Grass runway ! not in a twin !
Just expanding the fear of the unknown point slightly, I've known more than one microlight pilot worried about landing on tarmac.
Come to think of it, given my Raven has no ground brakes, I'm one of them on occasion. Landing (or taxiing) downhill on tarmac can be thoroughly exciting in a way that grass isn't.
At the end of the day, we're all comfortable with what we're used to.
Incidentally I once did a precautionary landing into a long, slightly uphill, whitish field next to a chalk quarry. From the air I thought the white colouring would be chalk through very thin grass. I now know that landing on semi-refined sewage is very slippery, and it takes a very long time to clean the aircraft afterwards.
G
Come to think of it, given my Raven has no ground brakes, I'm one of them on occasion. Landing (or taxiing) downhill on tarmac can be thoroughly exciting in a way that grass isn't.
At the end of the day, we're all comfortable with what we're used to.
Incidentally I once did a precautionary landing into a long, slightly uphill, whitish field next to a chalk quarry. From the air I thought the white colouring would be chalk through very thin grass. I now know that landing on semi-refined sewage is very slippery, and it takes a very long time to clean the aircraft afterwards.
G
Not so N, but still FG
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Hello Skaz, haven't seen you in here much. If all of your posts are like that one, perhaps that is a good thing. Genghis and FFF both know a lot about operating on grass and other surfaces. Even if I didn't already know this, nothing in their contributions to this thread suggest otherwise.
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holy beejeezus you bunch are touchy.....
Spaz...that was a good one, touche
FNG you misunderstood my post. I did not mean those two are ignorant or somesuch....perhaps I should rephrase.They mentioned the fear of the unknown, that is what I'm referring to with ignorance, now knowing or not wanting to know.
rustle...okay, so I missed that bit, chill out
Spaz...that was a good one, touche
FNG you misunderstood my post. I did not mean those two are ignorant or somesuch....perhaps I should rephrase.They mentioned the fear of the unknown, that is what I'm referring to with ignorance, now knowing or not wanting to know.
rustle...okay, so I missed that bit, chill out
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Skaz
"...okay, so I missed that bit, chill out"
I'm chilled - always good when people admit their mistakes, we're all friends in here...
mrcross
"...but then he's a proper twin with plenty of prop clearance"
Oi! Its a long walk home from Duxford don't forget 
"...okay, so I missed that bit, chill out"
I'm chilled - always good when people admit their mistakes, we're all friends in here...
mrcross
"...but then he's a proper twin with plenty of prop clearance"
Oi! Its a long walk home from Duxford don't forget
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Indeed it may be ignorance from some aircraft hire operations who don't understand grass runways. Might also be experience of pilots hiring then going into grass and not taking sufficient care of the aircraft.
Grass can pose greater difficulty with low prop clearance singles and twins. Actually it is not the grass but the smoothness or otherwise of the surface and many grass strips can be quite bumpy compared to tarmac.
All the same I have flown both Seneca and Cessna310 in and out of grass strips and as they were aircraft I had some equity in did so with care and lack of problem.
A friend of mine landed at a Midlands airfield on a hard surface in a Mooney but then had to taxi on grass and suffered prop strike and an engine rebuild.
Owners have every right to apply whatever conditions they wish when hiring out but those pilots with sufficient experience should try to persuade them of their error if they are being too strict.
Grass can pose greater difficulty with low prop clearance singles and twins. Actually it is not the grass but the smoothness or otherwise of the surface and many grass strips can be quite bumpy compared to tarmac.
All the same I have flown both Seneca and Cessna310 in and out of grass strips and as they were aircraft I had some equity in did so with care and lack of problem.
A friend of mine landed at a Midlands airfield on a hard surface in a Mooney but then had to taxi on grass and suffered prop strike and an engine rebuild.
Owners have every right to apply whatever conditions they wish when hiring out but those pilots with sufficient experience should try to persuade them of their error if they are being too strict.
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My, My, My:
If I had the choice of a good smooth well cared for grass strip or any paved strip I would land and take off from the grass strip.
With any airplane from the J3 Cub to a B747. ( providing the strip would support the weight of the 747. )
Cat Driver:
If I had the choice of a good smooth well cared for grass strip or any paved strip I would land and take off from the grass strip.
With any airplane from the J3 Cub to a B747. ( providing the strip would support the weight of the 747. )
Cat Driver:
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You can't beat grass. Ooh the fun we have washing the mud off the tailplane, wing undersides, wheel wells, spats, etc etc
Nothing to do with snobbery. Everything to do with being lazy and wanting to go straight home to Mrs van Rental once I have landed and picked the flies out of my teeth.
True pilots don't need to land into wind all the time, and enjoy the challenge of touching down on a nice bit of tarmac with the wheels correctly aligned.
Nothing to do with snobbery. Everything to do with being lazy and wanting to go straight home to Mrs van Rental once I have landed and picked the flies out of my teeth.
True pilots don't need to land into wind all the time, and enjoy the challenge of touching down on a nice bit of tarmac with the wheels correctly aligned.
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Hi Rustle,
I read:
I can appreciate that you dont want to unduly fly assymmetric with your own mount, but shirley it would not be a good idea to some EFATO training in the very machine that you are most likely to suffer one.
FD
PS: I will remember never to let you borrow any of my toys!
I read:
To keep this in perspective, I'd take someone else's twin into a grass airfield quite happily (if their club rules allowed such things), but not my own.
FD
PS: I will remember never to let you borrow any of my toys!
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FD
I think you quoted the wrong bit
Me being the only contributor to this thread who isn't inclined to take his own twin into grass airfields, I'd hate to be the only one with turbocharged engines who doesn't want to practice EFATO in it as well - so I'll say nowt and see if anyone else comments...
I think you quoted the wrong bit
Me being the only contributor to this thread who isn't inclined to take his own twin into grass airfields, I'd hate to be the only one with turbocharged engines who doesn't want to practice EFATO in it as well - so I'll say nowt and see if anyone else comments...
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With you all the way rustle
Don't be put off by the macho men
Shutting down turbo-charged piston engines in flight is strictly for other people's aircraft. I always borrow one when its time for my renewal.
If you have long and delicate propellers, its your prorogative to stick to tarmac runways.
Each to their own.
Don't be put off by the macho men
Shutting down turbo-charged piston engines in flight is strictly for other people's aircraft. I always borrow one when its time for my renewal.
If you have long and delicate propellers, its your prorogative to stick to tarmac runways.
Each to their own.
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grass strips with twins
The bottom line is the condition of the surface. Grass, gravel, dirt, are all no problem if the surface are in good, dry shape. I'll try to get some pictures up of Navajos on grass and ice runways.
Adam
Link removed. Check your PMs please Adam.
Adam
Link removed. Check your PMs please Adam.
Last edited by BRL; 21st Mar 2003 at 17:54.
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rustle a question
If your destination airfield has two runways one grass and one hard and provided that the grass is in good condition , if the wind is gusting up to the limits across the hard runway and more or less along the grass what do you do ?.
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Obviously a hypothetical scenario unless all my planning skills have deserted me or I have an airborne problem...
But if I had to land, I would land on the grass in that situation no question - same as I'd bust CAS if I had a problem.
But I wouldn't plan on landing on grass in it, any more than planning to bust CAS.
Different rules, different regulators (one statutory, one syndicate), same logic
But if I had to land, I would land on the grass in that situation no question - same as I'd bust CAS if I had a problem.
But I wouldn't plan on landing on grass in it, any more than planning to bust CAS.
Different rules, different regulators (one statutory, one syndicate), same logic
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performance??
landing is not a problem....taking off might be.
-acceleration is bad. A normal takeoff technique must be used because soft field technique in a twin puts the plane in the air before Vmca.
more time of nosewheel on the ground because of that.
more stress on the mainwheels because they hold the weight of engines while encountering bumps, jolts, all that.
partial power on brakes is discouraged (debris can hit the prop)
and besides...twins are normally heavier than singles...they use more runway, they sink deeper into the grass, etc etc etc.
itīs not impossible..itīs just not the best situation for a piston twin, even tho most are perfectly capable of doing it.
Just an opinion.
SW
www.patagonianskies.com.ar
-acceleration is bad. A normal takeoff technique must be used because soft field technique in a twin puts the plane in the air before Vmca.
more time of nosewheel on the ground because of that.
more stress on the mainwheels because they hold the weight of engines while encountering bumps, jolts, all that.
partial power on brakes is discouraged (debris can hit the prop)
and besides...twins are normally heavier than singles...they use more runway, they sink deeper into the grass, etc etc etc.
itīs not impossible..itīs just not the best situation for a piston twin, even tho most are perfectly capable of doing it.
Just an opinion.
SW
www.patagonianskies.com.ar
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Isnt the issue not twin-v-grass but rather retratable-v-grass?
As most twins are retracts the appearance is that twins avoid grass, I am unwilling to risk my retractable single on soggy muddy bumpy grass.As much for the wear and tear on the u/c as anything, I shudder to think of the cost of an overhaul on the gear.So for me its summer time only and then only after I,ve checked by phone on the state of play, something i would never have done with fixed gear.
I dont think my caution is either ignorant or snobbish.
As most twins are retracts the appearance is that twins avoid grass, I am unwilling to risk my retractable single on soggy muddy bumpy grass.As much for the wear and tear on the u/c as anything, I shudder to think of the cost of an overhaul on the gear.So for me its summer time only and then only after I,ve checked by phone on the state of play, something i would never have done with fixed gear.
I dont think my caution is either ignorant or snobbish.
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The pleasures of grass
My mate flew a 172 into Fenland recently...they told
him that the field wasn't too bad - just a little damp.
He landed in a huge water splash and once he slowed
down promptly bogged in and had to be pulled out by
land-rover.
When he got the crate back home, the chief engineer
refused to service it because 'he'd never seen a plane
so dirty' and the plane had to be cleaned off with
a jetwash.
-- Andrew
him that the field wasn't too bad - just a little damp.
He landed in a huge water splash and once he slowed
down promptly bogged in and had to be pulled out by
land-rover.
When he got the crate back home, the chief engineer
refused to service it because 'he'd never seen a plane
so dirty' and the plane had to be cleaned off with
a jetwash.
-- Andrew