Biggin Hill - An accident waiting to happen?
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Biggin Hill - An accident waiting to happen?
I was flying back in from a jolly over the weekend; I think it was about 17:00. Dialled up 129.4 and it was complete pandemonium. People stepping on other transmissions, Jet traffic on the ILS screaming to get a word in edgeways – in a word utter chaos! The reason for this? Yet again, instead of having the Tower and Approach frequencies in use (as virtually every other airfield in the South East manages – especially on a busy Weekend afternoon) Biggin has just the one.
Biggin has, in my experience, probably the most professional ATCO’s I have ever come across. They do an exceptional job in an extremely busy environment. But the airport is so busy that it is verging on criminal to have just one frequency in use (as I said above; ESPECIALLY on a busy Weekend afternoon) as believe you me, it IS an accident waiting to happen!
Now rumours abound in the Pilots bar across the field as to why this is continuing to happen; some sublime, some ridiculous but given especially (and I stress that this is another rumour from across the field) that the CAA are apparently none too pleased with the one frequency thing, surely, this is playing with fire?
I know that I am not alone in this one and I know that the SATCO occasionally comments on here (Called ‘The Mad Controller’ I think) and I wondered if he could maybe set the record straight?
Would be interested in hearing fellow Ppruners views on this one.
Best wishes,
BH
Biggin has, in my experience, probably the most professional ATCO’s I have ever come across. They do an exceptional job in an extremely busy environment. But the airport is so busy that it is verging on criminal to have just one frequency in use (as I said above; ESPECIALLY on a busy Weekend afternoon) as believe you me, it IS an accident waiting to happen!
Now rumours abound in the Pilots bar across the field as to why this is continuing to happen; some sublime, some ridiculous but given especially (and I stress that this is another rumour from across the field) that the CAA are apparently none too pleased with the one frequency thing, surely, this is playing with fire?
I know that I am not alone in this one and I know that the SATCO occasionally comments on here (Called ‘The Mad Controller’ I think) and I wondered if he could maybe set the record straight?
Would be interested in hearing fellow Ppruners views on this one.
Best wishes,
BH
Last edited by Big Hilly; 7th Jul 2003 at 19:30.
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When I flew back from a jolly on Sunday it was relatively peaceful and on two frequencies, however.........
I am somewhat puzzled that you have decided to post this to a forum rather than contact me directly on the telephone, but I expect you do have your reasons for doing so.
In order that I can investigate your claim perhaps you can narrow down whether this situation ocurred on Saturday or Sunday and supply a more precise time. Then I can interview the staff on duty that day.
I would also treat with care rumours that you pick up in bars.
Anticipating your response.
SATCO
Biggin Hill
I am somewhat puzzled that you have decided to post this to a forum rather than contact me directly on the telephone, but I expect you do have your reasons for doing so.
In order that I can investigate your claim perhaps you can narrow down whether this situation ocurred on Saturday or Sunday and supply a more precise time. Then I can interview the staff on duty that day.
I would also treat with care rumours that you pick up in bars.
Anticipating your response.
SATCO
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We chuck the IFR stuf to 134.8 at weekends - can't remember ever using 129,4 at that time of day.
And Big Helly is obviously the model pilot who never makes long life story calls or gets readbacks wrong.
"utter chaos" is a simply ridiculous statement my friend. As have said many times they work very well ALL the time in the tower there.
And Big Helly is obviously the model pilot who never makes long life story calls or gets readbacks wrong.
"utter chaos" is a simply ridiculous statement my friend. As have said many times they work very well ALL the time in the tower there.
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Pandemonium,pilots stepping on transmissions (nothing unusual there then) jet traffic screaming to get a word in and Finally utter chaos. OK tell the truth, which controller upset you , and told you off. To use such emotive language is nothing short of scandalous. Remember when you point your finger at somebody THREE more are pointing at yourself
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Come on you lot!
Big Hilly was recounting his experience whilst inbound to Biggin. He clearly felt concerned at the availablity of an ATCO and surely it is not a crime to be concerned at your own welfare!!
If you read it again you will see that he comments on how professional the ATCO's are and his comment about it being "criminal" to only have one ATCO on is only a term of phrase to describe the situation. (just as I would say "it is criminal to eat curry without a lager").
For someone to register under a separate name (which they clearly have) to pass their comments to his post seems rather cowardly and somewhat ludicrous.
Perhaps he should have contacted the ATCO after landing to discuss his concerns rather than posting them on here. We all make mistakes don't we?
Big Hilly was recounting his experience whilst inbound to Biggin. He clearly felt concerned at the availablity of an ATCO and surely it is not a crime to be concerned at your own welfare!!
If you read it again you will see that he comments on how professional the ATCO's are and his comment about it being "criminal" to only have one ATCO on is only a term of phrase to describe the situation. (just as I would say "it is criminal to eat curry without a lager").
For someone to register under a separate name (which they clearly have) to pass their comments to his post seems rather cowardly and somewhat ludicrous.
Perhaps he should have contacted the ATCO after landing to discuss his concerns rather than posting them on here. We all make mistakes don't we?
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Ok, let's get the playground taunts out of the way first:
1. No, I wasn't upset or told off by a controller and I don't have some psychotic axe to grind with Biggin Hill, ATCO's, the Fuelers, the fire brigade, the bloke who cuts the grass or the lady wot does the tea’s Great Aunt Mary’s budgerigar.. . . .
2. No, I'm not hiding behind another username. I've been 'lurking' on PPrune for some time now. I just registered because I had hoped to have a sensible discussion about this.
OK, with the children dealt with. . . on with the show. . . .
TMC, thanks for your prompt reply.
It was Saturday - forget the time now –GA log book not with me - but not very late - certainly well before 6pm possibly even 5pm. I'll be honest though, it's nowhere near the first time it's happened . Now I know that there are bound to be lulls when nothing much happens and then suddenly all hell breaks loose - I for one couldn't do a controller’s job in a million years and I'm full of admiration for the guys and gals there at Biggin, but as an 'end user', I honestly feel that there is a problem here. When those busy times come as they tend to quite often at Biggin it does make life rather difficult and in my opinion dangerous when you're up in the air. For example, I've lost count of the number of times when I've been asked to report 3 miles deadside and haven't been able to get the call in until I was over the 03 numbers because the world and his wife were calling for Taxy, Circuits, Radio Checks etc etc. This simply doesn't happen when the frequencies are split.
Now, why did I post this on here rather than phone you? Well, with respect, we know how small the aviation world is and we certainly know how small the aviation world is at Biggin, so that probably answers your question. . . . I've seriously thought, however, of contacting CHIRP but I figured that a friendly, mature discussion on here may give me a better insight into what the problems are and be slightly less ‘official’. Believe me, there was no malice or ulterior motive involved here just the wish for more info.
As to the rumours - well, I did say that they ranged from the sublime to the ridiculous and which I why I didn't mention them. Am I mistaken, however, about the CAA's view on this subject?
Anyway, many thanks again for your prompt reply and I appreciate your help and frankness.
Best wishes,
BH
1. No, I wasn't upset or told off by a controller and I don't have some psychotic axe to grind with Biggin Hill, ATCO's, the Fuelers, the fire brigade, the bloke who cuts the grass or the lady wot does the tea’s Great Aunt Mary’s budgerigar.. . . .
2. No, I'm not hiding behind another username. I've been 'lurking' on PPrune for some time now. I just registered because I had hoped to have a sensible discussion about this.
OK, with the children dealt with. . . on with the show. . . .
TMC, thanks for your prompt reply.
It was Saturday - forget the time now –GA log book not with me - but not very late - certainly well before 6pm possibly even 5pm. I'll be honest though, it's nowhere near the first time it's happened . Now I know that there are bound to be lulls when nothing much happens and then suddenly all hell breaks loose - I for one couldn't do a controller’s job in a million years and I'm full of admiration for the guys and gals there at Biggin, but as an 'end user', I honestly feel that there is a problem here. When those busy times come as they tend to quite often at Biggin it does make life rather difficult and in my opinion dangerous when you're up in the air. For example, I've lost count of the number of times when I've been asked to report 3 miles deadside and haven't been able to get the call in until I was over the 03 numbers because the world and his wife were calling for Taxy, Circuits, Radio Checks etc etc. This simply doesn't happen when the frequencies are split.
Now, why did I post this on here rather than phone you? Well, with respect, we know how small the aviation world is and we certainly know how small the aviation world is at Biggin, so that probably answers your question. . . . I've seriously thought, however, of contacting CHIRP but I figured that a friendly, mature discussion on here may give me a better insight into what the problems are and be slightly less ‘official’. Believe me, there was no malice or ulterior motive involved here just the wish for more info.
As to the rumours - well, I did say that they ranged from the sublime to the ridiculous and which I why I didn't mention them. Am I mistaken, however, about the CAA's view on this subject?
Anyway, many thanks again for your prompt reply and I appreciate your help and frankness.
Best wishes,
BH
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Big Hilly has a point, maybe, but maintaining a split frequency is not the simple answer. Even when both frequencies are operational at weekends, either one of them is subject to extremely busy periods due to the nature of the traffic at Biggin Hill . For a start most of the clubs run a similar system for booking students lessons. This results in a " everybody out/ everybody in "
situation with either the tower or approach being busy. Ask the clubs to change this and they are obviously reluctant to do so, since they all want to get the majority of flying hours they can.
Secondly at about 1100 every weekend you get the private owners who, having had a good breakfast decide that they are now ready to go to LFAT ( and similar such places for lunch). This of course coincides with the end of the first club details and the begining of the second lot ( give or take 30 mins).
Middle of they day ,basically very quiet.
Then we have the period refered to by Big Hilly, when the world and his dog, who went out in the morning want to get back so they can drink and have a chat before going home. Yes sometimes it does get busy ,but to use the phrases in original posting I repeat is scandalous. Running out of space see next posting
Big hilly says he wants a reasonable discussion I would suggest this is not the place. Should the CAA SRG read this, and I am sure they will they will be given totally the wrong impression. Utter chaos ,screaming jet pilots,etc. Come on Big Hilly be precise with your times so the SATCO can listen for himself.
There is of course an answer.
Telephone booking out. Costly and time consuming, Pilots would never be able to get through and ATC would have to have an extra dedicated member of staff.
Make airfield strictly PPR.
Finally ATC would issue departure slots and arrival slots based on commercial TFC that has planned in/ out.
At the momment Biggin ATC operates a system that allows most pilots to come and go as they please. Comments like the first posting will do nothing to solve the situation . How would he like it if if his capabilities were described as shambolic and chaotic.
I trust this comment is not to childish for him and would repeat an earlier posting Come out of the closset and talk to ATC direct.
One more thing many apologies for spelling mistakes as you can tell I'm not a typist
situation with either the tower or approach being busy. Ask the clubs to change this and they are obviously reluctant to do so, since they all want to get the majority of flying hours they can.
Secondly at about 1100 every weekend you get the private owners who, having had a good breakfast decide that they are now ready to go to LFAT ( and similar such places for lunch). This of course coincides with the end of the first club details and the begining of the second lot ( give or take 30 mins).
Middle of they day ,basically very quiet.
Then we have the period refered to by Big Hilly, when the world and his dog, who went out in the morning want to get back so they can drink and have a chat before going home. Yes sometimes it does get busy ,but to use the phrases in original posting I repeat is scandalous. Running out of space see next posting
Big hilly says he wants a reasonable discussion I would suggest this is not the place. Should the CAA SRG read this, and I am sure they will they will be given totally the wrong impression. Utter chaos ,screaming jet pilots,etc. Come on Big Hilly be precise with your times so the SATCO can listen for himself.
There is of course an answer.
Telephone booking out. Costly and time consuming, Pilots would never be able to get through and ATC would have to have an extra dedicated member of staff.
Make airfield strictly PPR.
Finally ATC would issue departure slots and arrival slots based on commercial TFC that has planned in/ out.
At the momment Biggin ATC operates a system that allows most pilots to come and go as they please. Comments like the first posting will do nothing to solve the situation . How would he like it if if his capabilities were described as shambolic and chaotic.
I trust this comment is not to childish for him and would repeat an earlier posting Come out of the closset and talk to ATC direct.
One more thing many apologies for spelling mistakes as you can tell I'm not a typist
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wizpigbig,
Thanks for your reply. I say again: The ATCO's at Biggin provide an excellent service, they are highly professional and friendly. I have no complaints WHATSOEVER about them and I CERTAINLY dont feel them to be 'shambolic and chaotic' - I mean that sincerely. My complaint is about the two frequency issue and NOTHING more! In my opinion it is SIMPLY UNSAFE!
I'm sorry that you felt my original phrases 'scandelous' - but they were, nonetheless, true. I'm sorry but it's that simple.
Best wishes,
BH
Thanks for your reply. I say again: The ATCO's at Biggin provide an excellent service, they are highly professional and friendly. I have no complaints WHATSOEVER about them and I CERTAINLY dont feel them to be 'shambolic and chaotic' - I mean that sincerely. My complaint is about the two frequency issue and NOTHING more! In my opinion it is SIMPLY UNSAFE!
I'm sorry that you felt my original phrases 'scandelous' - but they were, nonetheless, true. I'm sorry but it's that simple.
Best wishes,
BH
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Does Biggin Hill have ATSAs , if they do then telephone booking out is an immediate help to the ATCO.
We operate a system of booking out via the telephone , it works well and takes some of the workload off the ATCO, even if they don't have an ATSA it would still ease some of the ATCOs workload by allowing the ATCO to take the call when they are able to do so ie : ususally only a few seconds delay but definitely has advantages over booking out over the RT.
In the Flying Club and in our Self Briefing Unit we have instructions printed out and displayed for the correct format for pilots in which to bookout over the Telephone.
When we get the occasional person forgetting and booking out over the RT it can up my workload considerably.
We operate a system of booking out via the telephone , it works well and takes some of the workload off the ATCO, even if they don't have an ATSA it would still ease some of the ATCOs workload by allowing the ATCO to take the call when they are able to do so ie : ususally only a few seconds delay but definitely has advantages over booking out over the RT.
In the Flying Club and in our Self Briefing Unit we have instructions printed out and displayed for the correct format for pilots in which to bookout over the Telephone.
When we get the occasional person forgetting and booking out over the RT it can up my workload considerably.
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Now I Know why I've never bothered with this before. Big Hilly you have completely missed the point Just because you could not follow what was going on dont assume the ATCO couldnt. But then you are a pilot and I forgive you .OUT
Flower we do have ATSA but with all the A/C based at biggin It would literally be a full time job just answering the phone
Flower we do have ATSA but with all the A/C based at biggin It would literally be a full time job just answering the phone
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Just because you could not follow what was going on dont assume the ATCO couldnt. But then you are a pilot and I forgive you .OUT
It would literally be a full time job just answering the phone
wizpigbig you obviously work at Biggin - so maybe you can tell me from the Watch Log what time exactly 134.8 was shut down on that busy Saturday afternoon?
ONCE AGAIN
I'm just concerned with safety. As a pilot I can just about manage to read and write and tie my own shoe-laces etc etc. . . . and can even just about manage to keep up with the hectic R/T of Biggin.I really don't want to turn this into yet another controller/pilot battle as I have no battle with the Fine ATCO's of Biggin.
Anyway, Sod it. I've obviously wasted my time trying to gleen some sensible info and get some answers off the record. Maybe I should have just filed a MOR or CHIRP report, written to the CAA or even turned a blind eye and waited for something awful to happen?
I have been civil and polite throughout all of this - perhaps you could show me the same courtesy?
BH "OUT"!
Wizpigbig,
If your attitude "in real life" is similar to the one that comes across on PPRuNe *I* wouldn't want to speak to you directly!
Looking at this thread, I can see why the originator felt the need for anonymity...
If your attitude "in real life" is similar to the one that comes across on PPRuNe *I* wouldn't want to speak to you directly!
Looking at this thread, I can see why the originator felt the need for anonymity...
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Seriously, the situation of booking out by phone has made a big differance at both the Airfield I work at now and my previous one . We went from a situation of booking out over the RT , loads of work for the ATCO with backup required from the ATSA, people calling up at a time when you really needed to be doing something with more urgency, to one where all ground movements are expected, greater planning time and more RT time available.
The workload on the ATSA is no more just better planned for them , as they are able to correctly prepare Flight progress strips for us , which again makes there Life easier with logging all movements. We have a lot of GA to working with us intermixed with Commercial aircraft , our ATSAs do not spend all their time on the phone , it may just be an option to consider at some point.
The bookout procedure via the telephone takes seconds as all comply with the format displayed by the phone where they book out.
The workload on the ATSA is no more just better planned for them , as they are able to correctly prepare Flight progress strips for us , which again makes there Life easier with logging all movements. We have a lot of GA to working with us intermixed with Commercial aircraft , our ATSAs do not spend all their time on the phone , it may just be an option to consider at some point.
The bookout procedure via the telephone takes seconds as all comply with the format displayed by the phone where they book out.
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I guess as an owner-pilot at Biggin, I must put in my 2p worth.
I have operated an Aztec there for a while now and while there have definitely been moments when the one frequency is rather frenetic, I have never, never, I repeat never experienced a time when I have felt that safety has been compromised.
There have been times when I have been gob-smacked at the ability of the controller to stay on top of so much traffic. Sometimes it has literally seemed super-human that one person can process so much information so accurately, so quickly, and make so few mistakes (usually, I must stress, none.) And this in an environment of such diversity, from R22s and Enstroms, to 150s, to moths to fast singles, faster twins and much faster jets.
I am sure that if the controllers felt that it was unsafe they would voice their opinions to The Mad Controller, and he (whom I have know many years) is a careful, thoughtful man, as much a pilot as a controller (YAKs I believe?), and would act.
It is also their butts which are on the line. If they fall short of their duty of care and the result is a death they risk not only their livlihood but even their liberty.
OTOH, if Big Hilly feels, as an aircraft commander, that a situation that threatens the safety of the aircraft and pax in his care has arisen, he too has a duty to take action.
Let us see through his rather emotive (and arguably unhelpful) language to the message behind it. It is not only his own life, but the lives of hundreds of others that he feels obliged to protect, so give the guy some air to make his point, if he feels that this is the best place.
I can understand his reluctance to talk to TMC directly (though he will find him to be a charming and receptive man) but there are many other routes open to him, from CHIRP, MOR, quiet phone call to the CAA.
If the CAA asks me, I will tell them that I do not perceive there to be a problem. But if they find evidence that there is a problem they will act accordingly.
That's what a no-blame culture of safety is about.
[/RAMBLE]
W
I have operated an Aztec there for a while now and while there have definitely been moments when the one frequency is rather frenetic, I have never, never, I repeat never experienced a time when I have felt that safety has been compromised.
There have been times when I have been gob-smacked at the ability of the controller to stay on top of so much traffic. Sometimes it has literally seemed super-human that one person can process so much information so accurately, so quickly, and make so few mistakes (usually, I must stress, none.) And this in an environment of such diversity, from R22s and Enstroms, to 150s, to moths to fast singles, faster twins and much faster jets.
I am sure that if the controllers felt that it was unsafe they would voice their opinions to The Mad Controller, and he (whom I have know many years) is a careful, thoughtful man, as much a pilot as a controller (YAKs I believe?), and would act.
It is also their butts which are on the line. If they fall short of their duty of care and the result is a death they risk not only their livlihood but even their liberty.
OTOH, if Big Hilly feels, as an aircraft commander, that a situation that threatens the safety of the aircraft and pax in his care has arisen, he too has a duty to take action.
Let us see through his rather emotive (and arguably unhelpful) language to the message behind it. It is not only his own life, but the lives of hundreds of others that he feels obliged to protect, so give the guy some air to make his point, if he feels that this is the best place.
I can understand his reluctance to talk to TMC directly (though he will find him to be a charming and receptive man) but there are many other routes open to him, from CHIRP, MOR, quiet phone call to the CAA.
If the CAA asks me, I will tell them that I do not perceive there to be a problem. But if they find evidence that there is a problem they will act accordingly.
That's what a no-blame culture of safety is about.
[/RAMBLE]
W
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wizpigbig,
I have been fortunate enough to be employed flying big jets (I currently fly 757's and 767's) for more years than I care to remember. God forbid, they even let me talk to the likes of Heathrow and JFK when I’ve managed to do up my shoelaces properly.
I have all too often seen the consequences of ‘Speaking Directly’; be it to management or even to ATC. The aviation industry is a small world and I would rather like to remain part of it for a few more years to come. This is the very reason that strict anonymity on Pprune exists and the very reason that CHIRP was founded.
As I said before. IF, as you imply you actually do work at Biggin. Maybe you or the SATCO could give us some facts. Namely:
What time was 134.8 stopped on Saturday?
What has been the percentage of 2 frequency operation versus 1 frequency at Biggin over, say, the past year.
And I ask again, am I mistaken in thinking that the CAA are of a similar mind to me regarding two frequency operations at Biggin?
Best wishes,
BH
I have been fortunate enough to be employed flying big jets (I currently fly 757's and 767's) for more years than I care to remember. God forbid, they even let me talk to the likes of Heathrow and JFK when I’ve managed to do up my shoelaces properly.
I have all too often seen the consequences of ‘Speaking Directly’; be it to management or even to ATC. The aviation industry is a small world and I would rather like to remain part of it for a few more years to come. This is the very reason that strict anonymity on Pprune exists and the very reason that CHIRP was founded.
As I said before. IF, as you imply you actually do work at Biggin. Maybe you or the SATCO could give us some facts. Namely:
What time was 134.8 stopped on Saturday?
What has been the percentage of 2 frequency operation versus 1 frequency at Biggin over, say, the past year.
And I ask again, am I mistaken in thinking that the CAA are of a similar mind to me regarding two frequency operations at Biggin?
Best wishes,
BH
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Big Hilly
Agree with your observations.....and I think you will find many more sharing your opinions.
The controllers are fine, the setup sometimes sucks.
Agree with your observations.....and I think you will find many more sharing your opinions.
The controllers are fine, the setup sometimes sucks.
Last edited by Woss goin on..?; 8th Jul 2003 at 05:33.
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guys guys guys
Look, this is/could be, a serious issue.
It makes intresting reading.
Personally, I am unable to comment.... BUT I dont read these threads to see people bickering, and slagging people/places off. Its not helpful, nor is it intresting.
Please give it a rest, and leave the bandwidth for the intresting, polite, discussions.
FW
Look, this is/could be, a serious issue.
It makes intresting reading.
Personally, I am unable to comment.... BUT I dont read these threads to see people bickering, and slagging people/places off. Its not helpful, nor is it intresting.
Please give it a rest, and leave the bandwidth for the intresting, polite, discussions.
FW