Little Cubs - Info Needed
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: London UK
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Little Cubs - Info Needed
I'm thinking of buying a 65hp Cub for fun and frolicks (and perhaps a lasting relationship). I've flown the Super Cub a fair bit and I'm aware that the 65hp machine is no load lifter but how STOL is it? What are your experiences?
What should I look for/look out for?
Anyone know of any nice Cubs around the UK and for sale?
I look forwards to your responses either here or at [email protected]
Thanks
What should I look for/look out for?
Anyone know of any nice Cubs around the UK and for sale?
I look forwards to your responses either here or at [email protected]
Thanks
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
May be of interest:
http://www.aviationconsumer.com/pub/...de/4999-1.html
http://store.yahoo.com/esscoac/noname102.html
http://www.danford.net/pipercub.htm
http://santapaulaairport.com/pipercub.htm
I have often heard that longeron corrosion can be a problem, and this is discussed, or at least mentioned, in this article: http://members.eaa.org/home/flight_r...piper_cub.html
http://www.aviationconsumer.com/pub/...de/4999-1.html
http://store.yahoo.com/esscoac/noname102.html
http://www.danford.net/pipercub.htm
http://santapaulaairport.com/pipercub.htm
I have often heard that longeron corrosion can be a problem, and this is discussed, or at least mentioned, in this article: http://members.eaa.org/home/flight_r...piper_cub.html
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Bristol and Forest of Dean
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
M 14p
As a co owner of a 65HP L4 Cub let me answer some of your questions.
It's not a bad load lifter actually - gross is 1220lbs and most weigh 750lb ish empty so that's 470lbs useful load. Standard fuel is 12 us gallons (70lbs) which leaves 400lbs for crew and baggage.
Lets look at the STOL performance - they will land at least as short as a Super Cub with the right technique, but take off is a big variable. One up with a few knots headwind mine literally leaps off the ground in less than 100 yds - with 15 or 20kts we're talking a few plane lengths and she's off... At the other end of the scale, with two fat blokes on board and full fuel on a hot day
we’re talking 200-maybe 250 yds max, which is still pretty good.
Bear in mind the above relates to a strong running engine with a modern fine prop. With an old Sensenich cruise prop she was a much more marginal aeroplane taking ages when loaded to get off.
Unlike the Super Cub it's Soloed from the back and yes the instruments are still in the front - so you will soon get used to taking the odd peek past the passenger but flying largely be feel - this is a good thing...
I much prefer the handling of a J3/L4 to a PA18. The controls seem more direct and responsive, particularly the rudder which seems higher geared and more powerful. The trim is nicer too being higher geared also. The sticks are longer in the J3 and in the back at least falls nicer to the hand.
Carb heat is a long stretch forward down by your right foot - and you'll need plenty of it... A 65's ice up for a pastime.
Performance? Stall high 30's mph, cruise 75mph (ish) approach no higher than 60, 55 solo and 50 if you really want to get in short as they float a lot more than a PA 18 (no flaps, same wing and much less weight) climb 50-60mph 450 FPM at gross, more solo - climb angle is good because of the slow speeds. VNE 100 MPH.
What to look out for? These aircraft are at least 57 years old and most have been rebuilt a few times by now - its unusual to see a tatty one (except mine!). There is an AD on the Wing struts to check, but many have been fitted with new sealed struts, which means no AD so that's a good point. Corrosion at the rear of the fuselage where water collects can also be a problem. Most have wooden spars, but a few of the later ones have an ally spar, which could be a plus. The brakes are rubbish even when working well and some parts getting hard to find and expensive. An aircraft on a PFA Permit generally is more sought after than one on a C of A. Finally, the engine is a gem - no one seems to know the TBO, but I've got one in a BC12 with 2500hrs SMOH still going strong - they start and run beautifully. The best news is, if the worst happens to the engine running used ones only go for around £2.5K - Brilliant.
All in all a great, great aircraft.
You are very welcome to come and have go in mine anytime to see if you like it.
I may well know of one for sale - It’s a J3C and it’s beautiful - I'll check and get back to you.
Kingy
As a co owner of a 65HP L4 Cub let me answer some of your questions.
It's not a bad load lifter actually - gross is 1220lbs and most weigh 750lb ish empty so that's 470lbs useful load. Standard fuel is 12 us gallons (70lbs) which leaves 400lbs for crew and baggage.
Lets look at the STOL performance - they will land at least as short as a Super Cub with the right technique, but take off is a big variable. One up with a few knots headwind mine literally leaps off the ground in less than 100 yds - with 15 or 20kts we're talking a few plane lengths and she's off... At the other end of the scale, with two fat blokes on board and full fuel on a hot day
we’re talking 200-maybe 250 yds max, which is still pretty good.
Bear in mind the above relates to a strong running engine with a modern fine prop. With an old Sensenich cruise prop she was a much more marginal aeroplane taking ages when loaded to get off.
Unlike the Super Cub it's Soloed from the back and yes the instruments are still in the front - so you will soon get used to taking the odd peek past the passenger but flying largely be feel - this is a good thing...
I much prefer the handling of a J3/L4 to a PA18. The controls seem more direct and responsive, particularly the rudder which seems higher geared and more powerful. The trim is nicer too being higher geared also. The sticks are longer in the J3 and in the back at least falls nicer to the hand.
Carb heat is a long stretch forward down by your right foot - and you'll need plenty of it... A 65's ice up for a pastime.
Performance? Stall high 30's mph, cruise 75mph (ish) approach no higher than 60, 55 solo and 50 if you really want to get in short as they float a lot more than a PA 18 (no flaps, same wing and much less weight) climb 50-60mph 450 FPM at gross, more solo - climb angle is good because of the slow speeds. VNE 100 MPH.
What to look out for? These aircraft are at least 57 years old and most have been rebuilt a few times by now - its unusual to see a tatty one (except mine!). There is an AD on the Wing struts to check, but many have been fitted with new sealed struts, which means no AD so that's a good point. Corrosion at the rear of the fuselage where water collects can also be a problem. Most have wooden spars, but a few of the later ones have an ally spar, which could be a plus. The brakes are rubbish even when working well and some parts getting hard to find and expensive. An aircraft on a PFA Permit generally is more sought after than one on a C of A. Finally, the engine is a gem - no one seems to know the TBO, but I've got one in a BC12 with 2500hrs SMOH still going strong - they start and run beautifully. The best news is, if the worst happens to the engine running used ones only go for around £2.5K - Brilliant.
All in all a great, great aircraft.
You are very welcome to come and have go in mine anytime to see if you like it.
I may well know of one for sale - It’s a J3C and it’s beautiful - I'll check and get back to you.
Kingy
Last edited by Kingy; 15th Jan 2003 at 03:00.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: London UK
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for replys so far. Very informative.
I've flown most of the variants although I was never looking that closely at the performance since it was always from large fields. I was really hoping to use the aircraft to pop in on friends with 300 metre-ish strips (all with good approaches/overshoots) so it looks like it's in the frame as a choice still.
I've flown most of the variants although I was never looking that closely at the performance since it was always from large fields. I was really hoping to use the aircraft to pop in on friends with 300 metre-ish strips (all with good approaches/overshoots) so it looks like it's in the frame as a choice still.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First of all, where are you going to base your Cub? Close enough for me to get a ride? 
PA18 is my favourite aircraft that I've flown so far, but never flown any of the smaller Cubs, would love to have a go!
Anyway, the short-field performance... the PA18 doesn't have any performance graphs in the POH, so I'd suspect the other Cubs don't either. Kingy's post suggests that what you're planning on doing is quite achievable, but we all know that every aircraft is different, especially when they get to that kind of age. So I'd certainly want to come up with some kind of performance figures for the specific aircraft you buy, before going into any kind of short field. Never done anything like that myself, but read a bit about it a few times, and it sounds like getting the figures together would be good fun in itself!
FFF
----------------
PA18 is my favourite aircraft that I've flown so far, but never flown any of the smaller Cubs, would love to have a go!Anyway, the short-field performance... the PA18 doesn't have any performance graphs in the POH, so I'd suspect the other Cubs don't either. Kingy's post suggests that what you're planning on doing is quite achievable, but we all know that every aircraft is different, especially when they get to that kind of age. So I'd certainly want to come up with some kind of performance figures for the specific aircraft you buy, before going into any kind of short field. Never done anything like that myself, but read a bit about it a few times, and it sounds like getting the figures together would be good fun in itself!
FFF
----------------
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kingy says it all, really. Absolutely agree with his post. I used to fly an L4 and it was much nicer and more fun (but much slower) than the Super Cub, which I think a tad over rated.
I wrote a peice on the L4 in 'Pilot' many years back - it's listed in their 'flight tests' list in most issues.
A friend of mine is looking for an L4, which I may share myself. We are prepared to pay good money for a really good one on a permit. Anyone who knows of one, please mail me.
SSD
I wrote a peice on the L4 in 'Pilot' many years back - it's listed in their 'flight tests' list in most issues.
A friend of mine is looking for an L4, which I may share myself. We are prepared to pay good money for a really good one on a permit. Anyone who knows of one, please mail me.
SSD
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
M14P,
I am afraid you won't have time for that. You will be far too busy beasting DJM and me in the '52.
http://www.yak52.aero/
I am afraid you won't have time for that. You will be far too busy beasting DJM and me in the '52.
http://www.yak52.aero/
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Bristol and Forest of Dean
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
M 14p
For what it's worth I generally consider my Cub safe into 300M strips with 2 on board. Judgement is required however in assessing factors like long grass, upslope, DA etc. - it's a 2 seater with only 65HP so ultimate grunt IS limited.
Don't think of it as a PA18 with only 65HP though - it's a lighter aircraft with a lower wing loading and it's eager to fly...
QDM
Sounds like a good idea! and you are welcome into Eastbach any time..
Kingy
For what it's worth I generally consider my Cub safe into 300M strips with 2 on board. Judgement is required however in assessing factors like long grass, upslope, DA etc. - it's a 2 seater with only 65HP so ultimate grunt IS limited.
Don't think of it as a PA18 with only 65HP though - it's a lighter aircraft with a lower wing loading and it's eager to fly...
QDM
Sounds like a good idea! and you are welcome into Eastbach any time..
Kingy
Last edited by Kingy; 15th Jan 2003 at 15:08.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
THere are too many people wanting to buy cubs!
Can I just point out that there are plenty of nice taildraggers around that can easily fullfil the tasks you have in mind for the cub!
So,
Let have a look at these links and see if I can find a nice one for myself.
FD
They are just sooooo nice.
Can I just point out that there are plenty of nice taildraggers around that can easily fullfil the tasks you have in mind for the cub!
So,
Let have a look at these links and see if I can find a nice one for myself.
FD
They are just sooooo nice.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can I just point out that there are plenty of nice taildraggers around that can easily fullfil the tasks you have in mind for the cub!
If you have fallen in love with the L4, there is absolutely NO alternative that 'does it' - or comes near.
Maybe they should start making them again? Then again, no. To do it properly would cost a fortune today.
SSD
If you have fallen in love with the L4, there is absolutely NO alternative that 'does it' - or comes near.
Maybe they should start making them again? Then again, no. To do it properly would cost a fortune today.
SSD
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Try Wag Aero
Shaggy says: "Maybe they should start making them again? Then again, no. To do it properly would cost a fortune today."
Fortunately, you can still get the Wag Aero Sport Trainer, which does not cost a fortune and is very close to the original J3:
http://www.wagaero.com/sportrain.html
http://www.fliteguide.co.za/Imperial...g_Aero_pg1.htm
Fortunately, you can still get the Wag Aero Sport Trainer, which does not cost a fortune and is very close to the original J3:
http://www.wagaero.com/sportrain.html
http://www.fliteguide.co.za/Imperial...g_Aero_pg1.htm
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shaggy says: "Maybe they should start making them again? Then again, no. To do it properly would cost a fortune today. Fortunately, you can still get the Wag Aero Sport Trainer, which does not cost a fortune and is very close to the original J3: "
Nah, It's flown from the front seat like a Super Cub, not the rear, like an L4. It's that rear seat view out of the open side that is so much a part of the L4 experience.
OK, it looks nice, but there's a bigger problem than the seating - you have to build it yourself! I'm a flyer, not a builder (can just about manage an Airfix kit). So it's not for me.
SSD
Nah, It's flown from the front seat like a Super Cub, not the rear, like an L4. It's that rear seat view out of the open side that is so much a part of the L4 experience.
OK, it looks nice, but there's a bigger problem than the seating - you have to build it yourself! I'm a flyer, not a builder (can just about manage an Airfix kit). So it's not for me.
SSD
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 16th Jan 2003 at 11:05.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: too near London
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, yes - another believer!
Perhaps I have low expectations but I have not yet flown the J3 and been in the slightest bit bored with 65HP or 73MPH. If the HP is a problem it is perfectly possible to upgrade to a larger motor(up to 100 HP, but 85 apparently the best all-rounder) but you lose the charm and originality..
From 1946 on the J3s had metal spars, but if you want a fairly original L4 it will have wooden ones. ADs as Kingy says are not a problem - most relate to the 40s and 50s - but as he says check the struts (almost£2k for sealed units with larger forks -well worth it quite apart frm the lack of repeat checks) and the spar strut attach fitting inspection AD (hole cut in LE wrap to inspect forward facing fitting). Check for corrosion on the lower fuselage tubes (not only at the back!). Ensure the wing/fuselage/engine mount and tailplane are all square to each other! In flight, carefully check the trim operates without slipping. It's a very simple machine and easy to work on (except the trim system which can be trying) so that adds to the enjoyment! No question, therefore find a Permit aircraft
On the minus side cramped forward seat, inability to reach the instruments from back seat, 20lb baggage compartment and a crap cabin heater. Standard 12 USG tank limits the range especially when the wind is blowing so accept that you'll make plenty of fuel stops! Again, perfectly possible to find machines with wing tanks, or you can fit one yourself. I use Mogas at home and have had absolutely no trouble (£12 or £13 an hour!!) The Brakes are, well, J3 brakes and here I disagree with Kingy - I think that they are perfectly adequate (a lot of nose overs are on Cubs with disc conversions) and are fine for strip flying and absolutely essential if you want to operate in goodly x-winds or land with any downwind component so it's best to keep 'em serviced. Inner tubes and tyres are hellish expensive, too.
STOL is a given - absolutely no trouble with 300m at all up weight, nil wind and Summer temps. A lot less than that if conditions are right. One up and light you can really have some fun!! Ground run are v. short during TO and Landing but angle of climb is poor. Sorry. But, as I say, if it's windy you've got yourself a poor man's helicopter!
Anyway when it comes down to it, bimbling along at 70MPH, doors open at less than 1000' on a summer's day is heavenly.
Especially, when nonradio...
Perhaps I have low expectations but I have not yet flown the J3 and been in the slightest bit bored with 65HP or 73MPH. If the HP is a problem it is perfectly possible to upgrade to a larger motor(up to 100 HP, but 85 apparently the best all-rounder) but you lose the charm and originality..
From 1946 on the J3s had metal spars, but if you want a fairly original L4 it will have wooden ones. ADs as Kingy says are not a problem - most relate to the 40s and 50s - but as he says check the struts (almost£2k for sealed units with larger forks -well worth it quite apart frm the lack of repeat checks) and the spar strut attach fitting inspection AD (hole cut in LE wrap to inspect forward facing fitting). Check for corrosion on the lower fuselage tubes (not only at the back!). Ensure the wing/fuselage/engine mount and tailplane are all square to each other! In flight, carefully check the trim operates without slipping. It's a very simple machine and easy to work on (except the trim system which can be trying) so that adds to the enjoyment! No question, therefore find a Permit aircraft
On the minus side cramped forward seat, inability to reach the instruments from back seat, 20lb baggage compartment and a crap cabin heater. Standard 12 USG tank limits the range especially when the wind is blowing so accept that you'll make plenty of fuel stops! Again, perfectly possible to find machines with wing tanks, or you can fit one yourself. I use Mogas at home and have had absolutely no trouble (£12 or £13 an hour!!) The Brakes are, well, J3 brakes and here I disagree with Kingy - I think that they are perfectly adequate (a lot of nose overs are on Cubs with disc conversions) and are fine for strip flying and absolutely essential if you want to operate in goodly x-winds or land with any downwind component so it's best to keep 'em serviced. Inner tubes and tyres are hellish expensive, too.
STOL is a given - absolutely no trouble with 300m at all up weight, nil wind and Summer temps. A lot less than that if conditions are right. One up and light you can really have some fun!! Ground run are v. short during TO and Landing but angle of climb is poor. Sorry. But, as I say, if it's windy you've got yourself a poor man's helicopter!
Anyway when it comes down to it, bimbling along at 70MPH, doors open at less than 1000' on a summer's day is heavenly.
Especially, when nonradio...
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Over the hedge... just!
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can understand your desire for a Cub. I did my taildragger difference training in a J3 in Florida sunshine with no door, absolute heaven. On return to UK ditched the club share in a PA28 and looked for a share in a J3. Unfortunately the ones I looked at seemed to have higher than the previously stated empty weight and a lower MAUW. Being a big bloke (FB shirt size) it was either full fuel or a passenger not both. Dreams shattered I found a Supercub PA18-95 on a permit. Wonderful, loads of load carrying capability and cheap to run (C-90 running mogas) I fly from a 400m strip which we only seem to use less than half . Any of the cubs are an absolute delight to fly. The fact it takes twice as long to get anywhere is an advantage IMHO.
Sounds like we should have a PPRUNE Cub fly in
Good luck
CC
Sounds like we should have a PPRUNE Cub fly in
Good luck
CC
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: London UK
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks all for some really good responses.
I'm also considering offering the aircraft out for tailwheel checkouts and the like on an 'I'll bring the aircraft to you' basis in the London area (I'm an instructor, too) but this will take a little while to set up so I'll get the aircraft first.
I still haven't got any good leads on an aircraft yet and it'll need to live somewhere...
Anybody know a friendly farm strip with hangar in the Berks/Hants/Surrey area?
Thanks again all
I'm also considering offering the aircraft out for tailwheel checkouts and the like on an 'I'll bring the aircraft to you' basis in the London area (I'm an instructor, too) but this will take a little while to set up so I'll get the aircraft first.
I still haven't got any good leads on an aircraft yet and it'll need to live somewhere...
Anybody know a friendly farm strip with hangar in the Berks/Hants/Surrey area?
Thanks again all
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kingy says about peering round the pax. but a few people I know fly it solo from the rear and 2 up from the front to get round that problem, either way not really difficult. 
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It does sound like fun, doesn't it!
Except that I'm not current on the Super Cub, having not flown one for around 9 months. That can be easilly fixed tho The cost of renting the Super Cub, compared to the normal cost of flying the Europa, will be a bit harder to swallow though...
FFF
-------------
Except that I'm not current on the Super Cub, having not flown one for around 9 months. That can be easilly fixed tho
The cost of renting the Super Cub, compared to the normal cost of flying the Europa, will be a bit harder to swallow though...FFF
-------------
Not so N, but still FG
Join Date: May 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FFF, assuming
(1) that we and some other small Cub enthusiasts in the London area can't find a suitable J3/L4 to put a group around (judging by the postings above, there would be enough of us to do this if the right aircraft could be found)
and
(2) that I can be bothered to shell out the outrageous wonga demanded by WLAC to check out on the Supercub
....we could split the cost and share the flying to and from the notional Cub fly-in
I have almost succumbed to (2) recently, as my own group aircraft, and my friend's L4 in which I did my tailwheel conversion, are both up on blocks at the moment, so, on the rare occasions when the wind stops howling, I have nothing to fly in.
(1) that we and some other small Cub enthusiasts in the London area can't find a suitable J3/L4 to put a group around (judging by the postings above, there would be enough of us to do this if the right aircraft could be found)
and
(2) that I can be bothered to shell out the outrageous wonga demanded by WLAC to check out on the Supercub
....we could split the cost and share the flying to and from the notional Cub fly-in
I have almost succumbed to (2) recently, as my own group aircraft, and my friend's L4 in which I did my tailwheel conversion, are both up on blocks at the moment, so, on the rare occasions when the wind stops howling, I have nothing to fly in.