Grass runway ! not in a twin !
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Grass runway ! not in a twin !
It would seem that a growing number of people who own twins are refusing to let them take off or land on grass runways I have to ask if this is a realistic precaution or a new type of aviation snobbery.
At a local airfield I have seen twins landing on the hard surface with the crosswind at its limits rather than land into wind , it would seem that it is thought preferable to land faster and impose maxamum permited side loads on the landing gear rather than land about 15 or so KT slower and not impose any side load on the landing gear.
I could see the reluctance to land on very rough grass runways for reasons of prop clearance but I can see few other reasons for not using the grass in a twin.
At a local airfield I have seen twins landing on the hard surface with the crosswind at its limits rather than land into wind , it would seem that it is thought preferable to land faster and impose maxamum permited side loads on the landing gear rather than land about 15 or so KT slower and not impose any side load on the landing gear.
I could see the reluctance to land on very rough grass runways for reasons of prop clearance but I can see few other reasons for not using the grass in a twin.
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Snobbery or ignorance....choose your pick.
I have flown Pa34,31, Bn2,C310,401,402b/c from tarmac, gravel, dirt, sand, grass.....
a crosswind landing on tar is much more stress on the u/c, no matter how good your technique, than one on a softer surface like dirt or grass.
In my youth I made an atrocious crosswind (read sideways
) landing on tar in a Pa28...damn near took the tyres of the rims ... just kicked rudder half a second too late 
the same landing on gravel, or sand or grass would have been much less stress on the gear.
We do medevac ops with C402C & 401 (if needed) and c208 into all kinds of fields in africa....some tar, some gravel/dirt farmstrips, some that look like motox tracks! even do a fair amount of road landings.....there the a/c gets punished.....
but landing on good grass strips....what a breeze
I have flown Pa34,31, Bn2,C310,401,402b/c from tarmac, gravel, dirt, sand, grass.....
a crosswind landing on tar is much more stress on the u/c, no matter how good your technique, than one on a softer surface like dirt or grass.
In my youth I made an atrocious crosswind (read sideways
) landing on tar in a Pa28...damn near took the tyres of the rims ... just kicked rudder half a second too late the same landing on gravel, or sand or grass would have been much less stress on the gear.
We do medevac ops with C402C & 401 (if needed) and c208 into all kinds of fields in africa....some tar, some gravel/dirt farmstrips, some that look like motox tracks! even do a fair amount of road landings.....there the a/c gets punished.....
but landing on good grass strips....what a breeze
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Agree with you, and there are some superb strips you can take a twin into as well. Here is one that a friend in ATC took of Flying Dutch and me, departing from Old Warden last year.
(His site is well worth a visit too)
(His site is well worth a visit too)
Last edited by 2Donkeys; 20th Mar 2003 at 13:14.
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Skaz
Snobbery or ignorance....choose your pick
Pretty 'ken stupid comment me thinks
There are a myriad reasons why people don't want to take their aircraft onto grass if it can be avoided - none-the-least of which may be group/syndicate or club rules.
To suggest its "Snobbery or ignorance" shows ignorance beyond the call of duty...
Edit: 2D - that's not your usual mount... How many grass strips does that see?
Snobbery or ignorance....choose your pick
Pretty 'ken stupid comment me thinks
There are a myriad reasons why people don't want to take their aircraft onto grass if it can be avoided - none-the-least of which may be group/syndicate or club rules.
To suggest its "Snobbery or ignorance" shows ignorance beyond the call of duty...
Edit: 2D - that's not your usual mount... How many grass strips does that see?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Personally, I prefer not to take my (single-engined) aircraft onto grass if possible, especially when it's muddy. That's because I'm a lazy sod, and I prefer not to have to clean it afterwards though!
(Bit difficult, since it's based at a grass airfield... )
(Bit difficult, since it's based at a grass airfield...
)
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I've seen a Citation come in and go out of the grass strip at EGKR... just after it had been mowed and there was lose grass all over it.
It looked like it had been turfed itself after the very neat landing and the two-man crew seemed perfectly happy (not that they were the owners!)
I don't fly twins but I reckon my arrivals with planet earth are much smoother on grass than on tarmac. More forgiving, I reckon.
Hersh
It looked like it had been turfed itself after the very neat landing and the two-man crew seemed perfectly happy (not that they were the owners!)
I don't fly twins but I reckon my arrivals with planet earth are much smoother on grass than on tarmac. More forgiving, I reckon.
Hersh
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"All depends" is the answer. I take the honourable G-UTSY into most places (grass included) - but NOT muddy grass. Having once had the "two greens" experience, caused by a large divot stuck on the microswitch, I never want that excitement again.
Agree that grass is more forgiving than tarmac, but it takes a tad longer to stop sometimes, too.
Agree that grass is more forgiving than tarmac, but it takes a tad longer to stop sometimes, too.
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Rustle wrote:
You need to get out more
That was my usual mount for many years, until very recently in fact.
As you probably suspect my current usual mount is rather too heavy for sodden grass during the winter months, and the take-off roll is long enough before factoring for grass. That alone rules out many of the more obvious strips.
This said, mud in the wheelwells, clogged microswitches, poor braking action, multi-engine ban at some grass strips (Barton) and a myriad reasons also come into play somewhere.
If you can satisfy yourself on those counts, then give it a go. It certainly won't hurt!
Edit: 2D - that's not your usual mount... How many grass strips does that see?
That was my usual mount for many years, until very recently in fact.As you probably suspect my current usual mount is rather too heavy for sodden grass during the winter months, and the take-off roll is long enough before factoring for grass. That alone rules out many of the more obvious strips.
This said, mud in the wheelwells, clogged microswitches, poor braking action, multi-engine ban at some grass strips (Barton) and a myriad reasons also come into play somewhere.
If you can satisfy yourself on those counts, then give it a go. It certainly won't hurt!
Mind you, do you remember prior to last year's Popham fly-in the number of people seriously worried about landing Cessna and Piper single's on grass. I think it's just fear of the unknown from people used to tarmac and nothing else.
G
G
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It depends on
1. If it is your own airplane, or hired or the bosses.
2. The actual state of the grass runway. I have come across some beautiful bowling green runways which are a pleasure.
3 Whether you like the clattering and banging usually associated with grass runways.
4. Not always, but usually grass runways are on fields too short for many twins, and if long enough are still not too good in wet weather.
1. If it is your own airplane, or hired or the bosses.
2. The actual state of the grass runway. I have come across some beautiful bowling green runways which are a pleasure.
3 Whether you like the clattering and banging usually associated with grass runways.
4. Not always, but usually grass runways are on fields too short for many twins, and if long enough are still not too good in wet weather.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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A couple of years ago I got caught out by the weather and diverted to Cranfield in a Super Cub. Had to leave the aircraft there for a few nights, didn't have any chocks or tie-downs with me (my mistake), and no one at Cranfield had any chocks (in fact, no one could believe that anyone would fly an aircraft without a parking brake). The only tie-downs were on the grass parking area, which was closed for the winter.
Spoke to the airfield director, who gave me permission to park and tie down on the grass, but he was very very worried about the state of the grass - he insisted that I walk the route first to check I was happy with it. Was I happy with it? Well, the parking area was in far better condition than the runway I'd taken off from a few hours earlier!
Genghis, I think you're right - it's just an illogical fear of the unknown in many cases.
FFF
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Spoke to the airfield director, who gave me permission to park and tie down on the grass, but he was very very worried about the state of the grass - he insisted that I walk the route first to check I was happy with it. Was I happy with it? Well, the parking area was in far better condition than the runway I'd taken off from a few hours earlier!
Genghis, I think you're right - it's just an illogical fear of the unknown in many cases.
FFF
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I can't help but think the "ignorance and snobbery" comment was 180degrees misplaced...
I think it's just fear of the unknown from people used to tarmac and nothing else.
What scientific/statistical/empirical evidence leads one to this conclusion?
In our syndicate all of us have flown singles to/from grass strips (some airfields in better condition than others) but have chosen not to take our twin into grass aerodromes.
To keep this in perspective, I'd take someone else's twin into a grass airfield quite happily (if their club rules allowed such things), but not my own.
Exactly the same rationale as being more than happy to do EFATO practice in a hired aircraft, but not in mine, thanks.
I think it's just fear of the unknown from people used to tarmac and nothing else.
What scientific/statistical/empirical evidence leads one to this conclusion?
In our syndicate all of us have flown singles to/from grass strips (some airfields in better condition than others) but have chosen not to take our twin into grass aerodromes.
To keep this in perspective, I'd take someone else's twin into a grass airfield quite happily (if their club rules allowed such things), but not my own.
Exactly the same rationale as being more than happy to do EFATO practice in a hired aircraft, but not in mine, thanks.
I landed shortly after the DC3 for my first time on that particular runway (03) over the trees, with a gusty wind. Although I didn't do too badly my admiration for Andy Dixon's piloting skills in the DC were greatly increased.
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There is one very good reason for thinking long and hard about grass departures and arrivals. A number of types, such as the Seneca, have very limited prop clearance, and bouncing along on the turf can have serious consequences to ones health, as a good friend of mine found out, to his grave cost, in the Newmarket crash in June 2000. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/feb01/gbmnt.htm. Although not the complete reason for the accident (as usual it was a combination of unfortunate events) the low clearance of the props was a factor.
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snobbery re the topic starter's post,some folks like you perhaps ruslte would rather be seen dead than driving the Rolls to the cafe, or landing on a grass strip, of all things...tuttut...
ignorance re the posts of Genghis the Engineer and FlyingForFun: obviously some people dont know that flying into a nice smooth, mowed, hard grass strip is absolutely fine for your precious a/c, experience and general knowledge plays a role here
landing on one in the rain, or shortly after, can be very messy and dangerous too, since with all the mud you can slip and slide all over, even into the ditch, where rustle lives
Landing on a sand runway is ok, just use your common sense and lift the nosewheel asap and let the a/c fly off....dirt and gravel ok too, before you jumo in, wet the ground in front of the props to keep the little vortices down, also remove little stones etc that might nick the prop......
the topic starter did not specify the ownership of the a/c , maybe one should be a little more carefull citing 'ken stupidity in replying to post on this website , duffle , waffle or ruffle whatever your name is
ignorance re the posts of Genghis the Engineer and FlyingForFun: obviously some people dont know that flying into a nice smooth, mowed, hard grass strip is absolutely fine for your precious a/c, experience and general knowledge plays a role here
landing on one in the rain, or shortly after, can be very messy and dangerous too, since with all the mud you can slip and slide all over, even into the ditch, where rustle lives
Landing on a sand runway is ok, just use your common sense and lift the nosewheel asap and let the a/c fly off....dirt and gravel ok too, before you jumo in, wet the ground in front of the props to keep the little vortices down, also remove little stones etc that might nick the prop......
the topic starter did not specify the ownership of the a/c , maybe one should be a little more carefull citing 'ken stupidity in replying to post on this website , duffle , waffle or ruffle whatever your name is
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Spaz
"...the topic starter did not specify the ownership of the a/c..."
A and C, topic starter, my bolding for your convenience:
"It would seem that a growing number of people who own twins are refusing to let them take off or land on grass runways..."
I rest my case.
"...the topic starter did not specify the ownership of the a/c..."
A and C, topic starter, my bolding for your convenience:
"It would seem that a growing number of people who own twins are refusing to let them take off or land on grass runways..."
I rest my case.