Women in Aviation
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Dudes,
I have a female instructor, she's ace, in fact one of the best instructors I've had. She's caring, non-judgemental and disciplined enough to make you get the job done.
Men are undoubtedly different from wimmin, but how that makes them unfit for any occupation is beyond me, most women pilots (and I'm talking about instructors here, as they’re the only sort I've met) are professional, courteous and conscientious, unlike some male instructors I’ve had. Surely any such arguments as to gender suitability to a given occupation are nonsense.
Oh yeah, on a purely sexist note, my instructor's also a total babe, which makes flying EVEN better! (Sorry, it's a man thing).
I have a female instructor, she's ace, in fact one of the best instructors I've had. She's caring, non-judgemental and disciplined enough to make you get the job done.
Men are undoubtedly different from wimmin, but how that makes them unfit for any occupation is beyond me, most women pilots (and I'm talking about instructors here, as they’re the only sort I've met) are professional, courteous and conscientious, unlike some male instructors I’ve had. Surely any such arguments as to gender suitability to a given occupation are nonsense.
Oh yeah, on a purely sexist note, my instructor's also a total babe, which makes flying EVEN better! (Sorry, it's a man thing).
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Just looked back at the length of this and gulped!
I really don't understand why reactions to Whirlybird have been quite so angry and persecutory. She hasn't personally insulted anyone, just voiced strong viewpoints. I've noticed before that this particular subject is close to her heart, but that's OK, isn't it? It's close to mine too - how couldn't it be?
I don't understand in general why people are upset by minorities discussing where they occur difficulties, or how they can draw themselves out of the minority. I work with a lot of people who, nationwide, are classed as ethnic minorities and I sometimes feel excluded by discussions about their ethnicity, or challenged as a white woman when they feel there is discrimination which I don't recognise immediately. But this doesn't make me angry.
Much work has been done over the past few decades by women - and men in different ways - to adjust gender perceptions and broaden opportunities for everyone. This has made such a world of difference in such a short space of time that I feel sometimes that we have yet to adjust. However, there's no doubt either that, having set down this road, there is no room for complacency so soon. Look at all the Nick Horby-type books about men who feel redundant or inadequate now that women have changed their own roles.
I think that some of us who are younger perhaps don't identify pressures that we feel with the vast shift that feminism imposed on us all and this is what leads to complaints in young women about trying to establish two 'polar' camps. Trying to fill quotas is not ideal, of course, but how else are inequalities to be addressed? One day we will be able to do without, and that will be fantastic! Better to think too much about overcoming problems than not at all - at least that way people learn to challenge established assumptions.
These are hugely complex issues; they simply can't be summed up in a Daily Mail-esque pronouncement about common sense, or whatever. No one can be objective enough to attribute what they feel it might be to be a woman or a man into EITHER these famous 'biological' differences OR the handing down of values from centuries of unfair exclusion. Otherwise anorexia would be either 100% female or half and half, for example.
As for aviation. I have actually been surprised and relieved by the largely universal respect I have received, as I began this adventure crippled by a lack of confidence and part of this was being too aware of my age and gender. That said, two fellow (male) students in a row astonished me recently by commenting on how difficult they found it that I had succeeded before them (which had nothing to do with our respective talent OR our age OR our gender - it was just the way it worked out). I find that interesting.
I want my message to be positive because it would be unfair to imply that I've had a negative experience in the flying world (other than the snotty boy on the Cabair desk!). However, I will, for a laugh, relay one truly classic anecdote from when I went along to that Flyer pilot training fair thingy with a friend (who was male) in tow for moral support. I approached the man from GAPAN for any advice he might like to offer. Firstly he looked at my friend and said 'So you want to be a pilot then?'. When corrected, he looked taken aback but then commented: 'Ah, well, then, you know what they say. It takes three things to succeed in this game: talent, toughness or tits.'
He was an older guy, and I wouldn't imagine someone closer to my own age being blatently coarse and sexist like that. It did, however, leave my friend and me doing goldfish impressions for a few seconds, which is surely a good sign!
I really don't understand why reactions to Whirlybird have been quite so angry and persecutory. She hasn't personally insulted anyone, just voiced strong viewpoints. I've noticed before that this particular subject is close to her heart, but that's OK, isn't it? It's close to mine too - how couldn't it be?
I don't understand in general why people are upset by minorities discussing where they occur difficulties, or how they can draw themselves out of the minority. I work with a lot of people who, nationwide, are classed as ethnic minorities and I sometimes feel excluded by discussions about their ethnicity, or challenged as a white woman when they feel there is discrimination which I don't recognise immediately. But this doesn't make me angry.
Much work has been done over the past few decades by women - and men in different ways - to adjust gender perceptions and broaden opportunities for everyone. This has made such a world of difference in such a short space of time that I feel sometimes that we have yet to adjust. However, there's no doubt either that, having set down this road, there is no room for complacency so soon. Look at all the Nick Horby-type books about men who feel redundant or inadequate now that women have changed their own roles.
I think that some of us who are younger perhaps don't identify pressures that we feel with the vast shift that feminism imposed on us all and this is what leads to complaints in young women about trying to establish two 'polar' camps. Trying to fill quotas is not ideal, of course, but how else are inequalities to be addressed? One day we will be able to do without, and that will be fantastic! Better to think too much about overcoming problems than not at all - at least that way people learn to challenge established assumptions.
These are hugely complex issues; they simply can't be summed up in a Daily Mail-esque pronouncement about common sense, or whatever. No one can be objective enough to attribute what they feel it might be to be a woman or a man into EITHER these famous 'biological' differences OR the handing down of values from centuries of unfair exclusion. Otherwise anorexia would be either 100% female or half and half, for example.
As for aviation. I have actually been surprised and relieved by the largely universal respect I have received, as I began this adventure crippled by a lack of confidence and part of this was being too aware of my age and gender. That said, two fellow (male) students in a row astonished me recently by commenting on how difficult they found it that I had succeeded before them (which had nothing to do with our respective talent OR our age OR our gender - it was just the way it worked out). I find that interesting.
I want my message to be positive because it would be unfair to imply that I've had a negative experience in the flying world (other than the snotty boy on the Cabair desk!). However, I will, for a laugh, relay one truly classic anecdote from when I went along to that Flyer pilot training fair thingy with a friend (who was male) in tow for moral support. I approached the man from GAPAN for any advice he might like to offer. Firstly he looked at my friend and said 'So you want to be a pilot then?'. When corrected, he looked taken aback but then commented: 'Ah, well, then, you know what they say. It takes three things to succeed in this game: talent, toughness or tits.'
He was an older guy, and I wouldn't imagine someone closer to my own age being blatently coarse and sexist like that. It did, however, leave my friend and me doing goldfish impressions for a few seconds, which is surely a good sign!
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Good post Penguina
I don't think anybody is seeking to make "angry and persecutary" attacks on Whirlybird.
She is a vociferous and opinionated poster who does not hesitate to contradict others, and this will naturally result in her getting contradicted back. This is something that she clearly has a problem with, and this has not been the only post in which she has encountered difficulties. This is a shame, but it is life.
Trying to discern people's real personalities from their online personae is a dangerous game. If Whirly is in real life, as she comes across online, it is not difficult to see why she might bring out the worst in a certain type of man... which she may in turn see as discrimination or persecution.
It is a two way street, as the old cliche goes.
Charlie.
I don't think anybody is seeking to make "angry and persecutary" attacks on Whirlybird.
She is a vociferous and opinionated poster who does not hesitate to contradict others, and this will naturally result in her getting contradicted back. This is something that she clearly has a problem with, and this has not been the only post in which she has encountered difficulties. This is a shame, but it is life.
Trying to discern people's real personalities from their online personae is a dangerous game. If Whirly is in real life, as she comes across online, it is not difficult to see why she might bring out the worst in a certain type of man... which she may in turn see as discrimination or persecution.
It is a two way street, as the old cliche goes.
Charlie.
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robs 2 cents
I don't have time to read all yhe replys so I will put my 2 cents worth in any way.
to start with yes i am a bloke .
But my experience is that we have two types of women aviators, A woman trying to prove herself in a mans world. usually (I won't say b****)
) but a bit hard to get along with, althought a good pilot, and the other is what I term as one of the boys. She is usually a top person(chick, girl, whatever) GREAT pilot and fantastic to work with.
Two examples I can note are One instructor I once knew in Perth who had me in stiches of laughter with the quote about the aeroclub" that place has more bars in there then a pornographic book shop". I do miss working with her.
The other was a student Exelent pilot and good learner.
So no as a male pilot I don't think its a mans world. But maybe I should say something sexist shouldn't I
?
to start with yes i am a bloke .
But my experience is that we have two types of women aviators, A woman trying to prove herself in a mans world. usually (I won't say b****)
) but a bit hard to get along with, althought a good pilot, and the other is what I term as one of the boys. She is usually a top person(chick, girl, whatever) GREAT pilot and fantastic to work with.Two examples I can note are One instructor I once knew in Perth who had me in stiches of laughter with the quote about the aeroclub" that place has more bars in there then a pornographic book shop". I do miss working with her.
The other was a student Exelent pilot and good learner.
So no as a male pilot I don't think its a mans world. But maybe I should say something sexist shouldn't I
?
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Firedragon. Keep your personal thoughts about someone else to yourself and not on this thread. Your points may be valid but out of place here.
BRL.
BRL.
Last edited by BRL; 30th Jul 2003 at 22:09.
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Please don't turn this into a Whirly bashing thread.
Its a pretty interesting insight to how people feel about a tricky subject in aviation.
Anymore of this and I will simply bin each thread as you write them so don't bother wasting any more time.
Enough is enough now.
Its a pretty interesting insight to how people feel about a tricky subject in aviation.
Anymore of this and I will simply bin each thread as you write them so don't bother wasting any more time.
Enough is enough now.
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what's happened to my thread??? as Big Red 'L' said, there could have been soooo many interesting postings..... well, I won't give up hope......yet! otherwise I'll come to get you.... 
WestyP.S. I find myself not experiencing as much discrimination today as in the past... maybe times are changing and the way people think about women in aviation, too.
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Westy,
I hope for your sake that what I'm about to say won't turn this thread into a battleground. If you think it will, and you'd rather it didn't, pm me and I'll delete the post.
This afternoon, seriously wondering exactly what I'd said or done to precipitate such vehement attacks, I read the whole thread again. And I came upon this in my first post:
Was it prophetic, I wonder. Just...note...wonder. But it might...just might...explain a lot.
Penguina touched on something similar:
People may not agree with what I say. They may not like me. They may also think I post too much, that I'm too opinionated, that my views are rubbish, and all sorts of other things. This sort of thing is normal on PPRuNe, and happens all the time. But absolutely nothing I said or did could LOGICALLY account for the anger, the depth of emotion, that has been directed at me on this thread. It reached the state of being utterly bizarre. When I read the post that BRL afterwards deleted, I just burst out laughing.
But there must be a reason for people to get that annoyed. And such reactions, in my experience, usually occur because people feel threatened on some level, or in some way. Is that the case here? It would be completely understandable if it were. An interesting subject for discussion, maybe, anyway.
However, might I suggest that IF the above is discussed, people discuss my views rather than me as a person. I'm now completely aware of what some people think of me (I could hardly not be, could I?) And I don't care, and it's not relevant.
Anyway, BRL might well delete any personal attacks, even though I told him that as far as I was concerned he didn't need to.
I hope for your sake that what I'm about to say won't turn this thread into a battleground. If you think it will, and you'd rather it didn't, pm me and I'll delete the post.
This afternoon, seriously wondering exactly what I'd said or done to precipitate such vehement attacks, I read the whole thread again. And I came upon this in my first post:
women have been tentatively accepted in areas that are predominantly male for years, but only by "being one of the lads", and keeping quiet about that nasty and uncool subject - prejudice. But you see, I don't do that. I say it how I see it. And if I'm not liked for it, tough. And often I'm not, by either men, who don't want these things pointed out, or by women, who fear a male backlash.
Penguina touched on something similar:
I don't understand in general why people are upset by minorities discussing where they occur difficulties, or how they can draw themselves out of the minority. I work with a lot of people who, nationwide, are classed as ethnic minorities and I sometimes feel excluded by discussions about their ethnicity, or challenged as a white woman when they feel there is discrimination which I don't recognise immediately. But this doesn't make me angry.
But there must be a reason for people to get that annoyed. And such reactions, in my experience, usually occur because people feel threatened on some level, or in some way. Is that the case here? It would be completely understandable if it were. An interesting subject for discussion, maybe, anyway.
However, might I suggest that IF the above is discussed, people discuss my views rather than me as a person. I'm now completely aware of what some people think of me (I could hardly not be, could I?) And I don't care, and it's not relevant.
Anyway, BRL might well delete any personal attacks, even though I told him that as far as I was concerned he didn't need to.
Last edited by Whirlybird; 1st Aug 2003 at 02:15.
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Your first quote implies that women who disagree with you (or your views on prejudice against women) are in denial and are in fact in "fear of a male backlash". If so that is exceptionally disingenuous.
If as you say, you wish to understand why your comments provoke strong reactions ("Anger"), this kind of thing would be a good starting point. Combine that with examples such as your rather down-the-nose use of the royal "we" in your earlier response to me, and I think the stage is set quite nicely.
Others doubtless have their own reasons, but I would imagine that there are some common traits.
On the issue at hand...
Like many young(ish) women today, I feel able to conduct my life substantially free of prejudice on the basis of my sex. I am at least as well off as the Male applying to be a PA in the City. I think I may be rather better off than the Male applying to be a child-minder/baby-sitter. There has never been a time when I could achieve more, and feel more at ease in the company of fellow pilots of both sexes.
I suspect that I am not alone in feeling that the guilt card may have been played rather too heavily against men, to the point when a father may feel awkward kissing or hugging his young daughter and ordinary emerging relationships start to get hampered by unnecessary fears about political correctness.
Part of this must be laid at the door of earlier generations of ban-the-bomb, vegetarian, burn-your-bra, men-hating womens-libbers of yesteryear.
Times change, and the message needs to change with them for fear of becoming a cracked record with an irrelevant message.
Charlie.
If as you say, you wish to understand why your comments provoke strong reactions ("Anger"), this kind of thing would be a good starting point. Combine that with examples such as your rather down-the-nose use of the royal "we" in your earlier response to me, and I think the stage is set quite nicely.
Others doubtless have their own reasons, but I would imagine that there are some common traits.
On the issue at hand...
Like many young(ish)
women today, I feel able to conduct my life substantially free of prejudice on the basis of my sex. I am at least as well off as the Male applying to be a PA in the City. I think I may be rather better off than the Male applying to be a child-minder/baby-sitter. There has never been a time when I could achieve more, and feel more at ease in the company of fellow pilots of both sexes. I suspect that I am not alone in feeling that the guilt card may have been played rather too heavily against men, to the point when a father may feel awkward kissing or hugging his young daughter and ordinary emerging relationships start to get hampered by unnecessary fears about political correctness.
Part of this must be laid at the door of earlier generations of ban-the-bomb, vegetarian, burn-your-bra, men-hating womens-libbers of yesteryear.
Times change, and the message needs to change with them for fear of becoming a cracked record with an irrelevant message.
Charlie.
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Charlie,
Actually you misunderstood to what I was referring with that "we"...but never mind. Don't you think you and I should just agree to differ, perhaps?
Anyway, this point about age has come up a couple of times, either by you or someone else. Actually, I think in some case it's the other way round - that younger woman are very ready to make accusations of sexism, when a more mature woman would recognise joking, banter or intentional winding up. I'm thinking of a specific example. When I did my CPL tech exam course, I was told that the tutor had a reputation for being sexist. I was the only woman in the group, and the first day he treated me no differently from anyone else. So I was caught completely unawares on the second morning when I said "Can I ask what is perhaps a stupid question", and he replied instantly: "Well you're a woman. I'd expect you to ask stupid questions"
Apparently sexist. Except he wasn't. He was ex-military, and enjoyed trying to wind me up with military-type banter. I quickly realised this, and replied in kind, so that comments about piston engines being like my car engine, but of coiurse I'd never looked under there, had I, got a retort from me that of course I hadn't, I got men to do that for me, I wasn't stupid. It was a game, it got a laugh from the others...and I didn't mind because deep down on the level where it mattered this guy treated me as equal to anyone, and believed I could pass those exams..or do anything else. This is very very very different from people who pay lip service to equality, but deep down, and sometimes unconsciously, think women are inferior. I can tell the difference. I've run into it often enough to know. But I don't know that I could when I was younger. And I'm apparently not unique. Discussing things after the course, I said to the tutor that he had a reputation for being sexist, but "You just pretend to be". "****, you've seen through me", was his response. He then said he'd enjoyed sparring with me; most of the young girls couldn't take it. Yes, I thought, but didn't say; but CPL exams are hard enough for most young girls without having to put up with that kind of stuff too. Maybe I should have said it to him; I didn't; I don't know why. Anyway, you get my point I hope...this issue is not necessarily simple.
Actually you misunderstood to what I was referring with that "we"...but never mind. Don't you think you and I should just agree to differ, perhaps?
Anyway, this point about age has come up a couple of times, either by you or someone else. Actually, I think in some case it's the other way round - that younger woman are very ready to make accusations of sexism, when a more mature woman would recognise joking, banter or intentional winding up. I'm thinking of a specific example. When I did my CPL tech exam course, I was told that the tutor had a reputation for being sexist. I was the only woman in the group, and the first day he treated me no differently from anyone else. So I was caught completely unawares on the second morning when I said "Can I ask what is perhaps a stupid question", and he replied instantly: "Well you're a woman. I'd expect you to ask stupid questions"
Apparently sexist. Except he wasn't. He was ex-military, and enjoyed trying to wind me up with military-type banter. I quickly realised this, and replied in kind, so that comments about piston engines being like my car engine, but of coiurse I'd never looked under there, had I, got a retort from me that of course I hadn't, I got men to do that for me, I wasn't stupid. It was a game, it got a laugh from the others...and I didn't mind because deep down on the level where it mattered this guy treated me as equal to anyone, and believed I could pass those exams..or do anything else. This is very very very different from people who pay lip service to equality, but deep down, and sometimes unconsciously, think women are inferior. I can tell the difference. I've run into it often enough to know. But I don't know that I could when I was younger. And I'm apparently not unique. Discussing things after the course, I said to the tutor that he had a reputation for being sexist, but "You just pretend to be". "****, you've seen through me", was his response. He then said he'd enjoyed sparring with me; most of the young girls couldn't take it. Yes, I thought, but didn't say; but CPL exams are hard enough for most young girls without having to put up with that kind of stuff too. Maybe I should have said it to him; I didn't; I don't know why. Anyway, you get my point I hope...this issue is not necessarily simple.
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Whirly
I have been appalled at some personal comments that have come your way.
You and I have agreed on a number of occasions to disagree.
We both know that what we want is true equality I think its simply that the way you post may come across to those you do not know you as one who is a revolutionary and sees discrimination wherever you go.
That could simply be a matter of my misinterpretation of course
CSX001 s words strike home with me and are very much how I feel about the subject
I have been appalled at some personal comments that have come your way.
You and I have agreed on a number of occasions to disagree.
We both know that what we want is true equality I think its simply that the way you post may come across to those you do not know you as one who is a revolutionary and sees discrimination wherever you go.
That could simply be a matter of my misinterpretation of course
CSX001 s words strike home with me and are very much how I feel about the subject
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However, might I suggest that IF the above is discussed, people discuss my views rather than me as a person
As you suggest I think that there needs to be room to differ in opinion, something which is very much the case here. There are obvious 2 different 'camps' with little risk of supporters of either point of view crossing over.
So be it.
However if that is heartfelt by you I think that comments as:
But there must be a reason for people to get that annoyed. And such reactions, in my experience, usually occur because people feel threatened on some level, or in some way
Actually you misunderstood to what I was referring with that "we"...but never mind
As Flower said:
CSX001 s words strike home with me and are very much how I feel about the subject
Times change, and the message needs to change with them for fear of becoming a cracked record with an irrelevant message.
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Now you want me to go away. Fine; I'll do that. Whatever you post, I won't answer; you are welcome to have the last word
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Big Red L may delete me, (that's HIS priviledge), but I still stand by the statements made.
If someone is being 'discriminated' against as much as Whirly apparently is, then surely it's time to look elsewhere for the reason: It CAN'T always be because she's a woman.
Whirly sites example after example of discrimination. If this is the case, why doesn't it happen to all of us girls?
As I previously stated, personally I think that it's the MEN who are having a hard time these days, not necessarily in aviation, but certainly in other areas of life. They can't turn around and blame it on their sex; neither should we.
I have worked within the 'male dominated' sectors for most of my life, and played in them, (to cite one example, aviation). OK, so maybe occasionally someone,(male), may make a comment to do with gender that I COULD take seriously, but I think I'm level headed enough to deal with it. In other words, it's no big issue.
Hopefully, Big Red L will be man enough to leave this post alone!
FD
If someone is being 'discriminated' against as much as Whirly apparently is, then surely it's time to look elsewhere for the reason: It CAN'T always be because she's a woman.
Whirly sites example after example of discrimination. If this is the case, why doesn't it happen to all of us girls?
As I previously stated, personally I think that it's the MEN who are having a hard time these days, not necessarily in aviation, but certainly in other areas of life. They can't turn around and blame it on their sex; neither should we.
I have worked within the 'male dominated' sectors for most of my life, and played in them, (to cite one example, aviation). OK, so maybe occasionally someone,(male), may make a comment to do with gender that I COULD take seriously, but I think I'm level headed enough to deal with it. In other words, it's no big issue.
Hopefully, Big Red L will be man enough to leave this post alone!
FD
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Charlie,
Touche! Point number 1001 or whatever to you. OK, I changed my mind. So what; this is PPRune. I went away for a few days didn't I? Pretty good for a PPRuNeaholic like me, don't you think? 
flower,
I don't see discrimination wherever I go actually. But even if it appears that way, and even if it were the case, I'm not sure that it's such an awful horrible dreadful crime, and it doesnt seem to explain some of the personal insults I've received.
Flyin'Dutch,
I take your point, but if everyone took every general point as personally as that and got annoyed about it, and if everyone thought ten times before they posted about how anything could possibly be construed by the 60,000 people who might read it.... Well, OK, maybe I'll try harder. OK?
One possibly interesting point...
The interesting thing is that with a very few rare exceptions they didn't actually exist! As far as I remember, and I was a student in the late 60s, the only bra that got burnt was a symbolic gesture at a meeting or similar, and the media got hold of it and ran and ran and ran. Most of us thought bras were extremely liberating, especially for the well-endowed! I don't recall any men-hating either. I went to one women's lib meeting, and the things that got discussed were abysmally low pay (pre-Equal Pay Act of course) and similar social problems. The friend who came with me asked if we were going to discuss attitudes to women in general, and the response was that while we had situations like single women unable to feed their kids even with fulltime jobs...no, we weren't; first things first. It was basically a social and political organisation on the whole...except in the newspapers (and with possibly a few rare and well reported exceptions).
Just thought you might like to know that.
Touche!
Point number 1001 or whatever to you. OK, I changed my mind. So what; this is PPRune. I went away for a few days didn't I? Pretty good for a PPRuNeaholic like me, don't you think? flower,
I don't see discrimination wherever I go actually. But even if it appears that way, and even if it were the case, I'm not sure that it's such an awful horrible dreadful crime, and it doesnt seem to explain some of the personal insults I've received.
Flyin'Dutch,
I take your point, but if everyone took every general point as personally as that and got annoyed about it, and if everyone thought ten times before they posted about how anything could possibly be construed by the 60,000 people who might read it.... Well, OK, maybe I'll try harder. OK?
One possibly interesting point...
...ban-the-bomb, vegetarian, burn-your-bra, men-hating womens-libbers of yesteryear.
Just thought you might like to know that.
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Discrimination exists still in all areas of life, but I don’t believe it is quite as widespread as some make out. I am sure there are many men enjoy mixing with women as equals (I know I do) and sharing interests such as flying, but does that mean we have to watch every word we say for fear of offending someone ? Without doubt there are arrogant self centred people out there who will discriminate against anyone, not just against women. These people have insecurities they need to deal with, or maybe they can’t so they discriminate.
We are in danger of becoming too PC, and at risk of taking some of the fun out of life. A bunch of men out together will take the p!$$ out of each other (as do women probably), but if the group was mixed and a man took the p!$$ out of a woman is he deemed to be sexist and discriminatory ? There are men out there who will discriminate against a woman, but there are women out there who will look for a sexist comment in every remark a man makes.
Little is said of discrimination against men. For example, my local nightclub has a “ladies night” up to 11pm with £5 entry fee and drinks free all night. Men are allowed in after 11pm for £2 and have to pay for their drinks. Is that fair ?
There are mixed and women only gyms, yet I see little evidence of a men only gym, and imagine the complaints if there ever was one ?
There was mention of a women only forum on here, why ? There are no men only forums.
Women are as guilty of fuelling the discrimination issue as men. People of both sexes need to learn how to laugh and have fun again in this PC world we live in and not take things so seriously. Those types I mentioned at the beginning of the post who are genuinely resentful of the opposite sex will soon be found out by both men and women. We have to learn the difference between a bit of fun and genuine sexist comments. I have had the “you’re only a man” comment and had my standard of ironing ridiculed by female friends many times and I love it, it’s just fun and I don’t have a problem with it. If I wanted I could play the sexist card but I know they are just winding me up. :P
I agree with CSX001 when she says
Men are now in a position where we do not know how to be or act with a woman as we get so many contradictory messages.
Discrimination exists for both sexes, but maybe men are more likely to just get on with things. Equality means being able to make comments about someone of the opposite sex like you would to someone of your own sex without fear of being labelled a sexist. Maybe we should start there.
We are in danger of becoming too PC, and at risk of taking some of the fun out of life. A bunch of men out together will take the p!$$ out of each other (as do women probably), but if the group was mixed and a man took the p!$$ out of a woman is he deemed to be sexist and discriminatory ? There are men out there who will discriminate against a woman, but there are women out there who will look for a sexist comment in every remark a man makes.
Little is said of discrimination against men. For example, my local nightclub has a “ladies night” up to 11pm with £5 entry fee and drinks free all night. Men are allowed in after 11pm for £2 and have to pay for their drinks. Is that fair ?
There are mixed and women only gyms, yet I see little evidence of a men only gym, and imagine the complaints if there ever was one ?
There was mention of a women only forum on here, why ? There are no men only forums.
Women are as guilty of fuelling the discrimination issue as men. People of both sexes need to learn how to laugh and have fun again in this PC world we live in and not take things so seriously. Those types I mentioned at the beginning of the post who are genuinely resentful of the opposite sex will soon be found out by both men and women. We have to learn the difference between a bit of fun and genuine sexist comments. I have had the “you’re only a man” comment and had my standard of ironing ridiculed by female friends many times and I love it, it’s just fun and I don’t have a problem with it. If I wanted I could play the sexist card but I know they are just winding me up. :P
I agree with CSX001 when she says
I suspect that I am not alone in feeling that the guilt card may have been played rather too heavily against men, to the point when a father may feel awkward kissing or hugging his young daughter and ordinary emerging relationships start to get hampered by unnecessary fears about political correctness.
Discrimination exists for both sexes, but maybe men are more likely to just get on with things. Equality means being able to make comments about someone of the opposite sex like you would to someone of your own sex without fear of being labelled a sexist. Maybe we should start there.
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Whirly,
I wonder if you'd have put Darwin straight on a few things if had the chance. "You know Chas, this Origin of Species, haven't you considered..........."
Biddulph again, (a sub chapter entitled 'Boys are not inferior- just different'.
"As well as having mathematical and mechanical abilities, males tend to be action-oriented......"
"The right side of the brain handles both feelings and actions, so men are more lokely to take action while women tend to mull over something to the point of paralysis!"
Evidence is to be found in your own reply to my last "...they had previously thought flying was a male-only environment."
Also another poster on this thread who didn't know how to get started.
So rather than go and find out, which would take no longer than a trip to the Yellow Pages and a telephone call or two, they just didn't take any action at all.
Or, the interest was not strong enough that they did so.
CSX. re. BRL's input.
Exactly what I was thinking!
I wonder if you'd have put Darwin straight on a few things if had the chance. "You know Chas, this Origin of Species, haven't you considered..........."
Biddulph again, (a sub chapter entitled 'Boys are not inferior- just different'.
"As well as having mathematical and mechanical abilities, males tend to be action-oriented......"
"The right side of the brain handles both feelings and actions, so men are more lokely to take action while women tend to mull over something to the point of paralysis!"
Evidence is to be found in your own reply to my last "...they had previously thought flying was a male-only environment."
Also another poster on this thread who didn't know how to get started.
So rather than go and find out, which would take no longer than a trip to the Yellow Pages and a telephone call or two, they just didn't take any action at all.
Or, the interest was not strong enough that they did so.
CSX. re. BRL's input.
Exactly what I was thinking!
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After making a reply in the "Jetblast" thread, I'll now try to "rescue" my thread here
What do we have? We have many women that have experienced discrimination in the flying community, myself included, and it wasn't always "imagined" either! The head instructor who refused to sign me up as an instructor because I was a woman actually said and meant it!! And that I got no support from the club board is also a fact! I don't mind the usual comments and banter... I "tolerate" the sexist jokes and comments and counter with remarks of my own!
I have also experienced clubs that didn't care if the person was a man or woman... my present club is that way, but we still have too few women flying in it! And that's the whole point! Why? I know so many women that fly as passengers with their hubbies, but when you ask them why they don't learn themselves they look at you as if you said something naughty!! (I didn't honest!
)
The idea behind a forum area primarily (not exclusive) for women subjects is simply the fact that yes, there are subjects that only interest women like (these are just samples and aren't questions that I, myself, have..):
what do you do with your kids when you go flying? (men could ask that, too, but it is usually a woman's concern, isn't it?)
I'm married to an airline pilot and can't cope, who can help me? (I used to be married to an airline pilot and could give tips here, as maybe other airline wives could).
I fly often with my hubbie but don't fly myself because of medical reasons, how can I help him when we fly together? (an answer could be getting the radio licence, for example)
just a small example... but I'm sure the list could get very long and interesting!
I will stop my rambling now and grab my second cup of coffee
wish you all a nice weekend... I'll check in now and again!!
Westy
What do we have? We have many women that have experienced discrimination in the flying community, myself included, and it wasn't always "imagined" either! The head instructor who refused to sign me up as an instructor because I was a woman actually said and meant it!! And that I got no support from the club board is also a fact! I don't mind the usual comments and banter... I "tolerate" the sexist jokes and comments and counter with remarks of my own!
I have also experienced clubs that didn't care if the person was a man or woman... my present club is that way, but we still have too few women flying in it! And that's the whole point! Why? I know so many women that fly as passengers with their hubbies, but when you ask them why they don't learn themselves they look at you as if you said something naughty!! (I didn't honest!
)The idea behind a forum area primarily (not exclusive) for women subjects is simply the fact that yes, there are subjects that only interest women like (these are just samples and aren't questions that I, myself, have..):
what do you do with your kids when you go flying? (men could ask that, too, but it is usually a woman's concern, isn't it?)
I'm married to an airline pilot and can't cope, who can help me? (I used to be married to an airline pilot and could give tips here, as maybe other airline wives could).
I fly often with my hubbie but don't fly myself because of medical reasons, how can I help him when we fly together? (an answer could be getting the radio licence, for example)
just a small example... but I'm sure the list could get very long and interesting!
I will stop my rambling now and grab my second cup of coffee
wish you all a nice weekend... I'll check in now and again!!
Westy
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Getting back to the original question...!!!
I am female and did my heli training in Australia a few years ago. I was encouraged then and still get encouragement now from many, particularly my male counterparts.
I have made some great mates along the way and to them I say cheers. Perhaps it's an Aussie thing, I dunno!
Occasionally I have been the brunt of a joke for whatever reason but it is exactly that - a joke!! I laugh. I have laughed along when the joke has been on someone else, a bloke, a dog, or a paintjob on a machine.
Some people need to to relax, take things a little less seriously and learn how to laugh a little.
I am female and did my heli training in Australia a few years ago. I was encouraged then and still get encouragement now from many, particularly my male counterparts.
I have made some great mates along the way and to them I say cheers. Perhaps it's an Aussie thing, I dunno!
Occasionally I have been the brunt of a joke for whatever reason but it is exactly that - a joke!! I laugh. I have laughed along when the joke has been on someone else, a bloke, a dog, or a paintjob on a machine.
Some people need to to relax, take things a little less seriously and learn how to laugh a little.