How to ensure your landings stay consistent
Why do it if it's not fun?
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How to ensure your landings stay consistent
After a couple of hundred hours, I'd like to think that I'm finally getting close to understanding how to land an aeroplane. Broadly:
1. Fly a good circuit
2. Adjust pitch and power as necessary to ensure you're heading for your aiming point, and keeping the correct airspeed
3. At an appropriate height, begin to flare
4. Switch your vision to a point a reasonable distance along the runway
5. Hold the aircraft off the runway for as long as possible
6. Once the attitude is approaching the landing attitude for your aircraft, use the rudder to remove any crab angle remaining
7. Touch down gently for another greaser, before getting onto the breaks and leaving the runway
Now, there are quite a few steps there. And this is by no means a complete list of everything you have to, either.
Here's the problem: If there was just one thing which we need to remember to do, then it would be simple task to consciously pay attention to that one thing. But, with so many things to remember, does anyone find it difficult to know which to concentrate on the most?
Here's an example: Recently, I went through a period where my landings were absolutely appaling. I spent a couple of hours flying circuits, and soon realised that I was regularly forgetting step 4, looking down the runway. Well, maybe not completely forgetting it - I was shifting my vision forward, but not far enough. Problem solved!
So, having found the problem, I would make a conscious effort to look well down the runway during the flare. And my next few landings were fantastic! Until a couple of weeks later.....
I was a bit concerned that my run of good landings didn't last very long. I was sure my vision was focussed on the correct area, so I didn't understand what the problem was. Then, on Saturday, I flew with another member of my group, who remarked that he seems to hold the aircraft off the runway for longer than me. I didn't think much of it at first... but the more I thought about his off-hand comment, the more convinced I was that, in my effort to remember step 4, I was forgetting step 5.
On Sunday, I flew again, and paid attention to step 5 - I consciously said to myself "don't let her land yet, don't let her land yet, don't let her land yet." And when I couldn't stay off the runway any more, we touched down for one of the best landings I've done for a long time.
I have, at other times, variously "forgotten" how to do steps 3, 4, 5, 6, sometimes 2, and on rare occassions, 1.
So - the question. What do the rest of you consciously think about when you land? Does anyone else find that if you concentrate on one particular thing, you tend to forget others? If so, have you found a solution? Do you ever get to a point where landing becomes natural? (I suspect that those who fly regularly are more likely to do this than the rest of us - I think my landings came fairly naturally when I was hour-building, and flying at least once a day.)
Or am I the only pilot to occassionally have to come back to these issues after my skills test?
FFF
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1. Fly a good circuit
2. Adjust pitch and power as necessary to ensure you're heading for your aiming point, and keeping the correct airspeed
3. At an appropriate height, begin to flare
4. Switch your vision to a point a reasonable distance along the runway
5. Hold the aircraft off the runway for as long as possible
6. Once the attitude is approaching the landing attitude for your aircraft, use the rudder to remove any crab angle remaining
7. Touch down gently for another greaser, before getting onto the breaks and leaving the runway
Now, there are quite a few steps there. And this is by no means a complete list of everything you have to, either.
Here's the problem: If there was just one thing which we need to remember to do, then it would be simple task to consciously pay attention to that one thing. But, with so many things to remember, does anyone find it difficult to know which to concentrate on the most?
Here's an example: Recently, I went through a period where my landings were absolutely appaling. I spent a couple of hours flying circuits, and soon realised that I was regularly forgetting step 4, looking down the runway. Well, maybe not completely forgetting it - I was shifting my vision forward, but not far enough. Problem solved!
So, having found the problem, I would make a conscious effort to look well down the runway during the flare. And my next few landings were fantastic! Until a couple of weeks later.....
I was a bit concerned that my run of good landings didn't last very long. I was sure my vision was focussed on the correct area, so I didn't understand what the problem was. Then, on Saturday, I flew with another member of my group, who remarked that he seems to hold the aircraft off the runway for longer than me. I didn't think much of it at first... but the more I thought about his off-hand comment, the more convinced I was that, in my effort to remember step 4, I was forgetting step 5.
On Sunday, I flew again, and paid attention to step 5 - I consciously said to myself "don't let her land yet, don't let her land yet, don't let her land yet." And when I couldn't stay off the runway any more, we touched down for one of the best landings I've done for a long time.
I have, at other times, variously "forgotten" how to do steps 3, 4, 5, 6, sometimes 2, and on rare occassions, 1.
So - the question. What do the rest of you consciously think about when you land? Does anyone else find that if you concentrate on one particular thing, you tend to forget others? If so, have you found a solution? Do you ever get to a point where landing becomes natural? (I suspect that those who fly regularly are more likely to do this than the rest of us - I think my landings came fairly naturally when I was hour-building, and flying at least once a day.)
Or am I the only pilot to occassionally have to come back to these issues after my skills test?
FFF
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Interesting you should bring this up now, as I was thinking about the very same thing in bed last night...
Somebody took me gliding a couple of weeks ago - just two winch launches and no thermal activity so it was almost straight into the circuit. But when I landed I (apparently) did both pretty well. Okay, so the first time you try a new aircraft the instructor will probably tell you that so you come back again... but I agreed on this occasion. The touch down itself was very gentle, and I didn't really bounce. Considering this was a completely different aircraft shape - @rse about 6" from the grass, and LONG wings - I was pretty impressed with myself. Oh, and I haven't flown P1 for about 5 months.
So I thought about what I knew I'd done right, and the main thing was holding off as long as possible, while focussing some distance ahead. This is something I've only really got the hang of since starting tailwheel flying. My landings in a nosewheel were pretty good, but not consistently so.
I don't think I do anything subconsciously. I'm always aware of keeping wings level, attitude correct etc. But I don't think I actually focus on how far the runway is beneath me. I'm aware, but there's no mental countdown of distance.
Erm... does that answer your question?
Somebody took me gliding a couple of weeks ago - just two winch launches and no thermal activity so it was almost straight into the circuit. But when I landed I (apparently) did both pretty well. Okay, so the first time you try a new aircraft the instructor will probably tell you that so you come back again... but I agreed on this occasion. The touch down itself was very gentle, and I didn't really bounce. Considering this was a completely different aircraft shape - @rse about 6" from the grass, and LONG wings - I was pretty impressed with myself. Oh, and I haven't flown P1 for about 5 months.
So I thought about what I knew I'd done right, and the main thing was holding off as long as possible, while focussing some distance ahead. This is something I've only really got the hang of since starting tailwheel flying. My landings in a nosewheel were pretty good, but not consistently so.
I don't think I do anything subconsciously. I'm always aware of keeping wings level, attitude correct etc. But I don't think I actually focus on how far the runway is beneath me. I'm aware, but there's no mental countdown of distance.
Erm... does that answer your question?
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I don't think I do anything subconsciously
Sometimes we b*gger it up because we're to conscious of what we're doing, rather than letting it all happen smoothly.
Anyway, all my landings are safe, but the quality does vary and I relate to FFFs statement about forgetting various steps along the way!
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Now you come to mention it, I believe I have the same problem, particularly with the looking ahead down the runway (or not). As far as I can remember I have always forgotten to do this during the flare, although after reading threads on here I always promise that I'll make more effort next time etc...
Anyway, being very self critical, I'd say my landings are at best 'OK'. Don't usually do any particularly bad ones, but can't remember my last greaser either. I suspect that the problem stems from the fact that I picked up the basic skills of landing very quickly so perhaps didn't spend as much time practicing as I probably should have done. As I've heard many people say, your first few solo landings are the best you'll do for a long time. Complacency and laziness probably come into play after that. As a new PPL I always make a concious effort to practice PFL's, stalls, steep turns etc. but to be honest have not done a concentrated session of touch-and-go's since before the navigation part of my training. That's probably the other reason I'm 'rusty'.
I read somewhere once that the human mind generally has trouble remembering more than four items at once, and landing is one of those occasions where you need to concentrate on probably five or six things constantly. As FFF says, no wonder things get 'missed'.
Anyway, I'm determined to get checked out on a taildragger in spring, and that will SURELY sort out my landings - one way or the other! I now realise that training on a docile a/c (Pa.28) really does have its downside.
Anyway, being very self critical, I'd say my landings are at best 'OK'. Don't usually do any particularly bad ones, but can't remember my last greaser either. I suspect that the problem stems from the fact that I picked up the basic skills of landing very quickly so perhaps didn't spend as much time practicing as I probably should have done. As I've heard many people say, your first few solo landings are the best you'll do for a long time. Complacency and laziness probably come into play after that. As a new PPL I always make a concious effort to practice PFL's, stalls, steep turns etc. but to be honest have not done a concentrated session of touch-and-go's since before the navigation part of my training. That's probably the other reason I'm 'rusty'.
I read somewhere once that the human mind generally has trouble remembering more than four items at once, and landing is one of those occasions where you need to concentrate on probably five or six things constantly. As FFF says, no wonder things get 'missed'.
Anyway, I'm determined to get checked out on a taildragger in spring, and that will SURELY sort out my landings - one way or the other! I now realise that training on a docile a/c (Pa.28) really does have its downside.
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Unfortunately for you lot you're all men. And we know you can't multitask as well as women. 
My suggestion: stop breathing before landing. That takes away one non-essential task...
F3G - I would be interested in reading that reference, do you have the details?
My suggestion: stop breathing before landing. That takes away one non-essential task...
F3G - I would be interested in reading that reference, do you have the details?
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Aerbabe
Looks as if I was getting my Wilsons confused with my Millers (or maybe I read Wilson's commentary on the law balh blah) It was a few years ago and I ain't getting any younger - in fact it feels like my dotage is only around the corner sometimes
Here's a url...
http://www.well.com/user/smalin/miller.html
Looks as if I was getting my Wilsons confused with my Millers (or maybe I read Wilson's commentary on the law balh blah) It was a few years ago and I ain't getting any younger - in fact it feels like my dotage is only around the corner sometimes
Here's a url...
http://www.well.com/user/smalin/miller.html
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FFF
I generally agree, except on many aircraft the view ahead is virtually nil in the flare. I'm trying my hardest to think what I do... I think I pick up visual clues from whatever view I have, try to sort out any drift, keep the wings level and just keep flying. Hopefully this whole messy business results in another daisey cutter.
Unfortunatly most of my flying is done at a bumpy strip with up to 20% upslope and camber so a few hops and skips are perfectly acceptable. (that's my story and I'm sticking to it!)
On arrival at a 'normal' airfield I either grease it on perfectly or do a bouncing bomb impression - as you will see on the 16th!
Oh and brakes are for steering not stopping...
Kingy
I generally agree, except on many aircraft the view ahead is virtually nil in the flare. I'm trying my hardest to think what I do... I think I pick up visual clues from whatever view I have, try to sort out any drift, keep the wings level and just keep flying. Hopefully this whole messy business results in another daisey cutter.
Unfortunatly most of my flying is done at a bumpy strip with up to 20% upslope and camber so a few hops and skips are perfectly acceptable. (that's my story and I'm sticking to it!)
On arrival at a 'normal' airfield I either grease it on perfectly or do a bouncing bomb impression - as you will see on the 16th!
Oh and brakes are for steering not stopping...
Kingy
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A timely post FFF. I'm just making the transition from the Katana to the 172 and it has been interesting putting it all together.
My last few landings have been a bit ragged and I put it down to the displaced threshold that we've had at EGKR on 08 for the last few weeks but point 4 has made me realise what the problem is. Simply, I've not been looking down the RWY far enough and I distinctly remember staring at the threshold thinking "this looks steep" and fixating on the ground in front of the spinner.
I'll try point 4 tomorrow and see what happens but if I go overboard on point 5 and end up on the M23, then you and I will be having words.....
My last few landings have been a bit ragged and I put it down to the displaced threshold that we've had at EGKR on 08 for the last few weeks but point 4 has made me realise what the problem is. Simply, I've not been looking down the RWY far enough and I distinctly remember staring at the threshold thinking "this looks steep" and fixating on the ground in front of the spinner.
I'll try point 4 tomorrow and see what happens but if I go overboard on point 5 and end up on the M23, then you and I will be having words.....
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Hi
Aerbabe: Just as well that we dont have to do all these things at the same time. Us poor blokes would not stand a chance of ever being able to learn to fly, let alone land the damn things!
Can't think of seven things to do during a landing!
Of course a successful landing is the result of going through the various steps in the right order but they dont all have to be done at the same time. Just as a good meal consists of a variety of dishes, not necessarily eaten all in the same course.
It was recently discussed on this forum on an older thread that landing is an activity that is not trained for very long. I estimate that per flight hour even if you do nothing but circuits and bumps less than 10 minutes is spent in the actual landing.
The more you train for this eye-handcoordination process the better you will get. Unfortunately (?) there are loads of different parameters that will almost invariably vary from one landing to the next. Weather. wind, aircraft set up, weight etc.
So you will need a fair stab at it before you come anywhere near making them reproducible. However providing that you do know the basics it is a skill (? art) that can be (re)mastered. Once mastered and exposed to at least a small variety of crafts it is amazing how easily it can be transferred to most other types of flying machinery (as you so ably demonstrated!
)
It is one of the most rewarding challenges that one can coach a pupil through a judicious amount of theory and loads of practice. I deliberately wrote down a judicious amount of theory as I think some people can blurr the process by putting too much emphasis on the theory. The eye hand coordination is the important bit.
FD
Aerbabe: Just as well that we dont have to do all these things at the same time. Us poor blokes would not stand a chance of ever being able to learn to fly, let alone land the damn things!
Can't think of seven things to do during a landing!
Of course a successful landing is the result of going through the various steps in the right order but they dont all have to be done at the same time. Just as a good meal consists of a variety of dishes, not necessarily eaten all in the same course.
It was recently discussed on this forum on an older thread that landing is an activity that is not trained for very long. I estimate that per flight hour even if you do nothing but circuits and bumps less than 10 minutes is spent in the actual landing.
The more you train for this eye-handcoordination process the better you will get. Unfortunately (?) there are loads of different parameters that will almost invariably vary from one landing to the next. Weather. wind, aircraft set up, weight etc.
So you will need a fair stab at it before you come anywhere near making them reproducible. However providing that you do know the basics it is a skill (? art) that can be (re)mastered. Once mastered and exposed to at least a small variety of crafts it is amazing how easily it can be transferred to most other types of flying machinery (as you so ably demonstrated!
)It is one of the most rewarding challenges that one can coach a pupil through a judicious amount of theory and loads of practice. I deliberately wrote down a judicious amount of theory as I think some people can blurr the process by putting too much emphasis on the theory. The eye hand coordination is the important bit.
FD
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I have never thought about landing, when actually landing. But come to think of it, I do seem to hold it off for a majorly long time.
I was lucky in that my best ever landing to this date was in my PPL skills test
My examiner told me he was chuffed. Neither of us felt it touch the grass until I lowed the nose wheel. I can't quite remember every detail of that landing but in that case I DIDN'T hold it off for a very long time. I must have just got it right. I must of beeing doing about 0.1fpm at touchdown lol. I remember doing a very very nice greaser at East mids one day. I was however screaming it down the GS at about 90KIAS and touch down at about 70 and it was superb.
Like I say, I don't really think aboiut, I just "feel" it down.
I was lucky in that my best ever landing to this date was in my PPL skills test
My examiner told me he was chuffed. Neither of us felt it touch the grass until I lowed the nose wheel. I can't quite remember every detail of that landing but in that case I DIDN'T hold it off for a very long time. I must have just got it right. I must of beeing doing about 0.1fpm at touchdown lol. I remember doing a very very nice greaser at East mids one day. I was however screaming it down the GS at about 90KIAS and touch down at about 70 and it was superb.Like I say, I don't really think aboiut, I just "feel" it down.
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Interesting link F3G. I'd heard it described much less scientifically - somthing about why nobody can remember the names of all the wombles at once! I seemed to remember that this 'information management' was just about the first thing to suffer when we drink alcohol - even before the hand-eye coordination.
OBK, the instructors at Sherburn do seem to teach landing well - and properly. They were always very keen on that loooooong hold-off - even on the shortest runway. The width of the grass over the tarmac must help - makes any sideways drift in the flare less critical (but still not correct of course).
OBK, the instructors at Sherburn do seem to teach landing well - and properly. They were always very keen on that loooooong hold-off - even on the shortest runway. The width of the grass over the tarmac must help - makes any sideways drift in the flare less critical (but still not correct of course).
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I too, like OBK!, tend to feel the landing rather than think about it.
To be honest I don't really know what I look at or how I sequence my thoughts during the landing phase.
Normally 5 out of 10 are great, 4 acceptable and one can be rotten: the funny thing is that I know that I am about to have a rotten landing while I'm still over the fence, even before the flair.
AE
To be honest I don't really know what I look at or how I sequence my thoughts during the landing phase.
Normally 5 out of 10 are great, 4 acceptable and one can be rotten: the funny thing is that I know that I am about to have a rotten landing while I'm still over the fence, even before the flair.
AE
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Very interesting range of replies here.
Sennadog, I didn't notice anything on the news about a C172 on the M23, so I assume it's going ok? Interesting thing, this holding off the runway idea... absolutely essential for a 3-pointer in a tail-dragger, but, although it's certainly good style, it's not quite so important in a tricycle as long as the nose is sufficiently high to protect the nose-gear.
AerBabe said: "This is something I've only really got the hang of since starting tailwheel flying" and I concur. I've only had one slightly dodgy tricycle landing in around 20 or 30 tricycle hours since I converted to tail-draggers.
FD, good point about not having to think about everything all at once, but one at a time. But it does seem that most posters prefer to do at least most of the landing subconciously - to "feel" it as OBK put it. Obviously this won't work during the early stages of training, because you don't know what you're feeling for. And, as I said to start with, I do need to stop and think about things from time to time, especially when I have a series of bad landings.
Ah, the mysteries of the good landing... so much has been written, but still it eludes most of us!
FFF
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Sennadog, I didn't notice anything on the news about a C172 on the M23, so I assume it's going ok? Interesting thing, this holding off the runway idea... absolutely essential for a 3-pointer in a tail-dragger, but, although it's certainly good style, it's not quite so important in a tricycle as long as the nose is sufficiently high to protect the nose-gear.
AerBabe said: "This is something I've only really got the hang of since starting tailwheel flying" and I concur. I've only had one slightly dodgy tricycle landing in around 20 or 30 tricycle hours since I converted to tail-draggers.
FD, good point about not having to think about everything all at once, but one at a time. But it does seem that most posters prefer to do at least most of the landing subconciously - to "feel" it as OBK put it. Obviously this won't work during the early stages of training, because you don't know what you're feeling for. And, as I said to start with, I do need to stop and think about things from time to time, especially when I have a series of bad landings.
Ah, the mysteries of the good landing... so much has been written, but still it eludes most of us!
FFF
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FFF
You wrote:
Which is a bit of a contradiction in terms!
You mentioned in your first post:
And see there the solution to most landing problems.
Just talk your way through it! Either out loud or just in your head (handy those little voices!)
Have fun!
FD
You wrote:
most posters prefer to do at least most of the landing subconciously
You mentioned in your first post:
Well, maybe not completely forgetting it - I was shifting my vision forward, but not far enough. Problem solved!
Just talk your way through it! Either out loud or just in your head (handy those little voices!)
Have fun!
FD
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FFF - that's because I didn't fly today. I'd forgotten that I hadn't flown the Katana for three months so I'm up in that tomorrow instead.
This flying lark's expensive!
This flying lark's expensive!
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FFF,
Went to Shobdon today for a cup of tea. It was my first hard runway landing for ages, wind was 8-10 at 110ish so no problem for RW09. Approach went well but with your post in mind I consciously looked ahead for the flare and hold off - guess what....? I performed a perfect, textbook three pointer exactly... er.. 1ft above the runway - dropping her on like a landing turkey!
My pax asked 'what happened there, we seemed to float for ages, then we just dropped' to which I just muttered something about the internet and not to worry about it.
Goes to show what can happen when you think too much !
Nice bacon sarnie though
Kingy
Went to Shobdon today for a cup of tea. It was my first hard runway landing for ages, wind was 8-10 at 110ish so no problem for RW09. Approach went well but with your post in mind I consciously looked ahead for the flare and hold off - guess what....? I performed a perfect, textbook three pointer exactly... er.. 1ft above the runway - dropping her on like a landing turkey!
My pax asked 'what happened there, we seemed to float for ages, then we just dropped' to which I just muttered something about the internet and not to worry about it.
Goes to show what can happen when you think too much !
Nice bacon sarnie though
Kingy
Last edited by Kingy; 25th Feb 2003 at 23:01.
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For some reason I've been a lot more consistent in the Archer than I was in a 152. No idea why... the faster approach is, if anything, more disconcerting on finals so you'd expect me to be a bit more tense and to make more errors as a result.
I do think the looking ahead has an awful to do with it... I was always focussed on the 20'in front of the prop for the first few hours of traiing and sorting that sorted a multitude of sins.
I think there's a strong attitude thing as well - if you feel relaxed and you like your approach you just tend to do everything more smoothly and the landings seem to work accordingly. This is certainly true of riding m/bikes - TRY and get round a corner at high speed and you'll mess it up. Settle in to the corner adn let the bike do it's work and hey presto - Kennie Roberts!
Hersh
I do think the looking ahead has an awful to do with it... I was always focussed on the 20'in front of the prop for the first few hours of traiing and sorting that sorted a multitude of sins.
I think there's a strong attitude thing as well - if you feel relaxed and you like your approach you just tend to do everything more smoothly and the landings seem to work accordingly. This is certainly true of riding m/bikes - TRY and get round a corner at high speed and you'll mess it up. Settle in to the corner adn let the bike do it's work and hey presto - Kennie Roberts!
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FFF
I found a good landing the hardest thing to master. I could do the hold off or the flare well but messed the other up. Took me a long time to do them both together well. I either flared to high or didn't keep pulling back and landed with a bump.
I was told about looking ahead but couldn't see what the instructor was telling me. After many circuit hours I eventually mastered it. I look ahead but "feel" it down and use my peripheral vision for the rate of sink.
Best advice I was given was "in order to land the plane well try to stop it from landing until it wins the battle"
Now my landings just "happen". I don't consciously think about the individual steps any more.
Eventually everything just "clicks"
regards NH
I found a good landing the hardest thing to master. I could do the hold off or the flare well but messed the other up. Took me a long time to do them both together well. I either flared to high or didn't keep pulling back and landed with a bump.
I was told about looking ahead but couldn't see what the instructor was telling me. After many circuit hours I eventually mastered it. I look ahead but "feel" it down and use my peripheral vision for the rate of sink.
Best advice I was given was "in order to land the plane well try to stop it from landing until it wins the battle"
Now my landings just "happen". I don't consciously think about the individual steps any more.
Eventually everything just "clicks"
regards NH
