Women in Aviation
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Hi Whirly et al.,
No guns to be seen here, but thought that I'd give my two pennies worth!
Nowt wrong with being a bit reflective.
Seems that if nothing else, it has helped to get some more positive feedback posts on here. Apparently there are folks out there who can deal with male-chauvinistic pigs in a proactive manner.
Just shows it can be done!
FD
No guns to be seen here, but thought that I'd give my two pennies worth!
Nowt wrong with being a bit reflective.
Seems that if nothing else, it has helped to get some more positive feedback posts on here. Apparently there are folks out there who can deal with male-chauvinistic pigs in a proactive manner.
Just shows it can be done!
FD
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Very late in the discussion I know but there are SARTOR requirements for Chatered Engineer in the IEE are here
Perhaps it varies across disciplines but I am very much aligned with Ghengis's view. Not sure about the software world and can't comment on Gertrudes experiences or area but box filling it isn't, not in the IEE at least.
Perhaps it varies across disciplines but I am very much aligned with Ghengis's view. Not sure about the software world and can't comment on Gertrudes experiences or area but box filling it isn't, not in the IEE at least.
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I am curious to know what some of the more vociferous leading ladies in this thread think about the "PINK headsets" saga forging forth in a forum near you.
Whilst it is obviously wonderful to see another lady entering into the world of flying, and clearly having so much fun, what kind of stereotypical view of women do you think her postings re-enforce? I won't post quotes because I think that would be unnecessarily unkind and because my comments are not motivated by the lady as an individual. I think that any reader of that thread will rapidly understand what I am getting at.
The message I take home from it is that in life there are undoubtedly men who are MCPs, and there are undoubtedly helpless "girlies" whose personalities have developed around exploiting that trait for whatever end.
Mostly though, there are just "people", getting on with the job, whatever it might be, and ignoring whether the person sitting to their left, or right, is male or female.
Charlie.
Whilst it is obviously wonderful to see another lady entering into the world of flying, and clearly having so much fun, what kind of stereotypical view of women do you think her postings re-enforce? I won't post quotes because I think that would be unnecessarily unkind and because my comments are not motivated by the lady as an individual. I think that any reader of that thread will rapidly understand what I am getting at.
The message I take home from it is that in life there are undoubtedly men who are MCPs, and there are undoubtedly helpless "girlies" whose personalities have developed around exploiting that trait for whatever end.
Mostly though, there are just "people", getting on with the job, whatever it might be, and ignoring whether the person sitting to their left, or right, is male or female.
Charlie.
The Original Whirly
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CSX001,
pink_aviator appears to be happy in her own skin and being as she wants to be. So good luck to her! She and I are probably about as different as it's possible to get apart from a love of flying, but so what? Sadly, I suspect her postings do reinforce a stereotypical view of women. But I don't think she, or anyone else, should change the way they are because of what other people think.
If a man does something, or is a particular way, people think it's just him. If it's a woman, they deduce that all women, ie half the human race, are the same way. Hmmm...and I thought men were supposed to be logical.
Pink one, I for one like your thread!
pink_aviator appears to be happy in her own skin and being as she wants to be. So good luck to her! She and I are probably about as different as it's possible to get apart from a love of flying, but so what? Sadly, I suspect her postings do reinforce a stereotypical view of women. But I don't think she, or anyone else, should change the way they are because of what other people think.
If a man does something, or is a particular way, people think it's just him. If it's a woman, they deduce that all women, ie half the human race, are the same way. Hmmm...and I thought men were supposed to be logical.
Pink one, I for one like your thread!
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I think that when a woman is ill-treated by a MCP, she may think badly of all men for a while, but most are able to see beyond the individual.
When I see "girly girls" playing up their vulnerabilities and writing like 7 year olds, it is easy to see why men might be tempted to think that all women are like that. But I trust that most men can see beyond the individual too.
There are only a few on both sides who seem to want to extrapolate a bad experience with one member of the opposite sex, into a general comment about the entire sex. This of course reflects more on them and their ability to relate to the opposite sex, than it does about the opposite sex in general.
Hmmm.... and I thought all women were good cooks 
Charlie
When I see "girly girls" playing up their vulnerabilities and writing like 7 year olds, it is easy to see why men might be tempted to think that all women are like that. But I trust that most men can see beyond the individual too.
There are only a few on both sides who seem to want to extrapolate a bad experience with one member of the opposite sex, into a general comment about the entire sex. This of course reflects more on them and their ability to relate to the opposite sex, than it does about the opposite sex in general.
Hmmm...and I thought men were supposed to be logical.
Charlie
Hmmm.... and I thought all women were good cooks
Don't tell Mrs Genghis that. Many years ago she and I came to the firm understanding that my sole involvement in the garden is heavy lifting and she doesn't try to cook anything more complicated than beans on toast.
Mind you, I've yet to persuade her that it's physically possible for women to change a broken vacuum cleaner belt. (We are however united on the fact that using it is something we pay somebody else to do, as is ironing.)
G
Don't tell Mrs Genghis that. Many years ago she and I came to the firm understanding that my sole involvement in the garden is heavy lifting and she doesn't try to cook anything more complicated than beans on toast.
Mind you, I've yet to persuade her that it's physically possible for women to change a broken vacuum cleaner belt. (We are however united on the fact that using it is something we pay somebody else to do, as is ironing.)
G
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As an unusually young person in aviation, and female too (could you tell by the name?), I've experienced a very odd mix of attitudes towards my flying. My instructor was excellent, and the more I talk to people, the more I realise how unusual he was. He would quite happily tell people that he thought women generally made better pilots, as they didn't have testosterone problems. He instructed military students, and loved teasing them about his two 'girlie' PPL students back in Coventry. However, he never let his personal opinions affect his instructing, and didn't tell his students how they compared in relation to each other. After all, learning to fly isn't about being better than the others at it, it's about being good enough to pass.
The only negative attitude I've had from my flying group was from an old time member, who believes everyone in the club house should wear a collar and tie, and that women shouldn't be allowed. He didn't talk to me, or even acknowledge my presence in the clubhouse for the first year.
I've experienced the refueling issue too. Every time I've flown with a man, they get asked how much fuel they want. Even when the refueler has seen us get out of the aeroplane. Even when my passenger has been standing to one side, looking in the opposite direction, and I've been standing by the pump, trying to get attention.
However ...
... I also once made the same mistake myself. I can't remember what happened, but I assumed the man was the pilot, and the woman was the passenger. Needless to say, I was very embarassed, and haven't done it again.
The only negative attitude I've had from my flying group was from an old time member, who believes everyone in the club house should wear a collar and tie, and that women shouldn't be allowed. He didn't talk to me, or even acknowledge my presence in the clubhouse for the first year.
I've experienced the refueling issue too. Every time I've flown with a man, they get asked how much fuel they want. Even when the refueler has seen us get out of the aeroplane. Even when my passenger has been standing to one side, looking in the opposite direction, and I've been standing by the pump, trying to get attention.
However ...
... I also once made the same mistake myself. I can't remember what happened, but I assumed the man was the pilot, and the woman was the passenger. Needless to say, I was very embarassed, and haven't done it again.
The Original Whirly
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Many years ago she and I came to the firm understanding that my sole involvement in the garden was heavy lifting
) I was quite seriously into body building. By the time I realised I'd never develop enough in the way of obvious muscles to compete (wrong genetic makeup or something), I was quite incredibly strong for someone who looked like a 5' 2" typical girlie. Anyway, one day at the gym I annoyed a male weight training instructor by ignoring his advice to use lighter weights, and he decided to take me down a peg or two by asking him to "spot" for him - that means being ready to take a barbell from him when he's had enough, for the uninitiated. When I ended up calmly and fairly effortlessly holding his 40kg barbell at arms length and asking him if he wanted to do any more, he glared at me in fury, and never talked to me again!So when I see comments about women shouldn't be allowed to do so and so and this and that because they're not strong enough...some of us are, or can be with training, so don't generalise until you know.
These days, however, the most physical thing I do is drag an R22 out of the hangar occasionally, and if you ask me to to lift something heavy I'll probably drop it.
Mostly irrelevant I know, but hey, I'm having a boring day at work.
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S’funny, but when I decided to take flying lessons it never even occurred to me that being a girl would make things any different. It didn’t. Similarly I was hugely surprised when I joined the legal profession and found lots of females whingeing about discrimination. Being a girl doesn’t make any difference to either of them. The only difference comes when you get to an age where you might want rugrats, and then you have to think about childcare and all that grown up stuff (fortunately I’m not there yet). In any event, childcare is a different issue applicable to both men and women – the only bit the guys can’t do is be pregnant and give birth.
Oh, and the other difference is the fact that I am physically unable to budge the hangar doors, much to the amusement of the blokes. Even that, however, is more to do with the fact that I’m a weed who hates exercise, not that I’m a girl.
So in short, and for what it’s worth, I reckon that these days, what makes a difference, whether in aviation or anything else, is your own attitude – if you see being female as an issue, then it becomes an issue.
But hey, that’s just my opinion.
Oh, and the other difference is the fact that I am physically unable to budge the hangar doors, much to the amusement of the blokes. Even that, however, is more to do with the fact that I’m a weed who hates exercise, not that I’m a girl.
So in short, and for what it’s worth, I reckon that these days, what makes a difference, whether in aviation or anything else, is your own attitude – if you see being female as an issue, then it becomes an issue.
But hey, that’s just my opinion.
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Quite right Flyin'Dutch'!
It is the rather strident sound of women complaining that can sometimes detract from the message.
Very much the same as a drunk man phoning you up to tell you he "really lurvs you" late at night. The way the message is delivered can detract from the contents
Charlie
It is the rather strident sound of women complaining that can sometimes detract from the message.
Very much the same as a drunk man phoning you up to tell you he "really lurvs you" late at night. The way the message is delivered can detract from the contents
Charlie
The Original Whirly
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I reserve the right to whine and moan if I feel like it!!!! And after the 100th ignorant or sexist remark, despite having never expected being a woman to make any difference when I started flying, I'll feel like it!!!!!!!!! I'm human, not a saint. And if people don't like it, it's bloody tough. I've been living long enough to cope with not being liked, and with me, what you see is what you get. And if it reflects badly on other women...well, if you extrapolate from just me to half the human race...
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Whirlybird.
The fact backing my statements up, evidence if you will, is that there aren't more women flying than there are.
The anecdotal evidence is just my observation. (Names could but will not be supplied.)
The final part (male/female brain) is scientific fact.
Whether or not you agree or disagree does not stop it being true!
Where's YOUR logical reply?
The fact backing my statements up, evidence if you will, is that there aren't more women flying than there are.
The anecdotal evidence is just my observation. (Names could but will not be supplied.)
The final part (male/female brain) is scientific fact.
Whether or not you agree or disagree does not stop it being true!
Where's YOUR logical reply?
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Men & Women are born equal but different.
Arguments such as those presented by miserlou belong in the Ark.
Whirlybird has had some unfortunate experiences which by and large seem not to be experienced by the vast majority of us, which has to be a very positive point.
We are each of us at some time in our lives guilty of sexism , racism etc even if we have no intention to do so.
How do we get more women to fly , be positive , show how much fun it can be from a hobby point of view , show how much can be acheived if you wish to make it your career.
We will see less and less of this being an issue as years go on, as I have said before I do not find the world of aviation sexist at all. The ladies coming into now having just left university will probably never experience the problems that Whirlybird has.
Those who wish to make divisions between men and women have no place in our society today.
Men and Women gain from each other we profit from our differences.
Arguments such as those presented by miserlou belong in the Ark.
Whirlybird has had some unfortunate experiences which by and large seem not to be experienced by the vast majority of us, which has to be a very positive point.
We are each of us at some time in our lives guilty of sexism , racism etc even if we have no intention to do so.
How do we get more women to fly , be positive , show how much fun it can be from a hobby point of view , show how much can be acheived if you wish to make it your career.
We will see less and less of this being an issue as years go on, as I have said before I do not find the world of aviation sexist at all. The ladies coming into now having just left university will probably never experience the problems that Whirlybird has.
Those who wish to make divisions between men and women have no place in our society today.
Men and Women gain from each other we profit from our differences.
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There is a certain truth to the old saying that "you make your own luck". I am sure that this is also true in relationships with the opposite sex.
Those who find these difficult and expect to find prejudice will find it. Those that don't will have no trouble spotting the rotten apple amongst their male colleagues, and will see that he has a problem, rather than them.
Whining about general discrimination is as outdated as the discrimination that undoubtedly existed in bygone times.
I am very happy with my aviation career, and I don't think that my sex has held me back one iota. It hasn't stopped me encountering some nasty people, and some born victims, of both sexes along the way.
Charlie.
Those who find these difficult and expect to find prejudice will find it. Those that don't will have no trouble spotting the rotten apple amongst their male colleagues, and will see that he has a problem, rather than them.
Whining about general discrimination is as outdated as the discrimination that undoubtedly existed in bygone times.
I am very happy with my aviation career, and I don't think that my sex has held me back one iota. It hasn't stopped me encountering some nasty people, and some born victims, of both sexes along the way.
Charlie.
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Flyin' Shark:
Good to read about your positive attitude and ensuing experiences!
Flower
Love it when you hit the nail on the head like that. Too true!!
Whirly
You said:
Must have been a bad day at that too! To throw your toys out of the pram like this:
Of course you may but on the whole those who stamp their feet are taken a tad less serious.
Chill out...........................
FD
Good to read about your positive attitude and ensuing experiences!
Flower
Men & Women are born equal but different
Whirly
You said:
Mostly irrelevant I know, but hey, I'm having a boring day at work.
I reserve the right to whine and moan if I feel like it!!!!
Chill out...........................
FD
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heh! who's complaining? we're just stating facts as we've experienced them.....
@Miserlou
(that's a Greek dance, isn't it?)... I can't believe some of oyur statements....
Of course men and women are different, both physically and mentally, but that doesn't make either one less able!! of course there will always be "girlie" jobs and "boy toys"... not all men want to fly just as not all women want to fly... our point is, that women often don't even get the idea that they can learn to fly!! and then when they try, they ofen have to try harder then the guys! If in ATPL training (or whatever) they do a mistake, then it's "see! told ya a girl couldn't do it"... have a guy do the same mistake, no one notices or cares...
I enjoy being a "girl" and enjoy "girlie" stuff... but I also appreciate being treated like an equal...
@CSX001
in my first posting I mentioned the Pink_Aviator thread... I think it's fantastic!! She's being herself and doing what she wants to do no matter what the odds!!
keep it up Pinkster
Westy
@Miserlou
(that's a Greek dance, isn't it?)... I can't believe some of oyur statements....
The final part (male/female brain) is scientific fact
I enjoy being a "girl" and enjoy "girlie" stuff... but I also appreciate being treated like an equal...
@CSX001
in my first posting I mentioned the Pink_Aviator thread... I think it's fantastic!! She's being herself and doing what she wants to do no matter what the odds!!
keep it up Pinkster
Westy
The Original Whirly
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miserlou,
This whole thread has presented all the other possible reasons why there aren't more women flying. I suggest you read rather than skim it. If you explain your ideas on male/female brains, I'll reply logically. I certainly haven't heard of any evidence of what you're referring to, and my degree was in psychology/physiology.
Flyin'Dutch,
You just don't get it, do you? I am not remotely concerned with what you or others think of me. I am well aware that women who behave nicely, and don't complain, and never mention a word about anything which might annoy anyone, especially MEN, are liked and rewarded. I don't choose to do that. I would have thought that was obvious. I'm not asking you to like me, take me seriously, or agree with me. However, I would appreciate it if you didn't decide that I represent half the human race...since most of the people who know me think I'm a one-off and they broke the mould after me.
This whole thread has presented all the other possible reasons why there aren't more women flying. I suggest you read rather than skim it. If you explain your ideas on male/female brains, I'll reply logically. I certainly haven't heard of any evidence of what you're referring to, and my degree was in psychology/physiology.
Flyin'Dutch,
You just don't get it, do you? I am not remotely concerned with what you or others think of me. I am well aware that women who behave nicely, and don't complain, and never mention a word about anything which might annoy anyone, especially MEN, are liked and rewarded. I don't choose to do that. I would have thought that was obvious. I'm not asking you to like me, take me seriously, or agree with me. However, I would appreciate it if you didn't decide that I represent half the human race...since most of the people who know me think I'm a one-off and they broke the mould after me.