FAA PPL Query
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FAA PPL Query
I'm going to be going over to the US of A in a couple of months or so, and thought that I'd enjoy a bit of flying while I'm out there. Having chatted to a couple of people, it seems like I have a couple of options - either something based on my JAR PPL(A), which doesn't seem to require much more than form-filling, or an unrestricted FAA PPL(A) which requires an exam and flight test.
I'm thinking about the latter option - neither the exam or the test sound that bad, and the licence might be useful in the future. However, I've been looking at the requirements for licence issue on the FAA website. There's no problem with solo time, but I think I miss out on two of the dual requirements:
Now, an FAA cross-country is 50nm destination to destination, right? So I've never logged anything that counts as dual cross-country. Never done any night flying either.
Have I got the requirements right? At the moment it seems to me that I can get checked out and fly with a temporary licence, but I'd need 6 hours dual to fill in the blanks in my logbook + skills test to get a full licence? Hmmm...
I'm thinking about the latter option - neither the exam or the test sound that bad, and the licence might be useful in the future. However, I've been looking at the requirements for licence issue on the FAA website. There's no problem with solo time, but I think I miss out on two of the dual requirements:
A. Dual: 20 hours of flight training with an instructor on the Private Pilot areas of operation that includes:
1. 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a single engine airplane;
2. 3 hours of night flight training in a single engine airplane, that includes at least-
a. 1 cross-country flight of over 100 nm. total distance; and
b. 10 takeoffs and 10 landings with each involving a flight in the traffic pattern.
<snipped>
1. 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a single engine airplane;
2. 3 hours of night flight training in a single engine airplane, that includes at least-
a. 1 cross-country flight of over 100 nm. total distance; and
b. 10 takeoffs and 10 landings with each involving a flight in the traffic pattern.
<snipped>
Have I got the requirements right? At the moment it seems to me that I can get checked out and fly with a temporary licence, but I'd need 6 hours dual to fill in the blanks in my logbook + skills test to get a full licence? Hmmm...
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Evo,
I don't really know the FAA requirements, but I think you've got it at least basically right. But if I were you, I'd go for the first option.
Two reasons for this. The training that you'll need to get an FAA license will almost certainly require a Visa. That will restrict your choice of schools, because you'll have to use a school which is certified to issue Visas. It also adds to the paperwork.
The other reason is that I can think of very few benefits of the unrestricted license, so why bother.
Having said that, there is one restriction, although it is not really enforced - and that's if you want to do your night qualification in the US. The FARs allow you to add any rating to your foreign-based license. But since there's no such thing as a FAR night rating, you can't add that to your license, so it's not possible to solo at night on your foreign-based license unless you already hold a UK night qualification. The solution is to issue you a student license (for solo flight only) or an unrestricted FAA PPL (if you want to take pax at night).
(The CFI at the school I flew from, who is also an experienced examiner, was unaware of this, and had been allowing UK students to solo at night, after receiving the more stringent of the FAR/UK training requirements, for many years until I pointed it out to him. He then asked the FAA, who said that techinically, what I've said is correct, even though it's rather stupid. They keep meaning to change it, but since so many schools ignore the rule anyway there doesn't seem to be any real reason to bother changing it.)
FFF
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I don't really know the FAA requirements, but I think you've got it at least basically right. But if I were you, I'd go for the first option.
Two reasons for this. The training that you'll need to get an FAA license will almost certainly require a Visa. That will restrict your choice of schools, because you'll have to use a school which is certified to issue Visas. It also adds to the paperwork.
The other reason is that I can think of very few benefits of the unrestricted license, so why bother.
Having said that, there is one restriction, although it is not really enforced - and that's if you want to do your night qualification in the US. The FARs allow you to add any rating to your foreign-based license. But since there's no such thing as a FAR night rating, you can't add that to your license, so it's not possible to solo at night on your foreign-based license unless you already hold a UK night qualification. The solution is to issue you a student license (for solo flight only) or an unrestricted FAA PPL (if you want to take pax at night).
(The CFI at the school I flew from, who is also an experienced examiner, was unaware of this, and had been allowing UK students to solo at night, after receiving the more stringent of the FAR/UK training requirements, for many years until I pointed it out to him. He then asked the FAA, who said that techinically, what I've said is correct, even though it's rather stupid. They keep meaning to change it, but since so many schools ignore the rule anyway there doesn't seem to be any real reason to bother changing it.)
FFF
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Evo,
You need to be aware that getting a US licence on the basis of your UK licence is a more complicated than just 'filling in a few forms'. Since 9/11 the FAA need to verify that your UK licence is genuine and that you are who you say you are. The CAA have to confirm this data to the FAA.
Suggest you go to www.pplir.org and there is an article by Ole Henriksen that describes the procedure. If you are intending to go in a couple of months, you had better start things moving now.
Best of luck
You need to be aware that getting a US licence on the basis of your UK licence is a more complicated than just 'filling in a few forms'. Since 9/11 the FAA need to verify that your UK licence is genuine and that you are who you say you are. The CAA have to confirm this data to the FAA.
Suggest you go to www.pplir.org and there is an article by Ole Henriksen that describes the procedure. If you are intending to go in a couple of months, you had better start things moving now.
Best of luck
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Thanks FFF, and Rodger - a very useful link. Looking at that, there seems to be no benefit in the full licence (as you can attach an IR to a restricted licence).
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Been there, done that, and paid a sodding fortune for the privilege. FFF is absolutely right, there really is very little point in getting an unrestricted FAA PPL unless you are (a) planning to add ratings to it later on, or (b) don’t have time to convert your JAA licence.
If it’s reason (b) I’d strongly suggest you delay your trip until you have converted your licence. If you need convincing, here are some of the costs for getting an unrestricted FAA PPL, as of 3 months ago:
£65 M1 Visa (because you’re training for a licence / rating)
£15 FAA PPL written test prep book (essential IMHO)
$80 FAA PPL written test
$80 FAA 3rd class medical
$?? However much flight training you need to prepare for the flight test (including night hours if you don’t already have them).
$250 FAA flight test
$150 retest if you get a “discontinuation” (as I did after taking my test after 4 hours’ sleep and thinking I could handle it. I couldn’t)
An awful lot of cost, aggravation, & P/UT time, when with a bit of planning, you could turn up, convert your JAA licence, and off you go.
Oh yes, and that all assumes your FTO doesn’t get shut down by the state government 2 days before you arrive . . .
If it’s reason (b) I’d strongly suggest you delay your trip until you have converted your licence. If you need convincing, here are some of the costs for getting an unrestricted FAA PPL, as of 3 months ago:
£65 M1 Visa (because you’re training for a licence / rating)
£15 FAA PPL written test prep book (essential IMHO)
$80 FAA PPL written test
$80 FAA 3rd class medical
$?? However much flight training you need to prepare for the flight test (including night hours if you don’t already have them).
$250 FAA flight test
$150 retest if you get a “discontinuation” (as I did after taking my test after 4 hours’ sleep and thinking I could handle it. I couldn’t)
An awful lot of cost, aggravation, & P/UT time, when with a bit of planning, you could turn up, convert your JAA licence, and off you go.
Oh yes, and that all assumes your FTO doesn’t get shut down by the state government 2 days before you arrive . . .
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A point well made, G SXTY. I am planning on adding an IR in the future, but RodgerF's link suggests that you can add ratings to a restricted PPL.
One PPL skills test is enough, methinks.
One PPL skills test is enough, methinks.
Last edited by Evo; 3rd Jun 2003 at 21:28.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Absolutely, Evo. You can add any FAA rating to your foreign-based FAA license. This includes the IR, type ratings, class ratings, and so on. The only exception, as I said, is the night qualification, because as far as the FAA are concerned there is no such thing.
FFF
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FFF
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Correct FFF, your FAA licence will be restricted to the entitlements on your JAA licence, therefore to fly at night you will need to add it to your JAA licence. I have added the FAA IR to my FAA licence (which by the way dont forget entitles you to fly IMC on your JAA licence or even add the ticket if you so wish!), with no problem.
If you eventually decided you wanted to do the FAA CPL on passing it would then become a standalone licence and would no longer be dependant on your JAA licence being valid...
If you eventually decided you wanted to do the FAA CPL on passing it would then become a standalone licence and would no longer be dependant on your JAA licence being valid...
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Julian,
Minor point, but the FAA IR doesn't "entitle you to fly IMC on your JAA licence".
It entitles you to get an IMC rating added to your JAR license without any further training - but until you send the paperwork and cheque to the CAA, and get your license back with the IMC rating on it, you can't use it.
FFF
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Minor point, but the FAA IR doesn't "entitle you to fly IMC on your JAA licence".
It entitles you to get an IMC rating added to your JAR license without any further training - but until you send the paperwork and cheque to the CAA, and get your license back with the IMC rating on it, you can't use it.
FFF
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So a "UK Licence verification authorization for FAA licence validation" form to the CAA, a "Verification of Authenticity of Foreign Licence, Rating and Medical Certification" form to the FAA (plus the appropriate attachments). ...and that's it?
Thanks folks
Thanks folks
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FFF,
Not according to Simon White of CAA Licencing. If you hold a ICAO Licence with an instrument rating then you are entitled to exercise the privledges of an IMC Rating whilst in command of a 'G' Reg aircraft - even if you have not sent away for your IMC Rating to be added. It doesnt matter. You have exactly the same priveldges as if you had sent the £64 off, but you are in pocket and no hassle as its valid as long as your IR is.
He was questioned by a JAA/FAA Instructor friend of mine, with specific mention of the FAA IR.
Julian.
Not according to Simon White of CAA Licencing. If you hold a ICAO Licence with an instrument rating then you are entitled to exercise the privledges of an IMC Rating whilst in command of a 'G' Reg aircraft - even if you have not sent away for your IMC Rating to be added. It doesnt matter. You have exactly the same priveldges as if you had sent the £64 off, but you are in pocket and no hassle as its valid as long as your IR is.
He was questioned by a JAA/FAA Instructor friend of mine, with specific mention of the FAA IR.
Julian.
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Perhaps I can extend this debate into the rotary arena. Things now seem to get a bit more comlpicated. The UK / JAR (H) is type specific whereas the FAA (H) isn't. Here there is a real advantage of having a full FAA PPL as the restricted only allows you to fly to the privileges of the UK / JAR ratings - in other words type specific.
No point then in having a restricted FAA (H) in the U.K so gaining the unrestricted is the obvious route. Now comes the cost. I am advised that I need 10 hours - 15 hours of dual (thats nearly half of my original rotary course) to convert to Uncle Sams way of doing things. I then have £350 flight test fee and if i do this in the U.K I also have travel costs to pay. I suspect I would be better off getting a new type on my UK licence.
No point then in having a restricted FAA (H) in the U.K so gaining the unrestricted is the obvious route. Now comes the cost. I am advised that I need 10 hours - 15 hours of dual (thats nearly half of my original rotary course) to convert to Uncle Sams way of doing things. I then have £350 flight test fee and if i do this in the U.K I also have travel costs to pay. I suspect I would be better off getting a new type on my UK licence.
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Julian,
I wrote to the CAA to get them to confirm this, and they wrote back and said you can only operate under IFR or in accordance with IFR in UNCONTROLLED airspace on an ICAO licence with IR, but that they WILL issue IMC rating....for the 64 quid fee of course....allowing IFR ops in up to class D.
This confusion stemmed from the CAA website which used to say "has the same privileges as the IMC rating", but was later ammended to "outside controlled airspace only".
Yea, bollocks I know......
Cu
EA
I wrote to the CAA to get them to confirm this, and they wrote back and said you can only operate under IFR or in accordance with IFR in UNCONTROLLED airspace on an ICAO licence with IR, but that they WILL issue IMC rating....for the 64 quid fee of course....allowing IFR ops in up to class D.
This confusion stemmed from the CAA website which used to say "has the same privileges as the IMC rating", but was later ammended to "outside controlled airspace only".
Yea, bollocks I know......
Cu
EA
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EA,
Who was the response from and when?
Simon Whites response came at the training exhibition in April this year so fairly recent. Spoke to the instructor involved yesterday again to confirm and stands by it, none of this came from the CAA website but from face-to-face with CAA licencing.
Who was the response from and when?
Simon Whites response came at the training exhibition in April this year so fairly recent. Spoke to the instructor involved yesterday again to confirm and stands by it, none of this came from the CAA website but from face-to-face with CAA licencing.
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On a restricted FAA PPL issued on the basis of a JAA one, do I need a biennial flight review? The FBO where I fly when I am in America says I don't, but people here seem undecided.
Tim
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tmmorris - yes, afraid you do need a BFR on your "reciprocal" PPL. There are some schools in the USA who don't know the rules, but it's stated pretty clearly in several places. Not that I can put my finger on them right now, but as a 20+ year holder of a reciprocal...
You'll probably have to have a "checkout" before you rent, and a BFR isn't a lot more than that anyway.
You'll probably have to have a "checkout" before you rent, and a BFR isn't a lot more than that anyway.
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Julian,
I binned the letter I'm afraid, but I got it in April. They basically said that I could file and fly IFR with an ICAO IR but NOT in controlled airspace. They included a section of the ANO which states the "NOT in controlled airspace"...thing....
{edit cause I've just found the relevant bit in the ANO}
ANO 2000, Part 4, Article 21, Paragraph 4 (a) says that the CAA will recognise a foreign rating / licence but (a)(ii) states:
"Does not entitle the holder to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying"
I'll send it to you if I find it, if not, might be worth writing to them yourself, maybe they have changed their mind...
Cheers
EA
I binned the letter I'm afraid, but I got it in April. They basically said that I could file and fly IFR with an ICAO IR but NOT in controlled airspace. They included a section of the ANO which states the "NOT in controlled airspace"...thing....
{edit cause I've just found the relevant bit in the ANO}
ANO 2000, Part 4, Article 21, Paragraph 4 (a) says that the CAA will recognise a foreign rating / licence but (a)(ii) states:
"Does not entitle the holder to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying"
I'll send it to you if I find it, if not, might be worth writing to them yourself, maybe they have changed their mind...
Cheers
EA
Last edited by englishal; 6th Jun 2003 at 13:50.
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EA,
Beat you to it!
Have written to FCL to get them to confirm the situation.
I will post the response on here when it arrives - as you say though, response may change again next week
Julian.
Beat you to it!
Have written to FCL to get them to confirm the situation.
I will post the response on here when it arrives - as you say though, response may change again next week
Julian.
