'They're down there because we're up here'.
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OK - maybe I'm being dense but why would A/G be better than FISO at an airport?
Because A/G is far less intrusive on airfield movements - the pilots can get on with it themselves.
Some FISOs, as SN pointed out, unfortunately seem to think they are ATCOs - without the associated training and ability. Others are overly conservative (understandably perhaps since it is in their interest to eliminate any risk of traffic conflict if a pilot so cleared enters then squats on the runway) in not allowing aeroplanes to enter the runway to depart when it is patently obvious to the pilot that it would be quite safe for them to do so. This causes delay (I know, I suffer it a lot since my home field went from A/G to FISO).
And some, unfortunately, are on a power trip at the expense of efficient airfield operation.
What does a FISO contribute positively? Absolutely zero IMHO.
SSD
Because A/G is far less intrusive on airfield movements - the pilots can get on with it themselves.
Some FISOs, as SN pointed out, unfortunately seem to think they are ATCOs - without the associated training and ability. Others are overly conservative (understandably perhaps since it is in their interest to eliminate any risk of traffic conflict if a pilot so cleared enters then squats on the runway) in not allowing aeroplanes to enter the runway to depart when it is patently obvious to the pilot that it would be quite safe for them to do so. This causes delay (I know, I suffer it a lot since my home field went from A/G to FISO).
And some, unfortunately, are on a power trip at the expense of efficient airfield operation.
What does a FISO contribute positively? Absolutely zero IMHO.
SSD
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I always thought the best cure for ATC/FISO/AG hassles was to leave the radio turned OFF, fly around in free airspace (what's left of it!) where you're entitled to fly and have fun.....The best flying I EVER did was 500hrs in a non-radio Cub around East Anglia, landing anywhere and everywhere.
On the subject of Duxford FIS. Bear in mind that normally they only have 1 FISO on duty during the week, sometimes 2 at a weekend and having to talk to several Ppruners on the RT normally means that you won't get a prompt reply by phone.
Shaggy,
Unfortunately, the nearest I got to Duxford on Saturday was driving past on the M11, but it may be that the 'home based' aircraft actually needed to get airborne before you. Maybe an overheating Spitfire desperate to feel the airflow, or aircraft getting airborne for a timed rendezvous etc etc.
Chill.....................
On the subject of Duxford FIS. Bear in mind that normally they only have 1 FISO on duty during the week, sometimes 2 at a weekend and having to talk to several Ppruners on the RT normally means that you won't get a prompt reply by phone.
Shaggy,
Unfortunately, the nearest I got to Duxford on Saturday was driving past on the M11, but it may be that the 'home based' aircraft actually needed to get airborne before you. Maybe an overheating Spitfire desperate to feel the airflow, or aircraft getting airborne for a timed rendezvous etc etc.
Chill.....................
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Hello SSD what were the A/C that you were being bumped for. If they were War birds then I could understand as some of these types tend to overheat very rapidly on the ground. So if that was he case then I'd understand (Be green with envy but I've done it before elswhere) If they were GA types Then I can understand your being miffed.
The guy in the tower was realy earning his crust when we arrived. My mate couldn't get his call for finals in edgeways as everbody and his dog was on channel as we arrived and we had to wait quite a while to book in as the poor bloke was inundated with arrivals, requests for fuel and answering the phone. he was busier than a one armed paper hangar!
As for standard procedure we were listening to Brize on the way home and heard the nice lady on the radio respond to one request with Okie Dokie!
The guy in the tower was realy earning his crust when we arrived. My mate couldn't get his call for finals in edgeways as everbody and his dog was on channel as we arrived and we had to wait quite a while to book in as the poor bloke was inundated with arrivals, requests for fuel and answering the phone. he was busier than a one armed paper hangar!
As for standard procedure we were listening to Brize on the way home and heard the nice lady on the radio respond to one request with Okie Dokie!
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The aircraft we were bumped for was a Rapide. The one were probably would have been further bumped for was a Tiger Moth. Both have the same technology engine as our chippy, albeit in the Rapide they are 6 cylinder Gipsy Queens rather than the 4 cylinder Gipsy Majors in the Chippy and the Tiger.
If it had been a heating-up Spit or Mustang I would not have any problem at all about them going first. But even if that had been the case, a quick explanation ("I'm making the Spitfire no. 1 since he'll have to shut down due overtemp if he doesn't go now) would be good manners.
The reason given was, as I said, 'locals take priority over visitors'.
SSD
If it had been a heating-up Spit or Mustang I would not have any problem at all about them going first. But even if that had been the case, a quick explanation ("I'm making the Spitfire no. 1 since he'll have to shut down due overtemp if he doesn't go now) would be good manners.
The reason given was, as I said, 'locals take priority over visitors'.
SSD
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 8th Apr 2003 at 17:17.
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If it's a privately owned airfield surely they can do as they wish. Of course, it might be impolite, bad manners or bad for business, (and to me it sounds all three) but it's up to them. Your recourse is to "vote with your feet" and not use that airfield any longer. In my mind it's a bit like people moaning about the guy on the end of the radio at Elstree. Yes he is rude and if I had lots of choice I might choose to fly somewhere else because of it, but it's the most convenient airfield for me so I use it.
You could write and complain and if they run it as a decent business they might then give you some serious consideration, but otherwise, well, tough. Or buy your own airfield and run it the way you'd like!
You could write and complain and if they run it as a decent business they might then give you some serious consideration, but otherwise, well, tough. Or buy your own airfield and run it the way you'd like!
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I think one or two posters are going a bit off-track here. I didn't start this thread as a rant against Duxford, who are quite entitled to do what they want within the law (I didn't identify the airfield in my original post, either). The thread was inspired by PPPPP's Manch LLR post as an illustration of how some newer-trained PPLs will happily take sh*t from a FISO simply because they hold the radio in awe, when they should really be a bit more assertive. Or turn off the radio ;~))
SSD
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There must be a wally at Duxford, went there for Autumn's Flying leg Ends and on arrival was handed an info sheet for visiting pilots with various info for departure including the instruction:
Do not call for taxi instructions, proceed along the grass taxi way to the active hold and call tower only when ready to depart.
I duly did so only to be shouted at by said wally
" G-**** we usually call for taxi clearance here"
No you dont wally!
Shame when one pratt spoils all the hard work of so many who do a superb job
Do not call for taxi instructions, proceed along the grass taxi way to the active hold and call tower only when ready to depart.
I duly did so only to be shouted at by said wally
" G-**** we usually call for taxi clearance here"
No you dont wally!
Shame when one pratt spoils all the hard work of so many who do a superb job
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SSD, not sure if you were referencing my post with your own, but I'm guessing perhaps you were as it followed it directly. My point was that I don't think that you were given (and thus taking) anything bad from a FISO, they were just telling you what they wanted you to do, which is within their rights. I don't think being more assertive is really the answer; to me being assertive in this way just sounds like posturing, along the lines of "I've got loads of hours, I know best". I doubt you're actually like that, but that is how it sounds to me. Like you said, you can switch off the radio and limit yourself to airfields that are happy to accept non-radio traffic or, again, buy your own airfield and do what you like!
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drauk said:
My point was that I don't think that you were given (and thus taking) anything bad from a FISO,
A couple of professional ATC guys who overheard the exchange disagree with you there, drauk.
As far as I am concerned this thread has now served its purpose. The point has been made, and some sensible guys (including some professional air traffickers) have replied with worthwhile observations.
SSD
My point was that I don't think that you were given (and thus taking) anything bad from a FISO,
A couple of professional ATC guys who overheard the exchange disagree with you there, drauk.
As far as I am concerned this thread has now served its purpose. The point has been made, and some sensible guys (including some professional air traffickers) have replied with worthwhile observations.
SSD
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SSD,
Just a question re you being sat at the hold waiting for departure - have you fed back to the FIS Unit, perhaps by visiting the tower so that the FISOs can understand your view point and vice-versa?
Also what do you class as professional and non-professional air traffikers ?? All FISOs have to do several written examinations, on the job training followed by a CAA SRG validation, and then a relavidation every 24 months. Most units have further training and competence checks. Additionally FISOs proffesional status is recoginsed by an external body as they can become members of the Guild of Air Traffic Controllers.
(Edited for speling)
Just a question re you being sat at the hold waiting for departure - have you fed back to the FIS Unit, perhaps by visiting the tower so that the FISOs can understand your view point and vice-versa?
Also what do you class as professional and non-professional air traffikers ?? All FISOs have to do several written examinations, on the job training followed by a CAA SRG validation, and then a relavidation every 24 months. Most units have further training and competence checks. Additionally FISOs proffesional status is recoginsed by an external body as they can become members of the Guild of Air Traffic Controllers.
(Edited for speling)
Last edited by Squadgy; 8th Apr 2003 at 23:52.
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The particular incident at Duxford has been interesting to watch from far away. Unfortunately, I couldn't make it to the event itself.
It seems to me, that since Duxford is a privately licensed airfield, its FISOs can prioritise their own traffic as much as they like. They are not subject to the rules of equal access that a public licence holder would need to adhere to. It is a commercial and operational decision whether they wish to upset any visitors by making them wait.
Personally, I don't see many aircraft like the Dragonfly in my home fields, I would not mind to wait for a few minutes to watch it pass.
To Squadgy, I would say that whislt FISOs are pro-f-e-ss-ionals in their own right, we also have to recognise that their level of proficiency is not the same as an ATCO, and their licences and privileges reflect this fact.
I wonder what will happen to the FISO licence when JAR is applied to ATC. There is no such licence under JAR, I am told.
It seems to me, that since Duxford is a privately licensed airfield, its FISOs can prioritise their own traffic as much as they like. They are not subject to the rules of equal access that a public licence holder would need to adhere to. It is a commercial and operational decision whether they wish to upset any visitors by making them wait.
Personally, I don't see many aircraft like the Dragonfly in my home fields, I would not mind to wait for a few minutes to watch it pass.
To Squadgy, I would say that whislt FISOs are pro-f-e-ss-ionals in their own right, we also have to recognise that their level of proficiency is not the same as an ATCO, and their licences and privileges reflect this fact.
I wonder what will happen to the FISO licence when JAR is applied to ATC. There is no such licence under JAR, I am told.
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I would say that whislt FISOs are pro-f-e-ss-ionals in their own right, we also have to recognise that their level of proficiency is not the same as an ATCO, and their licences and privileges reflect this fact.
I would suggest that a FISOs level of proficiency is equivalant to an ATCO for the role in which they operate - it has to be. I wouldn't expect a FISO to be able to sit in the GMC's position at EGLL, and I wouldnt expect an ATCO to be able to work the FIS position at Duxford without the required training and licences, in the same way as which a pilot of a 747 should be as proficent as a pilot of a Beech Duchess.....
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the thread was inspired by PPPPP's Manch LLR post as an illustration of how some newer-trained PPLs will happily take sh*t from a FISO simply because they hold the radio in awe, when they should really be a bit more assertive. Or turn off the radio ;~))
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SSD, given that I'm obviously not sensible but do aspire to be, what did the professional ATC guys think was wrong with the instructions you were given? I'm not being funny, I genuinely want to know and learn from it. Did they just think it was unprofessional (as I do)?
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As a PPL I have found generally all ATC to be helpful.Indeed on my qualifying X county flight heading for Half Penny Green Birmingham advised I turn right 5 deg as I was slightly off track, which was very helpful to a flustered student. I also remember transiting Brize Zone the day before Fairford so was V busy. They could have told me to F' off and stay clear, but they didnt and gave me a radar advisory, so good fun was had dodging pairs of fighters etc...good experience.
Remember having a bollocking off an ATC unit at regional airport in the SW when doinfg a PPL solo hour building flight. Having cleared me to cross their zone VFR not less than 3000' , and informing me ( as if i didnt know listening to the RT) of a 737 on a half mile final with no other traffic, I responded and included "visual and I will need to deviate from track to remain legal" no response, & he didnt give me a clearance to descend slightly . I so I know exactly where the 737 is by which time I was well south of the upwind end of the runway, at 3500'. I then put in a slight left turn (right turn wasnt an option)to remain legal coz of cloud and the git balled me out for putting myself on a collision couse with an aircraft on final (probably over the boundary by then) and that i should never ever do anything like that again. I stood up for myself(rightly or wrongly) and reminded him I was routing VFR as implied by my initial call and subsequent response, had a full visual with the aircraft concerned (3500' apart vertically 2 miles apart horizontally!)and the descent was no option as he didnt clear me to do so ..........radio silence .......then out of the ether, a Scottish accent exclaimed " yeah yoo tell him "
Somebody must have been having a bad day....
Remember having a bollocking off an ATC unit at regional airport in the SW when doinfg a PPL solo hour building flight. Having cleared me to cross their zone VFR not less than 3000' , and informing me ( as if i didnt know listening to the RT) of a 737 on a half mile final with no other traffic, I responded and included "visual and I will need to deviate from track to remain legal" no response, & he didnt give me a clearance to descend slightly . I so I know exactly where the 737 is by which time I was well south of the upwind end of the runway, at 3500'. I then put in a slight left turn (right turn wasnt an option)to remain legal coz of cloud and the git balled me out for putting myself on a collision couse with an aircraft on final (probably over the boundary by then) and that i should never ever do anything like that again. I stood up for myself(rightly or wrongly) and reminded him I was routing VFR as implied by my initial call and subsequent response, had a full visual with the aircraft concerned (3500' apart vertically 2 miles apart horizontally!)and the descent was no option as he didnt clear me to do so ..........radio silence .......then out of the ether, a Scottish accent exclaimed " yeah yoo tell him "
Somebody must have been having a bad day....
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My own experiences with Duxford on Saturday were good , we had absolutely no difficulties with them at all , but I am well aware of the problems others experienced.
As a Professional ATCO it is very interesting to see how FISOs and AG operators work , and certainly I am grateful to work for a large organisation which ensures that staffing levels and equipment are maintained.
It came as a shock to me probably because I reside in the Ivory towers of ATC that an Airfield operator can determine who has priority with regards to aircraft movements.
Drummed into you from the first day of ATC training is that traffic must be handled in a safe ,orderly and expeditious fashion .
This to me means that you handle traffic to produce aside from being most obviously safe , the most expeditious sequence of traffic. To prioritise traffic because they are locally based at the deteriment of visitors seems well outside this remit.
I have often wondered why GA traffic avoids talking to ATC when we are there to provide a service inparticular a LARs service.Having listened into various Air/Ground frequencies enroute to Duxford and back I think I may have formed a theory.
The way in which some of the AG operators spoke to aircraft was awful and extremely unprofessional. Perhaps if as a GA pilot you have only trained under these circumstances you may believe that ATC will be even more demanding and not want to provide you with any form of service. This couldn't be further from the truth, you will i'm sure come across ATCOs who do behave in that manner but the majority are willing and able to provide you with as much assistance as you require within the limitations of your licence. If you are lost we can help , even if all you want is a regional pressure setting call us up .
Just because when you have failed to get a zone transit once through a piece of airspace does not mean you will never get one, it could simply have been that at that time it was unavailable.
As a Professional ATCO it is very interesting to see how FISOs and AG operators work , and certainly I am grateful to work for a large organisation which ensures that staffing levels and equipment are maintained.
It came as a shock to me probably because I reside in the Ivory towers of ATC that an Airfield operator can determine who has priority with regards to aircraft movements.
Drummed into you from the first day of ATC training is that traffic must be handled in a safe ,orderly and expeditious fashion .
This to me means that you handle traffic to produce aside from being most obviously safe , the most expeditious sequence of traffic. To prioritise traffic because they are locally based at the deteriment of visitors seems well outside this remit.
I have often wondered why GA traffic avoids talking to ATC when we are there to provide a service inparticular a LARs service.Having listened into various Air/Ground frequencies enroute to Duxford and back I think I may have formed a theory.
The way in which some of the AG operators spoke to aircraft was awful and extremely unprofessional. Perhaps if as a GA pilot you have only trained under these circumstances you may believe that ATC will be even more demanding and not want to provide you with any form of service. This couldn't be further from the truth, you will i'm sure come across ATCOs who do behave in that manner but the majority are willing and able to provide you with as much assistance as you require within the limitations of your licence. If you are lost we can help , even if all you want is a regional pressure setting call us up .
Just because when you have failed to get a zone transit once through a piece of airspace does not mean you will never get one, it could simply have been that at that time it was unavailable.