Renewing UK PPL
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Renewing UK PPL
I'm currently doing some training to renew my PPL , originally obtained in 1983, after a gap of more than 10 years. After reading all the bumpf from the CAA website I'm still unclear about a few things.
What I'm not sure of is whether I can keep my original UK PPL (no 5 yearly renewal) or on passing the skills test will I have to have a JAA one? The CAA seem to imply that it is the SE rating that needs renewing, not the licence.
Is so are there any significant difference between the priviliges of the two licences?
Do I need to renew my Radio Telephony licence (on which it states it is valid whilst the associated licence is valid i.e. for life) - the CAA seem to be saying yes but my FTO say no?I assume this may be the case for more recently issued licences, but hopefully not for mine.
Can anyone help?
What I'm not sure of is whether I can keep my original UK PPL (no 5 yearly renewal) or on passing the skills test will I have to have a JAA one? The CAA seem to imply that it is the SE rating that needs renewing, not the licence.
Is so are there any significant difference between the priviliges of the two licences?
Do I need to renew my Radio Telephony licence (on which it states it is valid whilst the associated licence is valid i.e. for life) - the CAA seem to be saying yes but my FTO say no?I assume this may be the case for more recently issued licences, but hopefully not for mine.
Can anyone help?
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Your UK licence is non-expiring. You will be renewing the SEP(Land) class rating with the training and skill test that has been specified.
You may be issued with a new licence (possibly with a new number if you have an old 5 digit PPL), but it is effectively a renewal of your old licence with a new class rating.
Class rating requirements & privileges on UK licences are now virtually identical to JAR ones except that it is restricted to UK registered aircraft. You may however fly other JAR registered aircraft with day/VMC only privileges. So no real advantage in converting to a JAR licence.
The FRTOL is non-expiring and you need do nothing (a brush up with the latest CAP413 - available online - may be a good idea).
You may be issued with a new licence (possibly with a new number if you have an old 5 digit PPL), but it is effectively a renewal of your old licence with a new class rating.
Class rating requirements & privileges on UK licences are now virtually identical to JAR ones except that it is restricted to UK registered aircraft. You may however fly other JAR registered aircraft with day/VMC only privileges. So no real advantage in converting to a JAR licence.
The FRTOL is non-expiring and you need do nothing (a brush up with the latest CAP413 - available online - may be a good idea).
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Mark 1
That's great news, thanks.
Yes I've got a copy of CAP 413, the AFE flying training series books, and the PPL confuser. I'm aiming to be at a point where I could pass the ground exams if I had to - but luckily I don't have to!
Baldwinm
That's great news, thanks.
Yes I've got a copy of CAP 413, the AFE flying training series books, and the PPL confuser. I'm aiming to be at a point where I could pass the ground exams if I had to - but luckily I don't have to!
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"Class rating requirements & privileges on UK licences are now virtually identical to JAR ones except that it is restricted to UK registered aircraft."
Not strictly correct. The PPL priviliges are greater with a UK licence than a JAA PPL. You can fly IFR outside controlled airspace, wheras a JAA licence restricts the holder to VFR only.
The restriction to UK registered aircraft is a statement in the licence which is not strictly true. What it means is that the licence does not necessarily give you the right to fly an aircraft registered in another State unless that State agree. Not quite the same thing!
"You may however fly other JAR registered aircraft with day/VMC only privileges."
I think you are confused with flying UK reg aircraft on the basis of an ICAO licence!
To fly an aircraft from another State depends upon the laws of that State. For example you can fly an N reg aircraft in the UK with full UK licence privileges but only in the State of licence issue. In theory, you can fly any JAA reg aircraft in the UK, with full UK licence privileges; to fly it in another JAA State, requires the approval of that State.
The FRTOL remains vaild provided it is used. If it has not been used for 10 years then you will have to revalidate it by passing the written and practical test. LASORS 2003 para B1.6.
Not strictly correct. The PPL priviliges are greater with a UK licence than a JAA PPL. You can fly IFR outside controlled airspace, wheras a JAA licence restricts the holder to VFR only.
The restriction to UK registered aircraft is a statement in the licence which is not strictly true. What it means is that the licence does not necessarily give you the right to fly an aircraft registered in another State unless that State agree. Not quite the same thing!
"You may however fly other JAR registered aircraft with day/VMC only privileges."
I think you are confused with flying UK reg aircraft on the basis of an ICAO licence!
To fly an aircraft from another State depends upon the laws of that State. For example you can fly an N reg aircraft in the UK with full UK licence privileges but only in the State of licence issue. In theory, you can fly any JAA reg aircraft in the UK, with full UK licence privileges; to fly it in another JAA State, requires the approval of that State.
The FRTOL remains vaild provided it is used. If it has not been used for 10 years then you will have to revalidate it by passing the written and practical test. LASORS 2003 para B1.6.
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FRTOL validity
StrateandLevel
"The FRTOL remains vaild provided it is used. If it has not been used for 10 years then you will have to revalidate it by passing the written and practical test. LASORS 2003 para B1.6."
This seems to contradict what it says on the licence itself i.e the licence is valid whilst the PPL is or words to that effect. Perhaps more recent ( but still > 10 years old) licences don't have that wording? I await clarification from the CAA but if past experience is anything to go by they'll just send printouts of documents on the website which don't really help.
"The FRTOL remains vaild provided it is used. If it has not been used for 10 years then you will have to revalidate it by passing the written and practical test. LASORS 2003 para B1.6."
This seems to contradict what it says on the licence itself i.e the licence is valid whilst the PPL is or words to that effect. Perhaps more recent ( but still > 10 years old) licences don't have that wording? I await clarification from the CAA but if past experience is anything to go by they'll just send printouts of documents on the website which don't really help.
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StrateandLevel
You can fly IFR outside controlled airspace, wheras a JAA licence restricts the holder to VFR only.
WOW! Where did this come from?
Does this mean what I think it means - that a vanilla JAA PPL holder cannot fly IFR in (UK) Class F/G airspace whereas a vanilla CAA PPL holder can?
Shirley you jest 
You can fly IFR outside controlled airspace, wheras a JAA licence restricts the holder to VFR only.
WOW! Where did this come from?
Does this mean what I think it means - that a vanilla JAA PPL holder cannot fly IFR in (UK) Class F/G airspace whereas a vanilla CAA PPL holder can?
Shirley you jest
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StrateandLevel
So, clutching her well worn vanilla CAA PPL, she just has to ask:-
"Why did I spend all that blood, sweat, toll, tears & MONEY, getting & keeping an IMC rating????"
With a CAA PPL .....You can fly IFR outside controlled airpspace......
"Why did I spend all that blood, sweat, toll, tears & MONEY, getting & keeping an IMC rating????"
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distaff_beancounter
"Why did I spend all that blood, sweat, toll, tears & MONEY, getting & keeping an IMC rating????"
Calm down
We're at crossed porpoises again...
You need an IMC or IR to fly in IMC - nowt to do with IFR in uncontrolled airspace
Vanilla PPL gives you IFR in VMC in uncontrolled airspace in the UK - the only confusion is whether that is only applicable to CAA (old) licences, or is still applicable to JAA ones.
My gut feeling is it still applies whether it's CAA or JAA licence issued in the UK.
"Why did I spend all that blood, sweat, toll, tears & MONEY, getting & keeping an IMC rating????"
Calm down
We're at crossed porpoises again...
You need an IMC or IR to fly in IMC - nowt to do with IFR in uncontrolled airspace
Vanilla PPL gives you IFR in VMC in uncontrolled airspace in the UK - the only confusion is whether that is only applicable to CAA (old) licences, or is still applicable to JAA ones.
My gut feeling is it still applies whether it's CAA or JAA licence issued in the UK.
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rustle
OK, so next time I will engage brain before clicking the Submit Reply button
Never could understand the difference twix IFR & IMC
But, then of course, you can fly IFR in VMC, at night without an IMC or IR. See I got one bit right!
OK, so next time I will engage brain before clicking the Submit Reply button
Never could understand the difference twix IFR & IMC
But, then of course, you can fly IFR in VMC, at night without an IMC or IR. See I got one bit right!
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BaldwinM
I can only offer my recent experience of renewing an outdated UK PPL, although it was much further outdated than yours (1968).
1) I was informed that the UK would issue a JAA PPL, not a UK one,
2) I had to pass ALL examinations, including the R/T licence.
The CAA have a GID (18?) on this, which covers the case of less than 5 years, 5 to 10 years and more than 10 years out of date.
My recall of the more than 10 years is:
a) mimimum of 10 hours flying,
b) including a minimum of 4 hours solo, which can include the qualifying x-country
c) 4 hours of x-country, including a qualifying solo x-country with 2 land-aways and mimimum distance (150km?)
d) at least 2 hours stall/spin awareness
e) instrument training to the satisfaction of the CFI
f) skills test
In the end I did 25 hours, but that was partly due to the problem of not realising my medically prescribed glasses (to conform to JAA standards) was preventing me from seeing the runway at the flare
I can only offer my recent experience of renewing an outdated UK PPL, although it was much further outdated than yours (1968).
1) I was informed that the UK would issue a JAA PPL, not a UK one,
2) I had to pass ALL examinations, including the R/T licence.
The CAA have a GID (18?) on this, which covers the case of less than 5 years, 5 to 10 years and more than 10 years out of date.
My recall of the more than 10 years is:
a) mimimum of 10 hours flying,
b) including a minimum of 4 hours solo, which can include the qualifying x-country
c) 4 hours of x-country, including a qualifying solo x-country with 2 land-aways and mimimum distance (150km?)
d) at least 2 hours stall/spin awareness
e) instrument training to the satisfaction of the CFI
f) skills test
In the end I did 25 hours, but that was partly due to the problem of not realising my medically prescribed glasses (to conform to JAA standards) was preventing me from seeing the runway at the flare
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UK or JAA
Groundbound
This CAA document
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SRG_FCL_Gid35.PDF
seems to indicate that the FTROL is for life.
The document below indicates that I don't need to pass any of the ground exams but contradicts the above document in stating that a FTROL that has not been used for ten years requires both the practical and written exams to be passed again - this is a recent change to this document, added since I last checked. Again this directly contradicts what is stated on the licence itself.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_gid33.pdf
I think it's time the CAA got it's act in order on this one and stopped restrospectively moving the goalposts. I don't mind doing the FTROL exam again if I have to but i would at least like them to give me a straight answer.
I can find nothing that indicates I will have to relinquish my UK licence for a JAA one.
Baldwinm
This CAA document
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SRG_FCL_Gid35.PDF
seems to indicate that the FTROL is for life.
The document below indicates that I don't need to pass any of the ground exams but contradicts the above document in stating that a FTROL that has not been used for ten years requires both the practical and written exams to be passed again - this is a recent change to this document, added since I last checked. Again this directly contradicts what is stated on the licence itself.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_gid33.pdf
I think it's time the CAA got it's act in order on this one and stopped restrospectively moving the goalposts. I don't mind doing the FTROL exam again if I have to but i would at least like them to give me a straight answer.
I can find nothing that indicates I will have to relinquish my UK licence for a JAA one.
Baldwinm
Last edited by baldwinm; 24th Jan 2003 at 15:33.
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I can but repeat what I said above - its what they made me do, because it was more than 10 years expired.
When I renewed my licence it was in October 2001. Maybe things have changed since then.
I can't say that I had any help from them. Whenever I rang, I got the usual "our lines are busy, but your call is important to us" cr@p. Writing to them just resulted in a copy of a GID which I had already downloaded from on their web site.
I hope you get better results - good luck
When I renewed my licence it was in October 2001. Maybe things have changed since then.
I can't say that I had any help from them. Whenever I rang, I got the usual "our lines are busy, but your call is important to us" cr@p. Writing to them just resulted in a copy of a GID which I had already downloaded from on their web site.
I hope you get better results - good luck
baldwinm -
1. Look in the front of your old PPL and check whether it states (probably in para IX): ' This licence shall remain in force from (date) for the holder's lifetime unless revoked, suspended or varied '. If so, then it's a UK lifetime PPL. But you can't enjoy the privileges unless you have a valid 'Rating' - and that's what you'll be 'renewing'.
2. To renew your Single Engine Piston (Land) Class Rating, as you haven't flown for over 10 years you'll be required to do the following - obviously you'll need sufficient training to do so:
2.1 Hold at least a JAR Class 2 medical certificate.
2.2 Pass the SEP renewal proficiency check with an Examiner.
2.3 Pass an oral examination conducted by an Examiner as part of the check.
2.4 Send all the paperwork off to the CAA with the relevant fee. State quite categorically that your hold a lifetime UK PPL (if you do) and do NOT want a JAR-FCL licence (which are only valid for 5 years).
3. I agree that the FRTOL question is unclear. It does indeed state quite categorically that where a UK national licence has been issued with lifetime validity, the FRTOL will be deemed to be valid as long as the associated flight crew licence remains valid. But if you haven't 'exercised the privileges' of your lifetime FRTOL for more than 10 years, then it seems that you'll need to do the whole RTF test (theoretical and practical) again.
But what constitutes 'exercising the privileges' of the licence? For example, if you have been flying with another PPL holder and have used the radio, would that count? I don't know - you'll have to press the CAA on this as the guidance in LASORS isn't sufficiently clear on this.
1. Look in the front of your old PPL and check whether it states (probably in para IX): ' This licence shall remain in force from (date) for the holder's lifetime unless revoked, suspended or varied '. If so, then it's a UK lifetime PPL. But you can't enjoy the privileges unless you have a valid 'Rating' - and that's what you'll be 'renewing'.
2. To renew your Single Engine Piston (Land) Class Rating, as you haven't flown for over 10 years you'll be required to do the following - obviously you'll need sufficient training to do so:
2.1 Hold at least a JAR Class 2 medical certificate.
2.2 Pass the SEP renewal proficiency check with an Examiner.
2.3 Pass an oral examination conducted by an Examiner as part of the check.
2.4 Send all the paperwork off to the CAA with the relevant fee. State quite categorically that your hold a lifetime UK PPL (if you do) and do NOT want a JAR-FCL licence (which are only valid for 5 years).
3. I agree that the FRTOL question is unclear. It does indeed state quite categorically that where a UK national licence has been issued with lifetime validity, the FRTOL will be deemed to be valid as long as the associated flight crew licence remains valid. But if you haven't 'exercised the privileges' of your lifetime FRTOL for more than 10 years, then it seems that you'll need to do the whole RTF test (theoretical and practical) again.
But what constitutes 'exercising the privileges' of the licence? For example, if you have been flying with another PPL holder and have used the radio, would that count? I don't know - you'll have to press the CAA on this as the guidance in LASORS isn't sufficiently clear on this.
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BEagle
I've just received a reply from the CAA - this confirms what you say except that I need to take a full JAA skills test rather than the rating renewal check.
Also they state
"As your email suggests, your RT licence is valid as long as you PPL(A) is valid and therefore there are no renewal requirements needed"
Which again contradicts guidance documents on their own website. So I shall keep on pursuing them until they can give me a satisfactory answer and identify which of their documents are correct and which are not. I will post the conclusions of my investigations on this forum when they are complete.
Also they state
"As your email suggests, your RT licence is valid as long as you PPL(A) is valid and therefore there are no renewal requirements needed"
Which again contradicts guidance documents on their own website. So I shall keep on pursuing them until they can give me a satisfactory answer and identify which of their documents are correct and which are not. I will post the conclusions of my investigations on this forum when they are complete.
