Different instructors?
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Different instructors?
OK, so I'm retraining having last had a valid licence in 1989, and I'm doing OK with the actual flying.
But satisfying various different instructors turns out to be non-trivial.
For example they each have their own versions of exactly what should be done on an EFATO (all of which sound perfectly sensible and plausible, BTW, and totally irrelevant as this particular training organisation looks after its aeroplanes properly and hasn't had an engine failure since 1930-something), not all of which agree exactly with what's printed in the club's checklist.
So, do I:
(a) learn and do what's in the club checklist, and tell each instructor who complains that that's what I'm doing
(b) learn and remember each instructor's preferences and fly that way when I'm with that instructor
(c) find out who's going to be the examiner for my skills test, ensure I fly with him, learn his preferred method, and tell all the other instructors to piss off?
But satisfying various different instructors turns out to be non-trivial.
For example they each have their own versions of exactly what should be done on an EFATO (all of which sound perfectly sensible and plausible, BTW, and totally irrelevant as this particular training organisation looks after its aeroplanes properly and hasn't had an engine failure since 1930-something), not all of which agree exactly with what's printed in the club's checklist.
So, do I:
(a) learn and do what's in the club checklist, and tell each instructor who complains that that's what I'm doing
(b) learn and remember each instructor's preferences and fly that way when I'm with that instructor
(c) find out who's going to be the examiner for my skills test, ensure I fly with him, learn his preferred method, and tell all the other instructors to piss off?
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Do not try to learn each instructor's preference nor try to second guess the examiner's. The important thing is that you learn a single process that will help you when you have that emergency. When the emergency hits, you need to be absolutely clear as to what you are going to do. Your training should be re-inforcing a single methodology.
Discuss with each instructor what your strategy is going to be, on the ground before you fly together. Explain your quandry regarding the different techniques, explain the decision you have come to about the appropraite technique and ask that the instructor teaches you YOUR technique when you are in the air.
It is upto each instructor to justify any variation from the club checklist - this should be your starting point. But have this discussion on the ground, and once you and the instructors have agreed a technique they should stick to it when flying with you. The examiner should be impressed that you have thought about the problem and may have some ADVICE to offer, but can only fail you if you do something unsafe when following your procedure.
BTW: Every flight that the engine does not fail is taking the club one flight closer to the flight when it will! The world's most perfect maintenance system cannot guarantee no in-flight engine failures.
Good luck with your flying
Discuss with each instructor what your strategy is going to be, on the ground before you fly together. Explain your quandry regarding the different techniques, explain the decision you have come to about the appropraite technique and ask that the instructor teaches you YOUR technique when you are in the air.
It is upto each instructor to justify any variation from the club checklist - this should be your starting point. But have this discussion on the ground, and once you and the instructors have agreed a technique they should stick to it when flying with you. The examiner should be impressed that you have thought about the problem and may have some ADVICE to offer, but can only fail you if you do something unsafe when following your procedure.
BTW: Every flight that the engine does not fail is taking the club one flight closer to the flight when it will! The world's most perfect maintenance system cannot guarantee no in-flight engine failures.
Good luck with your flying
Last edited by tacpot; 21st Apr 2003 at 16:13.
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I agree with tacpot.
You should be being taught what is on the checklist and also i suspect in the club's pilot order book. Having just completed my cpl, you are being examined on adherence to the checklist amongst everything else.
I'm sure you know this already, but try and keep the same instructor if possible. Continuity is key.
Best of luck
You should be being taught what is on the checklist and also i suspect in the club's pilot order book. Having just completed my cpl, you are being examined on adherence to the checklist amongst everything else.
I'm sure you know this already, but try and keep the same instructor if possible. Continuity is key.
Best of luck
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Wombat,
I have had four instructors, mainly because because they keep ******ing off to Airlines and stuff. Anyway I reckon it has cost me five hours. The biggest problems were the use of three during my nav training. Everyone had his own ideas and I had to do a small re-learning exercise to 'accomodate' each of their preferences.
This has really wound me up. No matter what strategy I decided to adopt it just became tiresome trying to explain why I did what I did. Even if I tried to point out that I had been shown a different method during the briefing it became a ten minute discusion to resolve/explain/re-learn the issue. I have complained to the CFI about an apparent lack of school standard for the methods they teach.
If you can do "C" then do. If you are like me then "A" and "B" will be frustrating and costly for you.
Good luck!
I have had four instructors, mainly because because they keep ******ing off to Airlines and stuff. Anyway I reckon it has cost me five hours. The biggest problems were the use of three during my nav training. Everyone had his own ideas and I had to do a small re-learning exercise to 'accomodate' each of their preferences.
This has really wound me up. No matter what strategy I decided to adopt it just became tiresome trying to explain why I did what I did. Even if I tried to point out that I had been shown a different method during the briefing it became a ten minute discusion to resolve/explain/re-learn the issue. I have complained to the CFI about an apparent lack of school standard for the methods they teach.
If you can do "C" then do. If you are like me then "A" and "B" will be frustrating and costly for you.
Good luck!
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sop.s
It would seem to me that the people who are teaching you need to get there act together with regard to there SOP,s.
It is always good to fly with a number of instructors as people have strengths in diferent areas of instruction and hopefully you will pick up the best bits from all of them.
The last thing to remember is that a check list is a CHECK LIST not a DO LIST.
It is always good to fly with a number of instructors as people have strengths in diferent areas of instruction and hopefully you will pick up the best bits from all of them.
The last thing to remember is that a check list is a CHECK LIST not a DO LIST.
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As for suggestion (c), is it definitely allowed? I thought I remembered someone at my flying school saying that I had to pick an examiner from the three available but it couldn't be one of those with whom I'd flown.
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drauk
I can confirm that is what I have been told too.
And to quote BEagle:
I can confirm that is what I have been told too.
And to quote BEagle:
It's only JAR-FCL PPL Skill Tests which may not be conducted by an FE who has also instructed the applicant; that doesn't apply to NPPL Skill Tests nor, incidentally, IMC Rating Skill Tests.
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I must admit when I am teaching people in the same situation as yourself I usually ask them how they where taught to deal with it.
The main reason for this is that if the method is different from what I normally teach but it is workable i leave them to it. All the instructor is going to do is create confussion by trying to break established habits. And if something really goes wrong the pilot will do a mixture of both methods possibly leaving something out.
The only exception to this is wing low approaches. Which i think are fundamentally gash and asking for trouble. Wing drop in a Tomahawk at 200ft, sod that for a game of solders.
MJ
The main reason for this is that if the method is different from what I normally teach but it is workable i leave them to it. All the instructor is going to do is create confussion by trying to break established habits. And if something really goes wrong the pilot will do a mixture of both methods possibly leaving something out.
The only exception to this is wing low approaches. Which i think are fundamentally gash and asking for trouble. Wing drop in a Tomahawk at 200ft, sod that for a game of solders.
MJ
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Odds are, they're probably all correct in what they're actually teaching you as good flying habits - with a few exceptions most things in flying have more than one way to do it.
Problem is they're clearly not singing from the same hymn-sheet, which is poor practice in itself when teaching an ab-initio student (which with a 14 year gap is effectively what you are). You need consistency until you're properly back in the groove again, then is the time to start using different techniques and starting to work out what you are most comfortable with (rather than what just works).
I'd suggest either having a word with all of them and politely asking for a bit more consistency, or simply arranging to try and fly exclusively with whichever instructor you feel most comfortable with.
P
N.B. Re: wing-down .v. crabbed, it does depend a lot upon the aeroplane. Certain aeroplanes only handle crosswinds well with wing-down (the Shadow and Tristar for example) whilst others really do need crabbed - the PA38 or G109b being two obvious ones. Some other aeroplanes will happily accept either, most of the high wing Cessnas for example. But again, I'd suggest using something that both YOU are comfortable with, AND suits the aeroplane. Don't believe the people who tell you that only one method or the other will work, it simply isn't true, except for certain types.
Problem is they're clearly not singing from the same hymn-sheet, which is poor practice in itself when teaching an ab-initio student (which with a 14 year gap is effectively what you are). You need consistency until you're properly back in the groove again, then is the time to start using different techniques and starting to work out what you are most comfortable with (rather than what just works).
I'd suggest either having a word with all of them and politely asking for a bit more consistency, or simply arranging to try and fly exclusively with whichever instructor you feel most comfortable with.
P
N.B. Re: wing-down .v. crabbed, it does depend a lot upon the aeroplane. Certain aeroplanes only handle crosswinds well with wing-down (the Shadow and Tristar for example) whilst others really do need crabbed - the PA38 or G109b being two obvious ones. Some other aeroplanes will happily accept either, most of the high wing Cessnas for example. But again, I'd suggest using something that both YOU are comfortable with, AND suits the aeroplane. Don't believe the people who tell you that only one method or the other will work, it simply isn't true, except for certain types.
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I had several different instructors during my PPL training and I had few problems with the different teaching styles. When I had to have an instructor as a one off because by usual instructor was away most of the time it was ok because they monitored what I was doing and gave me pointers that helped. The one exception was when one instructor tried to teach me wing down for cross winds in a PA28, I couldnt get to grips with it so just went back to crab. That may have made things easier when I went to the other end of the country and finished my training in a PA38 as having to unlearn the wing down may have been a disaster. The hardest thing I found to learn was having confidence in myself once an instructor helped me learn and find that things got easier.
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Thanks folks
I'd already decided that (a) sounded like the right answer (including the bit about explaining it to the instructor before take off). Always nice to know one's got something right, however.
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I find it is most useful to stick like glue to one instructor while learning a particular aspect of flying eg circuits / stalls / navigating / whatever, then after the task is mastered fly with other instructors to get their "take" on things and broaden your horizons. More than one way to skin a cat and all that......
Woodey
Woodey
Chopping & changing instructors each flight isn't the bst thing to do but then sticking to a single instructor & never flying with a different one isn't a good thing either.
No instructor knows the lot. Some amount of flying with a different instructor can be very beneficial.
I reckon that a change for a while is a good thing from time to time. A change can also be beneficial if you're just not getting something. A change of instructor style or technique might be all you need to advance.
No instructor knows the lot. Some amount of flying with a different instructor can be very beneficial.
I reckon that a change for a while is a good thing from time to time. A change can also be beneficial if you're just not getting something. A change of instructor style or technique might be all you need to advance.
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Current thinking (at least what was put to me in my FIC last year) is the CAA don't want us to teach wing down.
Apparently even if the plane is easier to handle on final approach it is still safer to crab thus reducing the risk of Spinning on approach.
Mind you all it takes is a change in the commitee at the CAA and the policy will be reversed. I was also told that i would fail my CPL and IR if i did a wing low approach during the flight test.
If any examiners out there can confirm or refute this I will be happy to stand corrected
MJ
Apparently even if the plane is easier to handle on final approach it is still safer to crab thus reducing the risk of Spinning on approach.
Mind you all it takes is a change in the commitee at the CAA and the policy will be reversed. I was also told that i would fail my CPL and IR if i did a wing low approach during the flight test.
If any examiners out there can confirm or refute this I will be happy to stand corrected
MJ
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When I started my PPL I had several different instructors at the beginning and felt like I was going backwards. Each was right but they all had their own style of doing things. I managed to go with just 2 different instructors in the end and this was much better for me.
The person who takes you for your skills test is only allowed a limited amount of training time with you, something like 5 hours or something ??????
The guy who took me for my skills test was one of the many instructors I had at the beginning. He was far more strict about minor things than the others so I avoided training with him as he made me feel totally useless if I didn't do things his way. Needless to say that when the skills test came and I knew who was examining me I feared the worst. The fears were unfounded as he was far more relaxed and I actually enjoyed it in the end.
The person who takes you for your skills test is only allowed a limited amount of training time with you, something like 5 hours or something ??????
The guy who took me for my skills test was one of the many instructors I had at the beginning. He was far more strict about minor things than the others so I avoided training with him as he made me feel totally useless if I didn't do things his way. Needless to say that when the skills test came and I knew who was examining me I feared the worst. The fears were unfounded as he was far more relaxed and I actually enjoyed it in the end.
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IMHO it is better to fly with different instructors. Students who stick to one instructor often are more stressed come test day when they have to fly with someone new. Students who fly with different instructors are often more relaxed with the examiner and fly better on test as a result. Also as has already been mentioned they get the benefit of the combined experience of all their instructors. 
