Women in Aviation
High Flying Bird
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Why do these threads always start in a really optimistic manner, with people calmly giving their impressions of how women in aviation stand today ... and then descend into a slanging match within about 3 pages?
If anyone blames PMT, I'll smash 'em in the face.
PMT = Pilot Mediated Tension?
If anyone blames PMT, I'll smash 'em in the face.
PMT = Pilot Mediated Tension?
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I think Fire Dragon was referring to the neurological evidence presented by myself and ignored by Whirlybird because it didn't match her perception of the world.
Not a good trait in either pilot or scientist.
Not a good trait in either pilot or scientist.
The Original Whirly
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Miserlou,
This statement, and a deduction from it that therefore men make better pilots, do not constitute "evidence", merely personal opinion. I'm in complete agreement with Flower with respect to your opinions, so see no reason to waste bandwidth by being repetitive.
Since this thread IS becoming repetitive, perhaps it would be simplest if we agreed to differ.
Unless you you all want to rename it the Let's-get-at-Whirly-Thread....in which case feel free, and I might or might not respond.
Please note the smilies attached to that last sentence.
In a male brain the two sides don't communicate (with each other) as well as a female brain does. The result is that the male brain becomes better at mathematics and technical subjects and is slower in developing language.
Since this thread IS becoming repetitive, perhaps it would be simplest if we agreed to differ.
Unless you you all want to rename it the Let's-get-at-Whirly-Thread....in which case feel free, and I might or might not respond.
Please note the smilies attached to that last sentence.
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Whirlybird
I'm not getting at you, simply stating that it APPEARS that you are 'knowledgeable' on most subjects, (maybe that is a correct perception, or maybe you like to add your 'twopenneth worth').
Whatever the case may, (or may not), be, I re-iterate that I'm simply stating that if someone posts against your arguments, you seem to become agitated, which reflects itself in your response. (Neurological or not, I don't know).
One poster on here states that she is not disagreeing with you, but that you 'part company' on how many times you perceive female discrimination in aviation occurs. She also states that the inability to interpret when you are being wound up makes a statement about that particular person.
My original posting about answering your 'critics' was in anticipation of what answer you may convey to her, (plus a few others).
It may interest you to know that I'm also female. I can count on half of one hand the number of times I've been discriminated against because of this.
It seems to me that it may be the MEN who are having a hard time these days. They are not, (and probably never will be), in the position to blame their sex if their flying comes in for any type of criticism at all.
To Whirlybird again. I've read various posts of yours over a period of time on the subject of being female, and it seems to me that perhaps you are looking in the wrong direction. It's so easy to say "they say/do this because I'm female, and they don't like female aviatiors" etc. etc.
Perhaps you should take a long, hard look at your shortcomings, (and we ALL have them), and ask yourself what the real reason is. AND IT'S NOT BECAUSE YOU'RE PICKED ON BECAUSE YOU'RE A WOMAN.
I'm not getting at you, simply stating that it APPEARS that you are 'knowledgeable' on most subjects, (maybe that is a correct perception, or maybe you like to add your 'twopenneth worth').
Whatever the case may, (or may not), be, I re-iterate that I'm simply stating that if someone posts against your arguments, you seem to become agitated, which reflects itself in your response. (Neurological or not, I don't know).
One poster on here states that she is not disagreeing with you, but that you 'part company' on how many times you perceive female discrimination in aviation occurs. She also states that the inability to interpret when you are being wound up makes a statement about that particular person.
My original posting about answering your 'critics' was in anticipation of what answer you may convey to her, (plus a few others).
It may interest you to know that I'm also female. I can count on half of one hand the number of times I've been discriminated against because of this.
It seems to me that it may be the MEN who are having a hard time these days. They are not, (and probably never will be), in the position to blame their sex if their flying comes in for any type of criticism at all.
To Whirlybird again. I've read various posts of yours over a period of time on the subject of being female, and it seems to me that perhaps you are looking in the wrong direction. It's so easy to say "they say/do this because I'm female, and they don't like female aviatiors" etc. etc.
Perhaps you should take a long, hard look at your shortcomings, (and we ALL have them), and ask yourself what the real reason is. AND IT'S NOT BECAUSE YOU'RE PICKED ON BECAUSE YOU'RE A WOMAN.
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hello, it's me again... the starter of this thread 
It's a pity it's turned into a big negative discussion between men and women in flying. There were some positive but many more negative experiences reported, also from me. And too many fly-guys think we are treading in their domain. Sorry guys... just move over
In my first posting I asked also for reports on how you, as a woman flying, manage to adjust family matters and does hubby also fly... not many answers on that.
When I started out, my kids were 10 and 8.. I started flying with power gliders and, weighing only about 47 kg (yeh, go cry... ) I always had to carry lead weights with me when I flew solo. I'll never forget what my son said after my check flight: "now your lead weights have gotten legs!"
he meant himself, of course, since I could now take him along! Both kids started glider training when they were old enough, but they both dropped out of it... pity. Now I'm about to become a grandma (oh my gosh!! am I that old?).
Maybe we should have a forum section for women, and if it's just to exchange such experiences or ask other women how they managed. As always, suggestions always appreciated!
Westy
It's a pity it's turned into a big negative discussion between men and women in flying. There were some positive but many more negative experiences reported, also from me. And too many fly-guys think we are treading in their domain. Sorry guys... just move over
In my first posting I asked also for reports on how you, as a woman flying, manage to adjust family matters and does hubby also fly... not many answers on that.
When I started out, my kids were 10 and 8.. I started flying with power gliders and, weighing only about 47 kg (yeh, go cry... ) I always had to carry lead weights with me when I flew solo. I'll never forget what my son said after my check flight: "now your lead weights have gotten legs!"
he meant himself, of course, since I could now take him along! Both kids started glider training when they were old enough, but they both dropped out of it... pity. Now I'm about to become a grandma (oh my gosh!! am I that old?). Maybe we should have a forum section for women, and if it's just to exchange such experiences or ask other women how they managed. As always, suggestions always appreciated!
Westy
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Westy,
I have to say I disagree with you , from what I can see there are many more positive comments than negative.
A separate womens section actually creates division when I thought the whole point we are trying to make is that we should all be the same. I will never understand the need for separate womens groups , when people are shouting that they want equality why oh why do they look to make themselves different.
We are people in aviation surely that is a common enough bond for us.
I have to say I disagree with you , from what I can see there are many more positive comments than negative.
A separate womens section actually creates division when I thought the whole point we are trying to make is that we should all be the same. I will never understand the need for separate womens groups , when people are shouting that they want equality why oh why do they look to make themselves different.
We are people in aviation surely that is a common enough bond for us.
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hi flower,
yes, in some ways you're right... we are (hopefully) equal... but I know from other women and other forums there is often a need to share "typical" female problems ( and I don't mean that monthly one!!).
For example: in a German pilots forum some women asked about life as an airline pilots wife.... some very specific questions were asked from a young wife and mother.....and since the divorce rate is pretty high among airline pilots (at least the last I heard), then this could be a chance to find contact to someone who understands. Such threads would just get lost in the maze of threads here otherwise.
And, as mentioned before, sharing methods of managing flying and family.
We are, or should be, equal... but there are still things that are more a problem for women then men... I hope I could make myself clearer.
I am against women getting a job to fill a quota...they should get it on qualification only!! The thought that I may have gotten my job just because I'm a woman I think is dreadful!! What I'm saying is, this should not be about men vs. women, but just simply women in aviation...
Sorry to ramble... just found out that a glider pilot crashed and got killed not far from here a few hours ago... don't know yet what happened... the accident statistic is not too good this year I'm afraid... so, in some ways there are really more important issues at hand... and what we should really work toward is making flying safer !!!
Westy
yes, in some ways you're right... we are (hopefully) equal... but I know from other women and other forums there is often a need to share "typical" female problems ( and I don't mean that monthly one!!).
For example: in a German pilots forum some women asked about life as an airline pilots wife.... some very specific questions were asked from a young wife and mother.....and since the divorce rate is pretty high among airline pilots (at least the last I heard), then this could be a chance to find contact to someone who understands. Such threads would just get lost in the maze of threads here otherwise.
And, as mentioned before, sharing methods of managing flying and family.
We are, or should be, equal... but there are still things that are more a problem for women then men... I hope I could make myself clearer.
I am against women getting a job to fill a quota...they should get it on qualification only!! The thought that I may have gotten my job just because I'm a woman I think is dreadful!! What I'm saying is, this should not be about men vs. women, but just simply women in aviation...
Sorry to ramble... just found out that a glider pilot crashed and got killed not far from here a few hours ago... don't know yet what happened... the accident statistic is not too good this year I'm afraid... so, in some ways there are really more important issues at hand... and what we should really work toward is making flying safer !!!
Westy
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More positive comments, as Flower thinks? Or more negative, as Westy says?
I decided to find out. I went through the thread, reading the first post by each female contributor who discussed personal experiences. I felt we hadn't quite defined what we meant by positive and negative, but I decided "negative" would be any post describing what the individual perceived as discrimination against women. "Positive" would be where she hadn't perceived any. How people reacted to it, whether it annoyed them, or they ignored it, or whatever, is irrelevant in this instance. So are opinions not related to actual personal experiences. Sometimes it wasn't obvious which "side" people were on, and if I've misunderstood anyone, my apologies. I also apologise if I've left anyone out. But FWIW, here are the results as they appear to me:
Flower - positive
Whirly - negative
Westy - negative
PFLs Again - negative
flying femme - positive
pink_aviator - positive
maflsc - negative
redsnail - negative
Airbus Girl - negative
Cessnababe - negative
maggioneato - positive
HelenD - positive
Pipergirl - positive
Aerbabe - negative
flyin' shark - positive
That makes 7 "positives" and 8 "negatives".
Hmmm...now what does that prove?
I decided to find out. I went through the thread, reading the first post by each female contributor who discussed personal experiences. I felt we hadn't quite defined what we meant by positive and negative, but I decided "negative" would be any post describing what the individual perceived as discrimination against women. "Positive" would be where she hadn't perceived any. How people reacted to it, whether it annoyed them, or they ignored it, or whatever, is irrelevant in this instance. So are opinions not related to actual personal experiences. Sometimes it wasn't obvious which "side" people were on, and if I've misunderstood anyone, my apologies. I also apologise if I've left anyone out. But FWIW, here are the results as they appear to me:
Flower - positive
Whirly - negative
Westy - negative
PFLs Again - negative
flying femme - positive
pink_aviator - positive
maflsc - negative
redsnail - negative
Airbus Girl - negative
Cessnababe - negative
maggioneato - positive
HelenD - positive
Pipergirl - positive
Aerbabe - negative
flyin' shark - positive
That makes 7 "positives" and 8 "negatives".
Hmmm...now what does that prove?
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Well, it doesn't prove anything! Any statistics can be massaged or interpreted to support any argument you care to adopt. What really matters is subjective experience. If you experience prejudice, then for you there is prejudice regardless of how many other people have only had positive experiences.
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Well, I'm not really offended to have been missed out. 
Charlie is short for something feminine, honest!
I do sympathise with FireDragon's frustration. It would be nice to see genuinely stated contrary points of view debated, rather than being simply ignored.
I have always felt rather frustrated by women who seem to fall quickly back on to the gender card whenever faced with a challenge. I sense that others do not share that concern.
Still, boring thread now that the main protagonists have simply elected to dig trenches and stop talking.
Charlotte (but prefers Charlie) -A Girl, for those who are compiling survey results-
Charlie is short for something feminine, honest! I do sympathise with FireDragon's frustration. It would be nice to see genuinely stated contrary points of view debated, rather than being simply ignored.
I have always felt rather frustrated by women who seem to fall quickly back on to the gender card whenever faced with a challenge. I sense that others do not share that concern.
Still, boring thread now that the main protagonists have simply elected to dig trenches and stop talking.
Charlotte (but prefers Charlie) -A Girl, for those who are compiling survey results-
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Well Whirly,
It may be personal opinion but I was only going on the word of nueroanatomist Laura Allen in the course of her work at UCLA. Her work is science, thus her findings must be scientific evidence.
I would also direct you to an article by Bennett and Shaywitz, 'Sex Differences in the Functional Organization of the Brain for Language', Nature, 1995, 373, 607-9, which offers the first evidence in the different brain patterns with regard to gender with the then brand new MRI technology.
Steve Biddulph also includes a short chapter, 'How Boys' and Girls' Brains Differ' in his book Raising Boys.
Where Biddulph falls short (though his book is not a scientific work as such) is his failure to record the difference in the habits of play of children aged 3-18 but points out that these differences are-
'only slight for most people;
are only tendencies;
don't apply to every individual;
and..... we don't have to accept them as limitations.'
You don't have to further than the nearest kindergarten or school to see how marked the natural gender differences are and that is the reason there aren't more women in aviation.
Would you like to comment?
It may be personal opinion but I was only going on the word of nueroanatomist Laura Allen in the course of her work at UCLA. Her work is science, thus her findings must be scientific evidence.
I would also direct you to an article by Bennett and Shaywitz, 'Sex Differences in the Functional Organization of the Brain for Language', Nature, 1995, 373, 607-9, which offers the first evidence in the different brain patterns with regard to gender with the then brand new MRI technology.
Steve Biddulph also includes a short chapter, 'How Boys' and Girls' Brains Differ' in his book Raising Boys.
Where Biddulph falls short (though his book is not a scientific work as such) is his failure to record the difference in the habits of play of children aged 3-18 but points out that these differences are-
'only slight for most people;
are only tendencies;
don't apply to every individual;
and..... we don't have to accept them as limitations.'
You don't have to further than the nearest kindergarten or school to see how marked the natural gender differences are and that is the reason there aren't more women in aviation.
Would you like to comment?
PINKS WORLD THROUGH ROSE COLOURED SPECS
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I'LL LIGHTEN THIS UP A LITTLE
Pinkser is not very good at good constructive aurguments or debates even
(gets tongue tied and says grand sweeping statements, that she cant always back up on the spot )
BUT have a spare minuit ,and thought i'd post in stead of just reading.
I do not know what has happened to me,but
I have spent all my life in ribbons and curls,frills and flounces,pastel and pinks.
I've ,also enjoyed it, and perhaps because of the feeling of "being looked after" alowances made for "being a girl" (sorry girls, i did enjoy it all )
and enjoying playing with real babies, have had my femine side reinforced,(if that makes sense)
So never really thought about going into any thing "male dominated"
"but of course if my girly ways hadn't been incouraged in the first place ,who knows etc etc"
Why then suddenly, have i been drawn to aviation,something that i definatly felt was for men (because i thought men were cleverer(do not shout girls ,i have changed my views on that now)
Initially , curiosity wanting to see if i could achieve "something men could do"
but now I am well on course to may be achieving it , I'm thinking to myself ,
"Well if I can do it it can't be that hard after all, so men are not so clever"
This of course could again be because "men" have made me believe i am only good ehough at the domestic bits.
oh well ,had my say .
do not know if i said any thing relevant, or if i completly lost the plot,or if i made any sense , but i did warm you , and i am a girl ,so should feel welcome on this thread.
PINKSTER
PINK-AVIATOR
(gets tongue tied and says grand sweeping statements, that she cant always back up on the spot )
BUT have a spare minuit ,and thought i'd post in stead of just reading.
I do not know what has happened to me,but
I have spent all my life in ribbons and curls,frills and flounces,pastel and pinks.
I've ,also enjoyed it, and perhaps because of the feeling of "being looked after" alowances made for "being a girl" (sorry girls, i did enjoy it all )
and enjoying playing with real babies, have had my femine side reinforced,(if that makes sense)
So never really thought about going into any thing "male dominated"
"but of course if my girly ways hadn't been incouraged in the first place ,who knows etc etc"
Why then suddenly, have i been drawn to aviation,something that i definatly felt was for men (because i thought men were cleverer(do not shout girls ,i have changed my views on that now)
Initially , curiosity wanting to see if i could achieve "something men could do"
but now I am well on course to may be achieving it , I'm thinking to myself ,
"Well if I can do it it can't be that hard after all, so men are not so clever"
This of course could again be because "men" have made me believe i am only good ehough at the domestic bits.
oh well ,had my say .
do not know if i said any thing relevant, or if i completly lost the plot,or if i made any sense , but i did warm you , and i am a girl ,so should feel welcome on this thread.
PINKSTER
PINK-AVIATOR
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Flower.
I completely agree with the statement you've made about not separating the girls from the boys; how will we ever attain true equality when we ourselves put up the barriers?
For the same reason, I would never elect to join organisations such as the BWPA - it's just more segregation. You don't have a B M(ens) PA for Gods sake.
CSX001
Strange, she's left me out of her list as well! (and as stated earlier, I'm a girl!). Any genuine 'survey' would list ALL contenders, regardless of whether or not they have upset Whirlybird.
Anyway, couldn't agree more with your definition of why this thread has become boring. The trench has been well and truely dug by the main propegator of the subject, I think.
FD
I completely agree with the statement you've made about not separating the girls from the boys; how will we ever attain true equality when we ourselves put up the barriers?
For the same reason, I would never elect to join organisations such as the BWPA - it's just more segregation. You don't have a B M(ens) PA for Gods sake.
CSX001
Strange, she's left me out of her list as well! (and as stated earlier, I'm a girl!). Any genuine 'survey' would list ALL contenders, regardless of whether or not they have upset Whirlybird.
Anyway, couldn't agree more with your definition of why this thread has become boring. The trench has been well and truely dug by the main propegator of the subject, I think.
FD
The Original Whirly
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pink_aviator,
EXTREMELY relevant, and very well put, as are a number of the things you say. So now you can stop apologising and saying you don't know anything. 
Miserlou,
I assumed you had got your comments on brain differences from somewhere, but thank you for the details. However, that is not NECESSARILY the reason for there being less women in aviation. It might be, but that is only your opinion. It does not PROVE it; there are too many other variables. I would like to quote from a recent BWPA newsletter:
When the Gloucestershire Group, including my two fellow female flying instructors and me, ran two days of trial lessons for women by women as part of the BWPA's Women in the Air 2000 fundraising campaign, I was amazed at the number of women who said they had come along simply because, although they liked the idea of flying, they had previously thought that aviation was a male-only environment. Some of them then went on to train for their PPLs.
Could this not possibly also be a reason?
CSX001,
Sorry to have missed you out. I guess that makes the "score" 50/50.
Contrary points of view debated? Westy asked about people's EXPERIENCES, which is what most of us were writing about. You can't really debate experiences. I have experienced incidents that seemed to be prejudice; you have not. That is interesting, but how do we debate it? Whether some people perceive things incorrectly is a different issue, as is how one reacts to prejudice or any other kind of treatment. Those can be debated. Those of us who first responded to Westy's thread may or may not wish to discuss them. On the whole I personally don't...although I can often get drawn into discussions if you keep on at me long enough. (note smilies!!!!) However,
That probably does happen sometimes. But that fact does not mean that prejudice does not sometimes exist. A number of the women who reported prejudice are professional pilots and instructors. They don't seem to have given up on challenges, do they? And "fallen back quickly"? That's an assumption on your part. I have at times assumed everything else, before realising that prejudice against women was the only other answer. Or I've been told it straight out, as have others...I don't want to quote too many times, but some of these have been reported here.
Why are you at such pains to insist that our perceptions are wrong? We're not saying that yours are. People have different experiences in aviation, as in life. Why is that a problem?
EXTREMELY relevant, and very well put, as are a number of the things you say. So now you can stop apologising and saying you don't know anything.
Miserlou,
I assumed you had got your comments on brain differences from somewhere, but thank you for the details. However, that is not NECESSARILY the reason for there being less women in aviation. It might be, but that is only your opinion. It does not PROVE it; there are too many other variables. I would like to quote from a recent BWPA newsletter:
When the Gloucestershire Group, including my two fellow female flying instructors and me, ran two days of trial lessons for women by women as part of the BWPA's Women in the Air 2000 fundraising campaign, I was amazed at the number of women who said they had come along simply because, although they liked the idea of flying, they had previously thought that aviation was a male-only environment. Some of them then went on to train for their PPLs.
Could this not possibly also be a reason?
CSX001,
Sorry to have missed you out. I guess that makes the "score" 50/50.
Contrary points of view debated? Westy asked about people's EXPERIENCES, which is what most of us were writing about. You can't really debate experiences. I have experienced incidents that seemed to be prejudice; you have not. That is interesting, but how do we debate it? Whether some people perceive things incorrectly is a different issue, as is how one reacts to prejudice or any other kind of treatment. Those can be debated. Those of us who first responded to Westy's thread may or may not wish to discuss them. On the whole I personally don't...although I can often get drawn into discussions if you keep on at me long enough.
(note smilies!!!!) However,
I have always felt rather frustrated by women who seem to fall quickly back on to the gender card whenever faced with a challenge.
Why are you at such pains to insist that our perceptions are wrong? We're not saying that yours are. People have different experiences in aviation, as in life. Why is that a problem?
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I love your use of the Royal "we" in that last paragraph Whirlybird! I wasn't aware of being in a minority of one against "your" viewpoint. It gives a real, although undeserved sense of my intruding on "your" forum. A prize you might justifiably claim by volume of posts. Where do you find the time?
I also love the suggestion that we are not here to debate. The world is a poorer place if all we do is state points of view, and become unresponsive when questioned about them by those with differing experiences.
Proving that other people with differing experiences are wrong is not a reasonable objective, but finding out why people have different experiences, and whether it reflects on their approach to life in general is a reasonable goal.
Through the volume of your participation on Pprune you voluntarily give us the benefit of a large window on your life, views, experiences and prejudices. If I draw one thing from all of that, it is that nobody "wins" in any dialogue with you. You simply talk at them until they go away or get bored.
You win.
Charlie, one female pilot who now feels closer than ever to her male workmates.
I also love the suggestion that we are not here to debate. The world is a poorer place if all we do is state points of view, and become unresponsive when questioned about them by those with differing experiences.
Proving that other people with differing experiences are wrong is not a reasonable objective, but finding out why people have different experiences, and whether it reflects on their approach to life in general is a reasonable goal.
Through the volume of your participation on Pprune you voluntarily give us the benefit of a large window on your life, views, experiences and prejudices. If I draw one thing from all of that, it is that nobody "wins" in any dialogue with you. You simply talk at them until they go away or get bored.
You win.
Charlie, one female pilot who now feels closer than ever to her male workmates.
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Charlie, you have hit the nail on the head.
There appears to be little point in trying to harvest any meaningful discussion / exchange of views on this thread anymore, because the main contender just prattles on.
Whirlybird. You are obviously an intelligent woman - it would be interesting to have a proper debate with you on why you perceive being that being female has been a bone of contention.
I'm sure you could comply in a logical fashion, rather than, (which has been said), talk us all to death, (or ignore us, if you don't like the way the tone of the 'debate' is going).
The gauntlet is laid down.....
There appears to be little point in trying to harvest any meaningful discussion / exchange of views on this thread anymore, because the main contender just prattles on.
Whirlybird. You are obviously an intelligent woman - it would be interesting to have a proper debate with you on why you perceive being that being female has been a bone of contention.
I'm sure you could comply in a logical fashion, rather than, (which has been said), talk us all to death, (or ignore us, if you don't like the way the tone of the 'debate' is going).
The gauntlet is laid down.....
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My view
Like many others I have been reading this thread with interest and have now decided it's time for me to post a reply.
I can honestly say that I have never had a negative experience in aviation - solely as a result of my gender. This is not to say that I have never been at the receiving end of what some would perceive as negative comments. I have heard all the usual remarks such as "does your Dad fly?" (no the only time my Dad has ever been in a light aircraft was when I took him up after I got my licence) "Are you learning to fly?" (assuming that I must be learning rather than have a licence), and all the other common assumptions already mentioned in this thread.
I could not however, attribute all of these remarks to the fact that I am female. When I first began having flying lessons I was 14 and at the time I often credited people's disbelief and assumptions to my young age rather than my sex. 10 years later and with the benefit of hindsight, this may not always have been the thought behind some comments, but rather than discouraging me, it did the opposite and encouraged me to not only pursue success in my flying and subsequent career in aviation, but to also promote aviation to young people (male and female alike) as a career opportunity that was equally available to all. I didn't take any comments I received personally and felt that they were just a indication of social conditioning at the time. I felt and still feel that the only way to change this situation is for more and more females to get involved in all aspects of aviation and prevent the gender issue being an issue at all.
My only worry is that, by its very nature threads like this and separate womens organisations will continue to foster segregation rather than prevent it. That being said I am a member of the BWPA and the Air League - both catering for my needs as a young female pilot. I did not join the BWPA because I wanted to become a member of a pilots sorority but because of the advice and membership benefits it could offer.
I apologise for my rambling but to go back to my original thought. I believe a comment can be either negative or positive depending on what the receiver perceives it to be. In my case I never considered any comments I received to be negative and in fact turned them into a positive. Other women may have felt differently. In fact just last week after stepping out of the aircraft after an IMC lesson, my instructor stopped to speak to a very experienced pilot on the apron. This gentlemen made the comment "ah good good I see another lady pilot is coming on board - how many hours have you got dear?" Now I could either take this negatively, the gentlemen in question obviously assumed I was still learning rather than have a licence - or I could take it as a positive (as I did), that he, although in a rather backhanded manner was trying to be encouraging, something that perhaps wouldn't have happened in the past. I would like to believe that he would have shown similar encouragement to anyone he came across on the apron - not just because I was young and female.
Until women in aviation is the norm rather than the exception, then these assumptions will persist. I do believe that with every generation things will improve but at the end of the day social constructions will continue to exist albeit in a diluted form in the future. Some people will say that some women are just not interested in aviation like men are - but the question needs to be asked, is this because of the lack of awareness in women rather than a lack of desire or because women are put off becoming involved in aviation because of preconceived ideas about other peoples perceptions? Whatever the reason is, this can only be resolved when all matters aviation are available and are pursued by all. When there is no division of gender or perceived division, then and only then can it be analysed as to whether most women are genuinly just not interested or have been prevented from becoming involved for other reasons related to gender. Education is the key to making informed decisions and hopefully by arming young people with education and instilling ambition and belief that they can do anything they want to do in to them - then this will break the mould.
I live in hope that one day this may be the case.
WO79
I can honestly say that I have never had a negative experience in aviation - solely as a result of my gender. This is not to say that I have never been at the receiving end of what some would perceive as negative comments. I have heard all the usual remarks such as "does your Dad fly?" (no the only time my Dad has ever been in a light aircraft was when I took him up after I got my licence) "Are you learning to fly?" (assuming that I must be learning rather than have a licence), and all the other common assumptions already mentioned in this thread.
I could not however, attribute all of these remarks to the fact that I am female. When I first began having flying lessons I was 14 and at the time I often credited people's disbelief and assumptions to my young age rather than my sex. 10 years later and with the benefit of hindsight, this may not always have been the thought behind some comments, but rather than discouraging me, it did the opposite and encouraged me to not only pursue success in my flying and subsequent career in aviation, but to also promote aviation to young people (male and female alike) as a career opportunity that was equally available to all. I didn't take any comments I received personally and felt that they were just a indication of social conditioning at the time. I felt and still feel that the only way to change this situation is for more and more females to get involved in all aspects of aviation and prevent the gender issue being an issue at all.
My only worry is that, by its very nature threads like this and separate womens organisations will continue to foster segregation rather than prevent it. That being said I am a member of the BWPA and the Air League - both catering for my needs as a young female pilot. I did not join the BWPA because I wanted to become a member of a pilots sorority but because of the advice and membership benefits it could offer.
I apologise for my rambling but to go back to my original thought. I believe a comment can be either negative or positive depending on what the receiver perceives it to be. In my case I never considered any comments I received to be negative and in fact turned them into a positive. Other women may have felt differently. In fact just last week after stepping out of the aircraft after an IMC lesson, my instructor stopped to speak to a very experienced pilot on the apron. This gentlemen made the comment "ah good good I see another lady pilot is coming on board - how many hours have you got dear?" Now I could either take this negatively, the gentlemen in question obviously assumed I was still learning rather than have a licence - or I could take it as a positive (as I did), that he, although in a rather backhanded manner was trying to be encouraging, something that perhaps wouldn't have happened in the past. I would like to believe that he would have shown similar encouragement to anyone he came across on the apron - not just because I was young and female.
Until women in aviation is the norm rather than the exception, then these assumptions will persist. I do believe that with every generation things will improve but at the end of the day social constructions will continue to exist albeit in a diluted form in the future. Some people will say that some women are just not interested in aviation like men are - but the question needs to be asked, is this because of the lack of awareness in women rather than a lack of desire or because women are put off becoming involved in aviation because of preconceived ideas about other peoples perceptions? Whatever the reason is, this can only be resolved when all matters aviation are available and are pursued by all. When there is no division of gender or perceived division, then and only then can it be analysed as to whether most women are genuinly just not interested or have been prevented from becoming involved for other reasons related to gender. Education is the key to making informed decisions and hopefully by arming young people with education and instilling ambition and belief that they can do anything they want to do in to them - then this will break the mould.
I live in hope that one day this may be the case.
WO79
Join Date: Aug 2001
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CSX,
How very eloquently put!
I think you hit the nail on the head with:
As you say some people confuse logorrhoea with substance!
FD
How very eloquently put!
I think you hit the nail on the head with:
nobody "wins" in any dialogue with you. You simply talk at them until they go away or get bored.
FD
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
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What would you have me do?
Whirlybird:
You seem to have such a lot to say on every subject, but I notice now your 'back is to the wall', you have suddenly declined to answer back.
You seem to have such a lot to say on every subject, but I notice now your 'back is to the wall', you have suddenly declined to answer back.
nobody "wins" in any dialogue with you. You simply talk at them until they go away or get bored.
There appears to be little point in trying to harvest any meaningful discussion / exchange of views on this thread anymore, because the main contender just prattles on
What would you have me do? I am confused. I was going to leave this thread, but came back when people appeared to be annoyed at my leaving questions unanswered. Now you want me to go away. Fine; I'll do that. Whatever you post, I won't answer; you are welcome to have the last word, to win if that's how you see it. I don't care, and that is the truth. I'm not annoyed, or needing to chill out; I just don't know what else to do. I just honestly don't know what I've done to upset you both. Firedragon, my apologies for leaving you off the List. It wasn't meant to be a survey as such. Westy and Flower were discussing whether there were more positive or more negative experiences; I just decided to count them. As far as I was aware, you hadn't posted any actual experiences. If you did, and I missed them, I'm sorry. If I annoyed you by missing you off anyway, I'm also sorry. I really mean that. I thought it might lighten the thread a little, doing that count. I was wrong.
Finally, I've in no way intended to imply that all my experiences in aviation have been bad, or that everyone has been prejudiced against me or against women in general. Far from it! I love flying, aviation has changed my life TOTALLY POSITIVELY, got a me a new career, and more people than I can count have helped me...that includes both men and women. But there were some exceptions to that. I simply decided to write about them on a thread where they were relevant.
I had no intention of hijacking this thread either, so now I'll leave. I probably won't come back to this thread at all actually. I hope that's OK with all of you.
Enjoy your flying, and maybe see you on another thread.
A very confused WHIRLY