg of baggage and a full main fuel tank, without any weight or balance problems. With that load, we got off the ground after about 500m, climbed at perhaps 600ft/min, and cruised at 120kts in considerable comfort. The visibility is superb, the noise levels not bad, the handling reasonable and the landing as easy as they come.
With a reduced fuel load, we managed to take off safely from a 750m runway at 2500ft when the outside temperature was 33°C (which I think makes the density altitude just over 5000ft), which isn't something I'd want to try in a PA28.
All in all, very impressive.
If anyone wants to donate a nice, newish DR400 to a good home, please PM me!
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Not quite true!
The wing came of that DR400 because the pilot was doing aerobatics that the aircraft is not cleared for , during the investigation it was found by the french authoritys that the glued surface area of the spar booms was able to take the design loads but only if the glue joint was of a very high quality.
This is usualy not a problem as almost all of what Robin turn out of the factory is very good ( the build quality was commented upon faourably by the UK AAIB in the report when a DR400 broke up in flight following striking an object after landing on a previous flight ) but it was felt that a small increase in the glued area of the spar boom would increase the margin for error at manufacture and garantee the structure would not fail even if the glue joint was not 100%.
An AD has been issued that requiers the spar boom to have some aditonal wood glued onto the spar , the cost of this is about £3000 so if you are looking at buying a DR400 cost this in to the price that pay !.
A few aircraft around the S/N 770 range are exempt from this requirment.
This is usualy not a problem as almost all of what Robin turn out of the factory is very good ( the build quality was commented upon faourably by the UK AAIB in the report when a DR400 broke up in flight following striking an object after landing on a previous flight ) but it was felt that a small increase in the glued area of the spar boom would increase the margin for error at manufacture and garantee the structure would not fail even if the glue joint was not 100%.
An AD has been issued that requiers the spar boom to have some aditonal wood glued onto the spar , the cost of this is about £3000 so if you are looking at buying a DR400 cost this in to the price that pay !.
A few aircraft around the S/N 770 range are exempt from this requirment.
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Hi
About the most efficient bang per buck to be had!
I used to be in a DR400 syndicate and as you say you have to go a long way to beat them in load hauling capacity with a very good cruise, economical too.
Comfortable and the viz. Superb!
I have yet to find anyone who has flown them and not liked 'em.
FD
About the most efficient bang per buck to be had!
I used to be in a DR400 syndicate and as you say you have to go a long way to beat them in load hauling capacity with a very good cruise, economical too.
Comfortable and the viz. Superb!
I have yet to find anyone who has flown them and not liked 'em.
FD
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I too am a big Robin fan. I used to do a lot of teaching on them in my yoof.
Spare parts prices/lead-times and rather iffy performance on short fields are about the only things you can say to knock them.
Charlie.
Spare parts prices/lead-times and rather iffy performance on short fields are about the only things you can say to knock them.
Charlie.
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A and C
I think you're doing a dis-service to the pilot. The accident report said he wasn't doing aeros, based on witness reports and radar traces. Also it would be a bit unlikely on a trial flight with four people in the plane.
Anyway, all that's beside the point - I was already a fan before my weekend trip, but am even more of one now. The lowest powered ones may have poor take-off performance (never flown one, so can't comment), but the 160hp model doesn't. Had we loaded 4 people and baggage into a Warrior at our high-ish strip (Peyrelevade) on a hot day, I think we'd have finished in the trees.
The wing came of that DR400 because the pilot was doing aerobatics that the aircraft is not cleared for
Anyway, all that's beside the point - I was already a fan before my weekend trip, but am even more of one now. The lowest powered ones may have poor take-off performance (never flown one, so can't comment), but the 160hp model doesn't. Had we loaded 4 people and baggage into a Warrior at our high-ish strip (Peyrelevade) on a hot day, I think we'd have finished in the trees.
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Sorry a&c
Have to agree with CSX in this respect. They ARE groundhogs especially the lower powered versions and especially on grass.
On tarmac you can load any of them to the gills and as long as the runway they will get off and fly as it says on the tin with good performance.
PX had the 160 engine and flies beautiful with it but four up and some fuel and the sloping RWY at Sywell made for a bit of a toecringing experience, despite the POH saying that it works (well it does work but not especially sprightly on the initial acceleration and climb!)
And CSX is right about the spares bit!
FD
Have to agree with CSX in this respect. They ARE groundhogs especially the lower powered versions and especially on grass.
On tarmac you can load any of them to the gills and as long as the runway they will get off and fly as it says on the tin with good performance.
PX had the 160 engine and flies beautiful with it but four up and some fuel and the sloping RWY at Sywell made for a bit of a toecringing experience, despite the POH saying that it works (well it does work but not especially sprightly on the initial acceleration and climb!)
And CSX is right about the spares bit!
FD
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Before calling the Robin a groundhog, please be sure you are comparing like with like.
Thus, if you put 4 people into the lowest powered models you've got to compare that with a 152...4 up!
The lower powered models were only meant as trainers, 2+2 at a push.
Now start comparing the performance of the 160 and 180hp models with a 172, 182, PA-28 even an Arrow and then you'll see the Robin wins!
Best of the bunch must surely be the Jodel d140c Mousquetaire. Payload almost equals empty weight!!!
Thus, if you put 4 people into the lowest powered models you've got to compare that with a 152...4 up!
The lower powered models were only meant as trainers, 2+2 at a push.
Now start comparing the performance of the 160 and 180hp models with a 172, 182, PA-28 even an Arrow and then you'll see the Robin wins!
Best of the bunch must surely be the Jodel d140c Mousquetaire. Payload almost equals empty weight!!!
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DR400
Groundhogs - no way!
It is easy to overload any aircraft that has more seats than the adult backsides it can carry.
I used to instruct on the DR400/ 108 out of Rochester back in the 70's/ 80's. 4 nice squidgy seats. A superb trainer that never caused a flutter on take off (and boy were some of my students larde-asses!! )
Overload it though and its low power will come back sharply into focus.
My 2 year old Regent (180) weighs 635kg empty and grosses at 1100kg. Take off on level tarmac (unfactored) at MAUW is 320 metres.
Try that in a TB!!
I operate it from a farm strip and routinely go out at gross.
Wing failure - Robin deny that poor construction caused the accident and cite 'ten million flying hours without an accident attributable to (poor construction) structural failure'.
As posted before, their stance is that - whilst an examination of the accident aircraft did reveal inadequate bonding in the spar box - tests of the damaged parts confirmed that, despite the inadequacy of the glue joints, the spar still achieved its design strength.
There are a lot of high time Robins in France - some with more than 25,000 hrs on them.
It is also easy for anybody to fail to record all the flying hours in an endeavour to keep the inspection costs down.
It is also easy for club planes to be abused - pulled hard, aerobatted, landed heavily - without report.
There is much speculation about the accident aircraft. It will probably never be fully explained.
The inspection/ remedial work - jury still out on this I reckon. You imagine opening up a long wooden box that has been heavily glued together. In my view - the inspection and repair is likely to compromise the spar strength a lot more than the inadequate bonding that has been found in the accident and others 'either side'.
I may be correct in that the inadequate bonding has been attributed to just one person at the factory all those years ago.
Improved inspection techniques and advances in adhesive technology render this type of occurence a thing of the past.
The Robin is a joy - an absolute joy. Beautifully made by artisans. A bespoke aircraft made just for you - any colour, any panel, any trim - and cheaper than a new spammer.
If anybody out there is thinking about buying a new aircraft - go for the Robin.
If in doubt - get the missus a ride in a Robin or a spammer - I can guarantee the verdict!
HP
It is easy to overload any aircraft that has more seats than the adult backsides it can carry.
I used to instruct on the DR400/ 108 out of Rochester back in the 70's/ 80's. 4 nice squidgy seats. A superb trainer that never caused a flutter on take off (and boy were some of my students larde-asses!! )
Overload it though and its low power will come back sharply into focus.
My 2 year old Regent (180) weighs 635kg empty and grosses at 1100kg. Take off on level tarmac (unfactored) at MAUW is 320 metres.
Try that in a TB!!
I operate it from a farm strip and routinely go out at gross.
Wing failure - Robin deny that poor construction caused the accident and cite 'ten million flying hours without an accident attributable to (poor construction) structural failure'.
As posted before, their stance is that - whilst an examination of the accident aircraft did reveal inadequate bonding in the spar box - tests of the damaged parts confirmed that, despite the inadequacy of the glue joints, the spar still achieved its design strength.
There are a lot of high time Robins in France - some with more than 25,000 hrs on them.
It is also easy for anybody to fail to record all the flying hours in an endeavour to keep the inspection costs down.
It is also easy for club planes to be abused - pulled hard, aerobatted, landed heavily - without report.
There is much speculation about the accident aircraft. It will probably never be fully explained.
The inspection/ remedial work - jury still out on this I reckon. You imagine opening up a long wooden box that has been heavily glued together. In my view - the inspection and repair is likely to compromise the spar strength a lot more than the inadequate bonding that has been found in the accident and others 'either side'.
I may be correct in that the inadequate bonding has been attributed to just one person at the factory all those years ago.
Improved inspection techniques and advances in adhesive technology render this type of occurence a thing of the past.
The Robin is a joy - an absolute joy. Beautifully made by artisans. A bespoke aircraft made just for you - any colour, any panel, any trim - and cheaper than a new spammer.
If anybody out there is thinking about buying a new aircraft - go for the Robin.
If in doubt - get the missus a ride in a Robin or a spammer - I can guarantee the verdict!
HP
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I echo the enthusiasm for the DR400 but there is one thing to watch out for.
Just landed and shut down, reached above and behind me to unlock the canopy BANG! flat on my back. The seat frame had failed.
It's terrribly tempting to lower yourself into the driver's seat with one hand on top of the seat back. Had I a DR400 of my own I'd find some way to stop people doing it. The damage had all the marks of a fatigue crack caused by flexing.
Apart from that, lovely machine!
Mike
Just landed and shut down, reached above and behind me to unlock the canopy BANG! flat on my back. The seat frame had failed.
It's terrribly tempting to lower yourself into the driver's seat with one hand on top of the seat back. Had I a DR400 of my own I'd find some way to stop people doing it. The damage had all the marks of a fatigue crack caused by flexing.
Apart from that, lovely machine!
Mike
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Hi QDM,
1. The trip was a lot of fun. 2 DR400's, 8 people, 12 flying hours each in 3 days, and only a couple of scary moments! (Newly qualified PPL who rotated a fully-laden aircraft just the way he does when he's on his own....
, and another chap who thought he could rescue a ghastly approach into a short strip. Gave me my first ever "I have control" moment as I did the go around for him... )
The English ATC was OK, except for London info, who stressed them... I'm sure the chap who was on duty noticed it was my voice that answered, whether he called me or my friends - but he didn't say anything.
2. My thoughts on DR400 vs D140:
D140 is nicer to fly. Lighter controls, and more responsive. It's better for rough strips, and seems better at high altitude (although I haven't flown the 180hp DR400 to compare). It's got a wider cabin, and better visibility - no painted roof. It's also got a hugely bigger (and separate) luggage compartment - unless you go for the "Abeille" model.
On the other hand, the DR400 is more comfortable, has adjustable seats, doesn't leak in the rain, doesn't have a canopy that is prone to opening in flight if you haven't latched it carefully, has more places for storing maps and assorted junk, goes faster, has disc brakes and has two throttles so you can fly right-handed. It's also much easier to land, although the DR140 is about as easy a tail-dragger as you could hope to fly. You can probably get D400 parts rather more easily than D140.
The clincher for me is that you can put skis on a D140! A friend of mine is selling a particularly nice example, and I'm sorely tempted....
1. The trip was a lot of fun. 2 DR400's, 8 people, 12 flying hours each in 3 days, and only a couple of scary moments! (Newly qualified PPL who rotated a fully-laden aircraft just the way he does when he's on his own....
, and another chap who thought he could rescue a ghastly approach into a short strip. Gave me my first ever "I have control" moment as I did the go around for him... )The English ATC was OK, except for London info, who stressed them... I'm sure the chap who was on duty noticed it was my voice that answered, whether he called me or my friends - but he didn't say anything.
2. My thoughts on DR400 vs D140:
D140 is nicer to fly. Lighter controls, and more responsive. It's better for rough strips, and seems better at high altitude (although I haven't flown the 180hp DR400 to compare). It's got a wider cabin, and better visibility - no painted roof. It's also got a hugely bigger (and separate) luggage compartment - unless you go for the "Abeille" model.
On the other hand, the DR400 is more comfortable, has adjustable seats, doesn't leak in the rain, doesn't have a canopy that is prone to opening in flight if you haven't latched it carefully, has more places for storing maps and assorted junk, goes faster, has disc brakes and has two throttles so you can fly right-handed. It's also much easier to land, although the DR140 is about as easy a tail-dragger as you could hope to fly. You can probably get D400 parts rather more easily than D140.
The clincher for me is that you can put skis on a D140! A friend of mine is selling a particularly nice example, and I'm sorely tempted....
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A late model Jodel D140 for me any day! Or a Robin DR400/180 (One like HP's) I must admit the new 200hp version looks very nice......
As for comments that the Robin series are ground hoggers, try loading a PA28 Cherokee Warrior with 4 adults, what fuel you can get in the tanks before it goes over gross and see how that gets out of a field!
Z526
As for comments that the Robin series are ground hoggers, try loading a PA28 Cherokee Warrior with 4 adults, what fuel you can get in the tanks before it goes over gross and see how that gets out of a field!
Z526
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I am a fan and have a biased opinion, but just for the record: Not too sticky at all. Excellent at short fields, fly one off a farm strip. Pilot mag recently covered the DR400s and I believe mentioned the preference for farm strip flying. Can't remember which issue, my copy is out on loan just for this article. If you would like to know which issue, PM me and I will find out.
As for disc brakes, not always. Canopy that doesn't leak..... I get a wet foot, mind you the bubbles creeping under the canopy tend to cheer up an otherwise disappointing view. Painted roof, not mine.... although this did seem to create some interest at the PFA.
Let me see, anything else to add.... Oh yes, a wonderful, wonderful plane. A joy to fly (flys itself some might say), very forgiving, excellent tourer, wonderful visability, good range, carries 4 plus full fuel plus luggage....... Just lovely.
Darko
As for disc brakes, not always. Canopy that doesn't leak..... I get a wet foot, mind you the bubbles creeping under the canopy tend to cheer up an otherwise disappointing view. Painted roof, not mine.... although this did seem to create some interest at the PFA.
Let me see, anything else to add.... Oh yes, a wonderful, wonderful plane. A joy to fly (flys itself some might say), very forgiving, excellent tourer, wonderful visability, good range, carries 4 plus full fuel plus luggage....... Just lovely.
Darko
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Combien? Too much!
Want to go halves? You can have unlimited access Monday to Friday, I'll have it at weekends. To avoid the aeroplane feeling homesick, we could keep it in a hangar near to Lyon!
Want to go halves? You can have unlimited access Monday to Friday, I'll have it at weekends. To avoid the aeroplane feeling homesick, we could keep it in a hangar near to Lyon!
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Want to go halves? You can have unlimited access Monday to Friday, I'll have it at weekends. To avoid the aeroplane feeling homesick, we could keep it in a hangar near to Lyon!
;-)
David
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