On Track
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On Track
The On Track report seems to be out here. I've only skimmed the recommendations so far, but it all seems sensible stuff to me - lets hope somebody is listening... 
aceatco, retired
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Yes, I've only had a quick read, but they seem to be recommending everything that has been suggested, if I understand it correctly. Great in an ideal world, but it ain't going to happen.
Perahps I should read it again. . .
VA
Perahps I should read it again. . .
VA
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On Track
This COULD be a major step forward for ALL concerned. It is well researched and well presented and does not take a lot of reading. Well done CAA. I would like to suggest that it is required reading by all (especially Stansted controllers) (hard hat on and head down now)
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Over a period of years the UK CAA have been becoming increasingly concerned about the number of controlled airspace infringements. They decided to commission a project to analyse the reasons why. There is a good website with useful information here:
Fly On Track
This report is the recommendations of this project. Airspace, especially in the areas such at Heathrow/Gatwick, Manchester, Luton/Stansted, is complicated and requires enhanced navigational caution. Airspace infringements are not restricted to these areas, they occur in different places for different reasons and the research is looking at patterns of flight behaviour and other contributing factors in order to make any changes felt necessary.
Fly On Track
This report is the recommendations of this project. Airspace, especially in the areas such at Heathrow/Gatwick, Manchester, Luton/Stansted, is complicated and requires enhanced navigational caution. Airspace infringements are not restricted to these areas, they occur in different places for different reasons and the research is looking at patterns of flight behaviour and other contributing factors in order to make any changes felt necessary.
Last edited by Andrew Sinclair; 13th Jul 2003 at 22:19.
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WorkingHard,
I'll get the Stansted controllers to read it if you get the multiple infringers of CAS going to and from the PFA Rally at Kemble over the last few days to read it, and maybe plan their next flights a bit better as a result, as well
WF.
I'll get the Stansted controllers to read it if you get the multiple infringers of CAS going to and from the PFA Rally at Kemble over the last few days to read it, and maybe plan their next flights a bit better as a result, as well
WF.
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I was chatting with a couple of guys from the CAA who were manning the stand at PFA Kemble and I am sure one of the gentlemen said there had been 42(?) infringements in connection with flights to and from Kemble. I am sure he said 42, but when I think about it now that seems an extraordinarily high number, not challenging him, but rather my memory!
Can anyone confirm this number?
Can anyone confirm this number?
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It was very hot in that marquee so I was feeling rather sticky when we talked , but yes the number of infringments he mentioned was very high , and at that time it was Saturday morning with many more arrivals and departures to come so I suspect it may well rise .
It was also obvious that although the majority had read their AICs others either didn't understand it or hadn't actually read it.
It was also obvious that although the majority had read their AICs others either didn't understand it or hadn't actually read it.
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Andrew S
You might find that the number quoted sounds about right for Lyneham only! God knows how many others there were.
Needless to say you may find quite a bit of opposition to it being held at Kemble again.
You might find that the number quoted sounds about right for Lyneham only! God knows how many others there were.
Needless to say you may find quite a bit of opposition to it being held at Kemble again.
aceatco, retired
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I have re-read the report and whilst undoubtedly there is some good stuff in there, I am, quite frankly, disappointed. It seems to be a list of suggestions submitted by others, no doubt quite laudable, but with no critical evaluation as to whether they are achievable. Perhaps this wasn't their remit, I don't know.
It is easy to recognised all of the arguments put forward in the report, some of which are quite valid, and others of which are frankly unconvincing but absent any added-value commentary though, the report amounted to little more than a GA wish list.
For instance, yes, LARS can be greatly improved by having more LARS units, but how is this to be funded.
I also find it disappointing that no one from ATC was on the team.
So, where do we go from here?
VA
It is easy to recognised all of the arguments put forward in the report, some of which are quite valid, and others of which are frankly unconvincing but absent any added-value commentary though, the report amounted to little more than a GA wish list.
For instance, yes, LARS can be greatly improved by having more LARS units, but how is this to be funded.
I also find it disappointing that no one from ATC was on the team.
So, where do we go from here?
VA
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Having never experienced a PFA Rally before I cannot say whether or not the number of infringements were worse than any other Rally before.
Kemble is ideally placed Geographically but the problem is always the few individuals (and when you consider the numbers who flew in it was few) who fail to brief correctly. Through forums such as these it was emphasisied time and time again that it was essential to be fully aufait with the AIC for the rally.
Websites such as Ontrack and the continued improvements made to the availability of NOTAMs people are running out of excuses not to brief. It would be a great shame that something should be moved simply because of the few who let the many down.
I was unaware that there was little or no ATC imput thankyou Vintage ATCO for highlighting that, it is something that should be addressed.
Kemble is ideally placed Geographically but the problem is always the few individuals (and when you consider the numbers who flew in it was few) who fail to brief correctly. Through forums such as these it was emphasisied time and time again that it was essential to be fully aufait with the AIC for the rally.
Websites such as Ontrack and the continued improvements made to the availability of NOTAMs people are running out of excuses not to brief. It would be a great shame that something should be moved simply because of the few who let the many down.
I was unaware that there was little or no ATC imput thankyou Vintage ATCO for highlighting that, it is something that should be addressed.
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Welcome to the On Track Website - taking a completely fresh look at Airspace Infringements.
For the first time, we are asking the opinion of you at the sharp end - pilots & controllers - to tell us what's wrong with "the system", how to put it right and stop infringements. That's our aim!
For the first time, we are asking the opinion of you at the sharp end - pilots & controllers - to tell us what's wrong with "the system", how to put it right and stop infringements. That's our aim!
www.flyontrack.co.uk
Okay, no non-pilots on the "team", but numerous contributions from both sides of the radio went into the documentation and website discussions.
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Thanks Rustle,
I have spent this last year upto my neck involved in a great deal of planning for new procedures at my unit.
Perhaps I should try to give some time and effort to such things.
No use complaining if you you are not prepared to help out.
I have spent this last year upto my neck involved in a great deal of planning for new procedures at my unit.
Perhaps I should try to give some time and effort to such things.
No use complaining if you you are not prepared to help out.
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Flower I suspect you are misenterpreting VA's comment, which I believe was about the OnTrack project rather than about the Kemble AIC.
VA
Note that the OnTrack team were not from the CAA and also not from ATC.
ATC were free to provide input, as were pilots. It was the job of the project team to collate and evaluate the information they received (and there was a lot of it) and this report is the result. It was not the job of the team to express or impose their own personal views. In collating information from pilots and controllers it was important that they were not "officials" either from the CAA or from the controller community. A controller may have felt inhibited about speaking his mind if he knew that he would be personally identifiable to a person in a position of authority, perhaps even from within the same organisation he works for.
As the quote above says, infringements generally stem from pilots. The project was trying to find the causal factors that led pilots to infringe. While controllers have to deal with the problem when it arises, they appear to be rarely involved in the factors that led to the infringement.
As I recall, there was actually quite a lot of input from controllers in the discussion.
Mike
VA
As most infringements result from pilot related problems, it was important to commission a project team of non-CAA active pilots, to discuss infringements inconfidence with pilots and controllers, without fear of punitive action. The selection
of suitable team members was critical to the success of the project. It was essential they had collective experience of both GA pilot and controller operational issues and also had inter-personal skills that would encourage reporters to feel comfortable
when discussing sensitive events.
of suitable team members was critical to the success of the project. It was essential they had collective experience of both GA pilot and controller operational issues and also had inter-personal skills that would encourage reporters to feel comfortable
when discussing sensitive events.
ATC were free to provide input, as were pilots. It was the job of the project team to collate and evaluate the information they received (and there was a lot of it) and this report is the result. It was not the job of the team to express or impose their own personal views. In collating information from pilots and controllers it was important that they were not "officials" either from the CAA or from the controller community. A controller may have felt inhibited about speaking his mind if he knew that he would be personally identifiable to a person in a position of authority, perhaps even from within the same organisation he works for.
As the quote above says, infringements generally stem from pilots. The project was trying to find the causal factors that led pilots to infringe. While controllers have to deal with the problem when it arises, they appear to be rarely involved in the factors that led to the infringement.
As I recall, there was actually quite a lot of input from controllers in the discussion.
Mike
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The report appears to cover all the points relevant to GA concerning avoidance of infringements, and in a very positive way.
Lets hope some of the recommendations can be implemented in a short time span.
Lets hope most of them will be implemented eventually.
A lot of expertise and professionalism has produced an in depth but clear document.
Lets hope some of the recommendations can be implemented in a short time span.
Lets hope most of them will be implemented eventually.
A lot of expertise and professionalism has produced an in depth but clear document.
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Mike ,
thanks for that , I was aware that this was about "Ontrack " rather than Kemble, the two unfortunately are being linked.
It is interesting I have just been having a conversation about this and very little information on this if any has been disemminated locally at my unit. For what reason I do not know.If it has been then it hasn't been well publicised.
Most ATCOs are very happy to voice their views as you are well aware and if we have permission to be involved in such projects I doubt if any would be concerned about there name being linked. We are encouraged to air views within NATS which may improve safety in anyway.
As I said this last year has been manic for me with new procedures being addressed for my own unit, I shall try to find time to look at the issues they are raising and see if I can help in anyway.Even if its just adding my tuppence worth in the forums.
thanks for that , I was aware that this was about "Ontrack " rather than Kemble, the two unfortunately are being linked.
It is interesting I have just been having a conversation about this and very little information on this if any has been disemminated locally at my unit. For what reason I do not know.If it has been then it hasn't been well publicised.
Most ATCOs are very happy to voice their views as you are well aware and if we have permission to be involved in such projects I doubt if any would be concerned about there name being linked. We are encouraged to air views within NATS which may improve safety in anyway.
As I said this last year has been manic for me with new procedures being addressed for my own unit, I shall try to find time to look at the issues they are raising and see if I can help in anyway.Even if its just adding my tuppence worth in the forums.
Last edited by flower; 14th Jul 2003 at 05:26.
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Flower
You must have had your gaze averted for a long time. There was plenty of reference to the OnTrack project on this forum at the time, including postings from the team themselves. The report contains some of the publicity material. It was also featured in GASIL.
The project ran and was live on the web from August 2001 to December 2002. If your unit and its management were unaware of it that's a pity.
Mike
You must have had your gaze averted for a long time. There was plenty of reference to the OnTrack project on this forum at the time, including postings from the team themselves. The report contains some of the publicity material. It was also featured in GASIL.
The project ran and was live on the web from August 2001 to December 2002. If your unit and its management were unaware of it that's a pity.
Mike
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Mike
unfortunately was only introduced to this forum this year which may explain a great deal.
GASIL also doesn't tend to find its way to us either.
Im very sorry
unfortunately was only introduced to this forum this year which may explain a great deal.
GASIL also doesn't tend to find its way to us either.
Im very sorry
Last edited by flower; 14th Jul 2003 at 05:56.