'They're down there because we're up here'.
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Sorry Squadgy
Methinks you underestimate the job and knowledge required to be an aerodrome controller!
I would suggest that a FISOs level of proficiency is equivalant to an ATCO for the role in which they operate - it has to be. I wouldn't expect a FISO to be able to sit in the GMC's position at EGLL, and I wouldnt expect an ATCO to be able to work the FIS position at Duxford without the required training and licences, in the same way as which a pilot of a 747 should be as proficent as a pilot of a Beech Duchess.....
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So, does anybody notice any difference in the politeness and helpfullness received when comparing civil to military controllers?
When I first started using the radio during training, I had a kind of preconception that the mil. people would feel more 'put upon' having to deal with a Piper or Cessna buzzing around just outside their zone - surely they'd have better things to do? I am glad to say that I was proved wrong and most people I have spoken to have been really helpful.
I only ask, because I was shouted at for the very first time on the way down to Duxford by the approach controller at one of the Lincolnshire RAF fields. All I did was ask her for clarification of a clearance to penetrate the MATZ (if in doubt ask!) and was treated to a loud tut, a shouted AFFIRM, and a long sigh! Not really a problem - it was quite busy and I probably just called at the wrong moment, but it just made me think. There does often seem to be a VERY SLIGHT undertone of 'bloody amateurs' sometimes.
I know the mil. guys are often also operating on HF frequencies at the same time, or may be running 2 or even 3 MATZ's (as Linton/Fenton/Leeming often seem to). Please remember that we can't always tell just how busy you are from our end.
Anyway, just totting up, and I spoke to a total of 12 controllers that day and all but two were exactly what I'd expect.
[Edit: My previous comment deleted 'cos I thought better of it].
When I first started using the radio during training, I had a kind of preconception that the mil. people would feel more 'put upon' having to deal with a Piper or Cessna buzzing around just outside their zone - surely they'd have better things to do? I am glad to say that I was proved wrong and most people I have spoken to have been really helpful.
I only ask, because I was shouted at for the very first time on the way down to Duxford by the approach controller at one of the Lincolnshire RAF fields. All I did was ask her for clarification of a clearance to penetrate the MATZ (if in doubt ask!) and was treated to a loud tut, a shouted AFFIRM, and a long sigh! Not really a problem - it was quite busy and I probably just called at the wrong moment, but it just made me think. There does often seem to be a VERY SLIGHT undertone of 'bloody amateurs' sometimes.
I know the mil. guys are often also operating on HF frequencies at the same time, or may be running 2 or even 3 MATZ's (as Linton/Fenton/Leeming often seem to). Please remember that we can't always tell just how busy you are from our end.
Anyway, just totting up, and I spoke to a total of 12 controllers that day and all but two were exactly what I'd expect.
[Edit: My previous comment deleted 'cos I thought better of it].
Last edited by knobbygb; 10th Apr 2003 at 03:37.
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Knobby G - interesting, intelligent post marred by the last clause.
Flower is right most ATC'ers are dead helpful. On my way home from Kemble late Sat afternoon, I had no help from Lakenheath and maneouvered to avoid somethin 'kin huge on long final to Mildehall. L'heath are generally really helpful but are now closed to VFR 128.9 traffic from 5pm (bst) - soooo.......
Stik: Norwich approach, G-stik, request
Norwich App: G-ik, pass your msg
Stik: Regional Presure setting and surface wind, pse for G-ik
Norwich App: Yarmouth 1027, surface wing 010-5G8
Stik: Roger copied, ik out
They gave me all I needed to make a safe approach to a private strip.
Nice guys and girls.
Stik
Flower is right most ATC'ers are dead helpful. On my way home from Kemble late Sat afternoon, I had no help from Lakenheath and maneouvered to avoid somethin 'kin huge on long final to Mildehall. L'heath are generally really helpful but are now closed to VFR 128.9 traffic from 5pm (bst) - soooo.......
Stik: Norwich approach, G-stik, request
Norwich App: G-ik, pass your msg
Stik: Regional Presure setting and surface wind, pse for G-ik
Norwich App: Yarmouth 1027, surface wing 010-5G8
Stik: Roger copied, ik out
They gave me all I needed to make a safe approach to a private strip.
Nice guys and girls.
Stik
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SSD
I was in the Arrer directly in front of you: We were both held for about 5 minutes while the Cosmic Wind ahead of me went straight into an aerobatic routine overhead from takeoff.
I personally enjoyed the display but perhaps this short delay was the cause of your intemperate r/t transmission, which I heard and was frankly a bit startled to hear argument over the airwaves.
In fact I think another flyer transmitted his disapproval as well.
The Rapide was on a commercial flight, and hell, whats a short delay: happens all the time in commercial.
The Trident crashed outside Heathrow in the 70s because the captain had been in a paddy just before takeoff and he forgot his flaps/slats.
I have two mottoes to guide me through life:
'Back off and be happy' and
'Get angry and die'
Safe (and stress-free) flying
Cusco
I was in the Arrer directly in front of you: We were both held for about 5 minutes while the Cosmic Wind ahead of me went straight into an aerobatic routine overhead from takeoff.
I personally enjoyed the display but perhaps this short delay was the cause of your intemperate r/t transmission, which I heard and was frankly a bit startled to hear argument over the airwaves.
In fact I think another flyer transmitted his disapproval as well.
The Rapide was on a commercial flight, and hell, whats a short delay: happens all the time in commercial.
The Trident crashed outside Heathrow in the 70s because the captain had been in a paddy just before takeoff and he forgot his flaps/slats.
I have two mottoes to guide me through life:
'Back off and be happy' and
'Get angry and die'
Safe (and stress-free) flying
Cusco
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SSD, please bear in mind that being more assertive is only one small step away from being more aggressive. The last thing I would want to hear on the radio is a bit of air rage because somebody feels a bit put out. If you have a problem with an AFISO or other ATC types, I would say get hold of them via phone after your flight and after their shift so as not to aggravate the problem further, especially when the issue is not safety related!
Getting back to your opening statement, as I’m a newly trained PPL, can I remind you of the saying navigate, communicate, aviate, or is it communicate, aviate, navigate, ooohhhh I’m confused again. I’ll have to ask the nice chap it the tower what I’m suppose to be doing.
D
Getting back to your opening statement, as I’m a newly trained PPL, can I remind you of the saying navigate, communicate, aviate, or is it communicate, aviate, navigate, ooohhhh I’m confused again. I’ll have to ask the nice chap it the tower what I’m suppose to be doing.
D
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Dufwer -
From the Cambridge dictionary:
Assertive: adjective
describes someone who behaves confidently and is not frightened to say what they want or believe:
Aggressive: adjective
behaving in an angry and violent way towards another person:
A world of difference, IMHO.
SSD
From the Cambridge dictionary:
Assertive: adjective
describes someone who behaves confidently and is not frightened to say what they want or believe:
Aggressive: adjective
behaving in an angry and violent way towards another person:
A world of difference, IMHO.
SSD
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SSD,
From the Oxford Dictionary :-
aggressive adj. 1 given to aggression; hostile. 2 forceful, self-assertive.
I believe Oxford have the upper-hand this year?
Definitions of words aside, I do not think having 'arguments' over the radio is a good idea. To date I have not had a bad experience with ATC, but like I said I'm newly qualified. I'm sure I'll have my turn someday. Hopefully I will apply a 'Back off and be happy' approach.
D
From the Oxford Dictionary :-
aggressive adj. 1 given to aggression; hostile. 2 forceful, self-assertive.
I believe Oxford have the upper-hand this year?
Definitions of words aside, I do not think having 'arguments' over the radio is a good idea. To date I have not had a bad experience with ATC, but like I said I'm newly qualified. I'm sure I'll have my turn someday. Hopefully I will apply a 'Back off and be happy' approach.
D
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Arguing over the RT is never good but it happens , yes I agree best left to a phone call .
However if someone who doesn't like what I do asks for an explaination I have no difficulty with that .
Truth be told if I had been at the holding point ready to depart and other aircraft got priority not for Air traffic reasons but reasons as were displayed at Duxford I to I think would have eventually lost my temper.
However if someone who doesn't like what I do asks for an explaination I have no difficulty with that .
Truth be told if I had been at the holding point ready to depart and other aircraft got priority not for Air traffic reasons but reasons as were displayed at Duxford I to I think would have eventually lost my temper.
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Dictionary
From Mirriam-Webster (http://m-w.com):
Main Entry: ag·gres·sive
Pronunciation: &-'gre-siv
Function: adjective
Date: 1824
1 a : tending toward or exhibiting aggression <aggressive behavior> b : marked by combative readiness <an aggressive fighter>
2 a : marked by obtrusive energy b : marked by driving forceful energy or initiative : ENTERPRISING <an aggressive salesman>
3 : strong or emphatic in effect or intent <aggressive colors> <aggressive flavors>
4 : more severe, intensive, or comprehensive than usual especially in dosage or extent <aggressive chemotherapy>
- ag·gres·sive·ly adverb
- ag·gres·sive·ness noun
- ag·gres·siv·i·ty /"a-"gre-'si-v&-tE/ noun
synonyms AGGRESSIVE, MILITANT, ASSERTIVE, SELF-ASSERTIVE mean obtrusively energetic especially in pursuing particular goals.
AGGRESSIVE implies a disposition to dominate often in disregard of others' rights or in determined and energetic pursuit of one's ends <was taught to be aggressive in his business dealings>.
MILITANT also implies a fighting disposition but suggests not self-seeking but devotion to a cause, movement, or principle <militant protesters held a rally against racism>.
ASSERTIVE suggests bold self-confidence in expression of opinion <the more assertive speakers dominated the forum>. SELF-ASSERTIVE connotes forwardness or brash self-confidence <a self-assertive young executive climbing the corporate ladder>.
Hope this helps the semantic debate!
Andy
Main Entry: ag·gres·sive
Pronunciation: &-'gre-siv
Function: adjective
Date: 1824
1 a : tending toward or exhibiting aggression <aggressive behavior> b : marked by combative readiness <an aggressive fighter>
2 a : marked by obtrusive energy b : marked by driving forceful energy or initiative : ENTERPRISING <an aggressive salesman>
3 : strong or emphatic in effect or intent <aggressive colors> <aggressive flavors>
4 : more severe, intensive, or comprehensive than usual especially in dosage or extent <aggressive chemotherapy>
- ag·gres·sive·ly adverb
- ag·gres·sive·ness noun
- ag·gres·siv·i·ty /"a-"gre-'si-v&-tE/ noun
synonyms AGGRESSIVE, MILITANT, ASSERTIVE, SELF-ASSERTIVE mean obtrusively energetic especially in pursuing particular goals.
AGGRESSIVE implies a disposition to dominate often in disregard of others' rights or in determined and energetic pursuit of one's ends <was taught to be aggressive in his business dealings>.
MILITANT also implies a fighting disposition but suggests not self-seeking but devotion to a cause, movement, or principle <militant protesters held a rally against racism>.
ASSERTIVE suggests bold self-confidence in expression of opinion <the more assertive speakers dominated the forum>. SELF-ASSERTIVE connotes forwardness or brash self-confidence <a self-assertive young executive climbing the corporate ladder>.
Hope this helps the semantic debate!
Andy
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Methinks you underestimate the job and knowledge required to be an aerodrome controller!
I think not !! I more than appreciate the level of knowledge and the work required of an Aerodrome Controller. If you reread my post you will see that in no why was I implying that a FISO could do an ADC job. I was however talking about levels of proficency, which as we're looking at definitions :
proficient adjective
skilled and experienced
I would hope you aren't suggesting that FISOs do not have the skills and experience required to do their job??
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SSD,
Personally, I would have shut down the engine, relaxed and watched the display by the Cosmic Wind......And also happily watched the Dragon Rapide get airborne, safe in the knowledge that all those pax were paying money into CAC's coffers, therefore enabling the Managing Director to feed his wife and kids for a few weeks to come.
One thing I learnt years ago is that flying should be a relaxing pastime. The poor chap who crashed the YAK52 at Compton Abbas last year is rumoured to have had a massive row with somebody just before he crashed.
Gawd 'elp us (A London colloquialism) the day it gets like driving a car round the M25!!!!!!!!
Chill...
Personally, I would have shut down the engine, relaxed and watched the display by the Cosmic Wind......And also happily watched the Dragon Rapide get airborne, safe in the knowledge that all those pax were paying money into CAC's coffers, therefore enabling the Managing Director to feed his wife and kids for a few weeks to come.
One thing I learnt years ago is that flying should be a relaxing pastime. The poor chap who crashed the YAK52 at Compton Abbas last year is rumoured to have had a massive row with somebody just before he crashed.
Gawd 'elp us (A London colloquialism) the day it gets like driving a car round the M25!!!!!!!!
Chill...
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Cusco
Not quite the case.
If you are interested, here is the report:
In fact it is suspected that the capt had a massive heart attack, leaving the FO suddenly and unexpectedly in charge in turbulent IMC.
The droops (not slats) were retracted instead of the flaps and the stall pusher overriden, causing a deep stall from which recovery was impossible.
As with most accidents, there was a chain of events and if the chain had been broken, the crash would have been avoided.
I've been through a recreation of the experience in Andy Mattock's Trident sim and it seems unbelievable that the crash could have happened when you are sitting in a danger free environment, already understanding what happened and why.
But I don't think this is too relevant to have a barney with ATC, more about breaking event chains.
The Trident crashed outside Heathrow in the 70s because the captain had been in a paddy just before takeoff and he forgot his flaps/slats.
If you are interested, here is the report:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/formal/garpi/garpi.htm
The droops (not slats) were retracted instead of the flaps and the stall pusher overriden, causing a deep stall from which recovery was impossible.
As with most accidents, there was a chain of events and if the chain had been broken, the crash would have been avoided.
I've been through a recreation of the experience in Andy Mattock's Trident sim and it seems unbelievable that the crash could have happened when you are sitting in a danger free environment, already understanding what happened and why.
But I don't think this is too relevant to have a barney with ATC, more about breaking event chains.
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Look, Squadgy, I don't want to row about this but you started your post with a quote saying that a FISO's level of proficiency is not the same as an ATCO and then seem to argue that this is not the case for the roles that each perform.
I wasn't suggesting that FISOs are not suitably skilled or experienced for the job they do, simply that I imagine an ATCO could have a quick read of the FISO rules and have a fair stab at doing the job - and, yes, I know it would have to be done under supervision in that situation. I'm not sure that a FISO could do the same at LL GMC.
The R/T is just a fraction of the knowledge and ability needed by a FISO or ATCO - the background knowledge needed by an ATCO is significantly greater that that needed by a FISO and covers all of that needed by a FISO.
Using your definition of proficient, I would just expect that an ATCO is likely to be more skilled and experienced in the whole air traffic business than a FISO.
I wasn't suggesting that FISOs are not suitably skilled or experienced for the job they do, simply that I imagine an ATCO could have a quick read of the FISO rules and have a fair stab at doing the job - and, yes, I know it would have to be done under supervision in that situation. I'm not sure that a FISO could do the same at LL GMC.
The R/T is just a fraction of the knowledge and ability needed by a FISO or ATCO - the background knowledge needed by an ATCO is significantly greater that that needed by a FISO and covers all of that needed by a FISO.
Using your definition of proficient, I would just expect that an ATCO is likely to be more skilled and experienced in the whole air traffic business than a FISO.
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I think this thread proves what should be obvious - that ATCOs, FISOs, and A/G operators are individuals . However well trained, some are better than others at coping when overloaded, some instinctively know how to deal with different sorts of people while some don't, most are nice and some are complete b@stards! To say nothing of the person who's had a row with their spouse, isn't feeling well, or just happens to be having a bad day. Yes, they should all be professional enough that it makes no difference, but we're all human beings, not machines.
I've had some wonderful service on the radio....the Birmingham ATCO who calmly and sympathetically directed a very new and lost PPL out of their airspace and on my route home...the Brize and Lyneham controllers who, despite being incredibly busy at the start of the Gulf War, directed a soon-to-be CPL(H) on a complicated nav ex through their airspace...the controllers at Waterford who directed me on my first trip to Ireland when we couldn't find any of their reporting points on the chart. And then there have been the impatient, brusque, incompetent, and those who think they're God. But unless there's a good reason, I prefer not to argue, or be aggressive, or even particularly assertive...though I do have a bit of a campaign to explain that helicopters don't need runways.
Because generally, unless someone's doing something dangerous, it doesn't matter that much. Flying is supposed to be fun. It can be stressful, but I really don't want to add to that stress, either my own or anyone else's. So usually I do as they ask, and if they're breaking the rules or doing it wrong or whatever, that's their problem, and I really don't see any reason to make it mine.
I've had some wonderful service on the radio....the Birmingham ATCO who calmly and sympathetically directed a very new and lost PPL out of their airspace and on my route home...the Brize and Lyneham controllers who, despite being incredibly busy at the start of the Gulf War, directed a soon-to-be CPL(H) on a complicated nav ex through their airspace...the controllers at Waterford who directed me on my first trip to Ireland when we couldn't find any of their reporting points on the chart. And then there have been the impatient, brusque, incompetent, and those who think they're God. But unless there's a good reason, I prefer not to argue, or be aggressive, or even particularly assertive...though I do have a bit of a campaign to explain that helicopters don't need runways.
Because generally, unless someone's doing something dangerous, it doesn't matter that much. Flying is supposed to be fun. It can be stressful, but I really don't want to add to that stress, either my own or anyone else's. So usually I do as they ask, and if they're breaking the rules or doing it wrong or whatever, that's their problem, and I really don't see any reason to make it mine.
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Whirlybird, I couldn't agree more, but in my opinion your wasting your breath. SSD said some time ago in this thread:
What I infer from this is that he feels any replies which don't agree with his are neither sensible nor worthwhile. Of course, perhaps I'm wrong and he thought the contrary points were worthwhile and from sensible people, but I doubt it. Each to their own...
As far as I am concerned this thread has now served its purpose. The point has been made, and some sensible guys (including some professional air traffickers) have replied with worthwhile observations.
