Getting to Grips with the IMC

[Aussie Andy]

Hey BEagle, thanks for the words of encouragement... and nice to know there's someone who doesn't charge a fee

The scenario you describe is definitely one which comes to mind when I think of why I want an IMC rating; I think it would reduce the stress and indigestion caused to a nice lunch as you describe if you spend te whole afternoon just worrying (as I have at LFAT!) that the wx may deteriorate making the retunr trip difficult...

Also, days like today - and the last couple of days - which I have spent on the ground (at Bath with family on a short break): hazy beneath a relatively low cloud-base, but I coulod see thgrough the breaks to the blue above and spent a lot of time gazing skywards and wondering what it will be like to cruise in nice clear blue skies ABOVE the cloud layer, en-route to an instrument let down at my favourite destination(s)..!

Until that day......

Andy

[IO540-C4D5D]

As others have mentioned, it tends to "click" after some hours so don't worry too much.

However:-

Different instructors work differently. I flew with 3 or 4 different ones, basically due to varying availability, and similarly in different planes. I spent some 10 hours with one instructor who demanded NDB holds to perfection (within 5 degrees on both legs) which I now know is stupid, especially as this being nearly the first thing we did. Some put you under a lot more pressure than others. Some have no idea what you actually need to be able to do right. Try to find an instructor who flies IFR for real, they approach things much more practically and you will learn more actually useful stuff. The IMCR syllabus is very vague and IMHO the absolute minimum isn't enough for real flight when you look at the really great privileges you get.

Flying a knackered plane in which the DI drifts 10 degrees every 10 minutes (not kidding) makes tracking any navaid FAR harder. The instructor won't tell you that, of course, he just works there. I've had instructors tell me that badly drifting instruments improve your scan ...a total load of tosh... So be choosy about what you train in - it will save you money. Pay extra per hour for a better plane if you can, or go to a different school which has a better plane. It makes a BIG difference. When you fly in real IMC on your own, you sure as hell won't want to do it in something clapped out, so why learn that way?

Try (and this is going to be controversial) to find an instructor who will train in actual IMC so you don't have to wear foggles. Obviously doing it under a Radar Information Service is a good idea. It is a lot easier to fly in actual IMC than to fly under foggles or especially that ghastly "tunnel vision" black plastic IFR hood, especially if you have to do other things like reading an approach plate. Of course you will never fly with a hood yourself for real!

Unlike with JAR ratings, the same person can also do your IMCR skills test.

Also you can start above the clouds; it is easier on you but is good practice for navaids because you won't have a clue where you are.

Flying in IMC on your own later (when you've passed the skills test), or perhaps with a friend who is IMC/IR, is a lot easier than with an instructor because the pressure isn't there, and you've got enough work on as it is. Flying is a constant learning process and you will learn while enjoying it.

Finally, you can fly VFR in any old piece of junk with crap or missing avionics, and many do. Doing the same in IMC might be legal (outside controlled airspace etc) but is awfully hard work. So you will be looking at getting into something better, and this will very much affect what you rent, buy into, or buy outright. If you want to fly a lot of IMC then an autopilot, even a simple one, is pretty well essential otherwise you will be like a zombie when you arrive. Same goes for currency; unlike VFR you can't just drop it for 6 months and then go up into the clouds.

[Aussie Andy]

Thanks IO540-C4D5D, interesting comments. I like the idea of flying in real IMC but so far am discovering that, just as good VMC was sometimes hard to come by doing the PPL, "good" IMC can sometimes be hard to come by when you want it too ! I've been thinking about my instructor and aircraft choices in light of what you've said:

Certainly my instructor is a real IMC kinda-guy, willing to teach in real IMC and he flies commercial jet airliners for a living so meets your other criteria of regularly flying IFR for real.

The aircraft I am training in is a C152, not what I'm used to but seems very stable and easy to fly, and the DI seems pretty good (doesn't precess too quicly) on first acquaintance. What it lacks is DME, so I guess I can't learn DME arc-ing and ILS/DME approaches, but it does have a Marker beacon receiver so can still do ILS, and it has a single VOR.

I first thought that single VOR and no DME would be a handicap as I'll obviously need to see two intersecting radials from two different beacons in order to figure out where I am, hence much twiddling of frequency and OBS knobs whilst aviating, communicating, rubbing my stomach and patting my head! But as the VOR receiver fitted to the aircraft is a KX-155A life in this regard is a lot easier than it might have otherwise been.

This device gives a sort of "instant digital read out" of bearing to/from the beacon, without having to twiddle the OBS, so you can quickly with one button flip/flop between two VOR's and see displayed eg: "270 from" and "090 to" and then figure out where you are, so hopefully this will help - time will tell

Andy

[Tinstaafl]

Andy, are you checking the morse ident each time you change freq.? That's what I taught/do.

I also taught VOR 1st then ADF. VOR is a bit easier & has useful cross-transference of skills that can be applied to the more difficult ADF.

What are the track/altitude tolerances for the IMC? I have no idea because I went from a foreign licence direct to a UK one ie with an IR not IMC.

In Oz the test tolerance for an IR is +/- 5 deg or half scale.

Whilst I wouldn't expect a student to get that initially they certainly had to by the end of their course.

[Aussie Andy]

Yep, we have to ident the beacons!

Don't know what the test tolerances are: will let you know when I do...

Andy

[Fly Stimulator]

Since my own poor vandalised aircraft is grounded for the indefinite future I took the chance to start my IMC training at the weekend.

I'm also doing it in a 152 (though may use a PA-28 too later). After some general handling on instruments and a bit of VOR tracking we spent most of the time doing NDB tracking.

I can already see what I suspect my learning pattern is going to be:

1) Read the book

2) Fly the exercise and find that some of it works as I'd expected, other bits don't; some things I'd managed to forget in the day or so since reading about them, and some are entirely new to me.

3) Generally discover that I need to improve my mental juggling skills so that I can keep more balls in the air (and centred of course) at once.

4) Go home and read the same bit of the book again, finding that it makes more sense now

5) Practice the exercise on the PC flight simulator, where it mysteriously seems relatively easy. Why don't real aircraft have a 'Pause' button?

6) Return to (1)

Next lesson booked for Sunday afternoon, to be spent at Calais where there's apparently a nice cheap ILS.

Here's hoping for cloudy weather

[FlyingForFun]

Fly, that sounds very similar to my pattern! Except that the bits I have trouble with are the bits which aren't in the book - my instructor warned me that Trevor Thom isn't too good for the IMC, and she was right.

I had another two lessons this weekend. First lesson was a couple of ILSs at Farborough. The main thing to concentrate on wasn't the ILS itself (which I seem to be getting the hang of fairly quickly) but the radar vectoring - although I'm capable of following instructions from ATC, I had found it difficult to follow where I'm being taken when I'm being vectored.

Well, I think my instructor had been on the phone to the controller, because he (the controller) tried his best to confuse me for the first one! Told me that he'd be taking me to the west of the field due to gliding at Lasham, then proceeded to vector me to the east! Anyway, I was on the ball and figured out what was going on, which I was pretty pleased with. After the go-around, we were vectored in for another approach, and again I had a good idea of where we were the whole time. After that, it was time to head home, trying to maintain enough situational awareness to not fly through the Blackbushe ATZ, which I also managed. A successful flight!

The next lesson was all completely unprepared. Instructor told me to take off then head for Compton, and she'd give me further instructions after that. Well, I ruined her first plan by guessing where she was going to send me(!) so she had to re-plan, and we ended up back at Farnborough again! This time the radar vectors took me right over the top of some restricted areas, so situational awareness was very important. The air was getting pretty bumpy, and the ILS was, well, difficult - but I managed to keep it within limits, so I was happy, and my instructor seemed happy too. We decided to recap some other bits - partial panel, NDB tracking, unusual attitudes - which also went well, and then headed home.

Only a few more hours to go, and it really is starting to come together now. Won't be too long before I'm posting looking for safety pilots! Although I already have a few willing volunteers, so it may be a little while before I have to post...

Safe flying,

FFF
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[Fly Stimulator]

You mean that you have to know where you are as well as keeping the aircraft the right way up?

This is going to be trickier than I'd anticipated.

[Tim_Q]

IMC-IR

Interesting reading your thoughts on IMC. Just thinking about doing it this summer!
One question you chaps may know, FFF probably will -
can you tell me if at the moment an IMC holder is entitled to reduced hrs during IR training further down the line?
I've seen some confusion over this before.
Cheers,
Tim

[FlyingForFun]

Tim,

No, it doesn't - you still have to do the full number of hours. A CPL will get you a few hours off, but not an IMC rating.

However, it will (ironically) get you time off an FAA IR. The FAA IR consists of (I forget the exact number of hours, but) a minimum of X hour of instrument flying, of which Y must be with an FAA instructor on an approved course, but the rest (about 20 hours I think?) can be any instrument time at all. Including your IMC rating, your instrument work for your PPL, or post-IMC rating actual IMC time, or simulated IMC time with a friend as safety pilot. To convert your FAA IR to a JAR IR, you will need a minimum of 15 hours (as well as the IR or ATPL exam credits, of course).

So if you've got an IMC rating, and you're looking to upgrade to an IR, then getting an FAA IR first and converting is probably the way to go.

The source of confusion is that an IMC rating did get you time off a CAA IR, but not off a JAA IR.

FFF
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[KCDW]

Fantastic, succinct advice - thanks!!

May consider the FAA IR while I'm in the US after all....

Maybe I can find some N registered planes to fly back in the UK

[Tim_Q]

FFF,
I didn't expect such a rapid response, I was just about to post again as I have just found another thread where you have previously answered this!
Your answer was kind of what I was expecting
Makes little sense to me and now I have to ask myself, can I afford to do an IMC now if I'm intending to do an IR in a year or so?! Probably not which is a shame.
Tim

[IO540-C4D5D]

I think that a flying school which is completely honest with its students should offer two types of PPL:

1. Standard PPL (to show your mates you can fly)

2. A Useful PPL (to go places; the present PPL plus an IMC Rating)



Of course in reality this would not generate much business because of the general shortage of IFR capable aircraft available for rental (at any price) and the required currency for IMC flight.

[pmcadams]

I dont know if this will help, but I have about 15 hrs under my belt for my IMC rating, was actually ready to take the test, but unavailability of an examiner and lack of cash flow meant it has been put off.

But I learnt in real IMC, i think its the only way cause those foggles p*ss me of! But I asked my instructor to purposly make it difficult for me, as I want a comercial licence and IR, of which he duly applied.

I prefer NDB's for navaids than VORs as they are so easy to use, no I'm not using an RMI! If you just treat the navaids as a simple point and they all have radials, you will soon understand fairly quickly the theory, its just displayed differently, you then find that your holds an working out where you are becomes second nature quicker.

I am quite happy popping out at 500ft with 20 degrees of drift on a displaced inboud leg to landing, eventually it all just drops into place, i cant wait for my IR! But I have to get my IMC officially out of the way first!

[GJB]

The best advise I can offer is be rested and thoroughly prepared.

If you are on top of things, you should actually enjoy it!!

[GroundBound]

tinstaafl since no-one's replied on tolerances, I think (!!) its 5 degrees and 100ft. Don't know about ILS deviation though.

Having read this thread through again, it makes me envious - I would dearly love to get the IMC rating but can't make use of it outside the UK, and would also find it difficult to maintain. The IR is quite out of the question .

I did a couple of hours IMC last year in Northern Ireland, but the weather was too bad for instrument training - jeez - only in Ireland!

I'm off again in a months time, and hope to get a few more hours IMC under my belt - weather permitting. Bit by bit - and maybe I'll get there.

[phnuff]

Last year, I revalidated my IMC for the xth time and can assure anyone worrying about how knackered they feel learning, that I still feel knackered when I go up for checks with an instructir prior to each test.

I was told by my original IMC instructor (a Mr C Ladbrooke - if anyone knows of his whereabouts, let me know by pm, I still hear his voice every time I fly an approach), that if when on instruments, if you go more than 10 seconds without checking someing, you are doing an inadequate job.

Its worth it though !!

[Barney_Gumble]

Which Flight Sim s/w

Hi Folks,

I have just read through this post from start to finish this morning and have been looking at IMC training. I am only in the investigation phase and have spoken to an instructor about starting in September.

I was interested to hear the comments about using flight simulation s/w and so thought I might invest along with the Thom book. Having just looked at the usual sources of pilot gear I noticed there are a few different s/w packages:

- MS 2002 Flight Simulator
- Jeppesen FAA IFR Flight Sim For Serous Pilots
- OnTop IFR Flight Sim
- Instrument Procedure Training Course
- RANT

My question is which should I focus on and more importantly which of these are way off beam. It seems from the thread that MS Flight Simulator & RANT seem to be the favorites?

Any advice………

[DRJAD]

Well, I've not got a copy of MS Flight Simulator, but I have got RANT.

Just started IMC training, and at least two instructors have commented on how good RANT is to get the idea before adding the real stuff in flying. Both have also been good enough to mention that what I picked up in RANT is also obvious in my flying.

No hesitation in recommending RANT - excellent software.

[Evo]

There's a RANT demo, so you can try it. I'm using FS2002 - i always used to think that it was rubbish, but i'm finding it very useful for practicing holds, procedural approaches, the ILS etc.

Best bet if you're on a budget would be to pick up a copy of FS98 for a fiver. The flight model is the same, view out the window is worse but you're not looking at that