Circuit Join
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Circuit Join
This may sound a touch daft but my brain has gone dead and I was wondering if some of you fine people can assist?
Picture.
Flying in northerly direction to destination. Wind is from the north and the active is 36 with right hand circuit. Parachute operations at the field and A/G radio. Obvious is to "request" straight in but as I've seen on a few threads this could cause an unpleasant conflict. Would you fly east of the airfield and join downwind or go for the straight in method?
Anybody got any suggestions?
Thanks
Picture.
Flying in northerly direction to destination. Wind is from the north and the active is 36 with right hand circuit. Parachute operations at the field and A/G radio. Obvious is to "request" straight in but as I've seen on a few threads this could cause an unpleasant conflict. Would you fly east of the airfield and join downwind or go for the straight in method?
Anybody got any suggestions?
Thanks
Guest
Posts: n/a
Joins
I think it would depend on the parachute activity. Id prefer to approach from the south east, join in the overhead at 2000ft, decend deadside right turn and over the takeoff end of the runway at circuit height. Turn right into the downwind leg and carry out the checks etc and prepare for the base turn.
Would give you a good chance to get a visual on who is in the circuit, and you can get a better idea of where in the pattern you will join them when you turn downwind.
Straight in`s are fine, but executing an accurate overhead join is a much more pleasing experience, a nice mix of high workload and airmanship.
Regards,
Speedy
Would give you a good chance to get a visual on who is in the circuit, and you can get a better idea of where in the pattern you will join them when you turn downwind.
Straight in`s are fine, but executing an accurate overhead join is a much more pleasing experience, a nice mix of high workload and airmanship.
Regards,
Speedy
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida,Essex, or Shoreham.
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with Speedy.
The overhead join gives you an excellent opportunity to build up a picture of the circuit activity - provided obviously that itdoes not conflict with the parachute activity.
I stand to be shot down, but unless ATC instuct it, I feel that staight in approaches are a bad idea unless the circuit is deserted/very quiet. I've been badly cut up on several occasions by people doing this!
Just my humble opinion.
Iain
The overhead join gives you an excellent opportunity to build up a picture of the circuit activity - provided obviously that itdoes not conflict with the parachute activity.
I stand to be shot down, but unless ATC instuct it, I feel that staight in approaches are a bad idea unless the circuit is deserted/very quiet. I've been badly cut up on several occasions by people doing this!
Just my humble opinion.
Iain
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Witnesham, Suffolk
Age: 80
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If parachuting is happening, then overhead joins aren't the best idea. You'd probably get shouted at for even suggesting it.
I'd probably do the long one - West abeam the field to descend deadside, crosswind to the East and to right downwind, base and final.
Might be a good idea to ask if there are any preferred approaches. A couple of places have said to me in similar circumstances "We'd prefer you to join straight in if you're happy with that."
I'd probably do the long one - West abeam the field to descend deadside, crosswind to the East and to right downwind, base and final.
Might be a good idea to ask if there are any preferred approaches. A couple of places have said to me in similar circumstances "We'd prefer you to join straight in if you're happy with that."
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with Keef, I wouldn't want to be buzzing around the overhead if there is parachute activity. Straight in approaches are easiest from a local nav perspective but can make it hard to judge the approach with regard to height, plus there is the question as to who has right of way - when exactly are you in finals?
If no overhead join is possible then a compomise of a join at the top of the downwind leg might work (although you'd have to maneouvre around the ATZ a bit) or perhaps a base-leg join.
The best option is to give the airfield a call before you depart to get a briefing and discuss the options.
Happy flying!
If no overhead join is possible then a compomise of a join at the top of the downwind leg might work (although you'd have to maneouvre around the ATZ a bit) or perhaps a base-leg join.
The best option is to give the airfield a call before you depart to get a briefing and discuss the options.
Happy flying!
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Paros, Greece
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about how they do it in the States? 45 degree join into downwind (from the East). Done this a couple of times (over there) and it gives you chance to see anybody on crosswind or early downwind and to orbit clear of the circuit if it's busy. Might confuse people over here who aren't expecting it though.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Bristol and Forest of Dean
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A couple of points here:
I would not think about visiting a known parachute drop zone without telephoning in advance to check if they are active. Most para/mixed use sites are PPR for this very reason...
There is nothing wrong with straight in approaches in the right circumstances. I would listen in on the A/G frequency for a while and try to build a picture of activity before making my decision based on situational awareness. Then call'em up and listen to what the A/G operator says, but ultimately it’s your decision.
If you decide on a 'straight in' clearly announce your intentions and make regular updates including perhaps:
'G-xxxx 4miles south, R/W 36 for a straight in approach'
'G-xxxx 2mile final R/W 36'
After passing 800ft agl call final again.
The thing to keep in mind is the other circuit traffic will be looking at the airfield (i.e. not in your direction) and to make matters worse a low wing AC turning from base to final will have their wing block any view they might have of you anyway, so keep a good lookout and 'see and avoid'
If the straight in were not on, I would join overhead. If that was not on... I'd probably go out to the West and join crosswind.
I don't like the idea of joining base as, unless you went way out to the east before turning in you run a risk of meeting someone in the circuit coming the other way! People often don’t look out to see if anyone has joined on base before turning downwind to base, so it can be just as fraught as a straight in.
All IMHO
Hope this helps
Kingy
I would not think about visiting a known parachute drop zone without telephoning in advance to check if they are active. Most para/mixed use sites are PPR for this very reason...
There is nothing wrong with straight in approaches in the right circumstances. I would listen in on the A/G frequency for a while and try to build a picture of activity before making my decision based on situational awareness. Then call'em up and listen to what the A/G operator says, but ultimately it’s your decision.
If you decide on a 'straight in' clearly announce your intentions and make regular updates including perhaps:
'G-xxxx 4miles south, R/W 36 for a straight in approach'
'G-xxxx 2mile final R/W 36'
After passing 800ft agl call final again.
The thing to keep in mind is the other circuit traffic will be looking at the airfield (i.e. not in your direction) and to make matters worse a low wing AC turning from base to final will have their wing block any view they might have of you anyway, so keep a good lookout and 'see and avoid'
If the straight in were not on, I would join overhead. If that was not on... I'd probably go out to the West and join crosswind.
I don't like the idea of joining base as, unless you went way out to the east before turning in you run a risk of meeting someone in the circuit coming the other way! People often don’t look out to see if anyone has joined on base before turning downwind to base, so it can be just as fraught as a straight in.
All IMHO
Hope this helps
Kingy
Last edited by Kingy; 12th Jan 2003 at 01:19.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Witnesham, Suffolk
Age: 80
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I might have misunderstood the CAA (has been known), but isn't the "law" in the UK that you can ONLY make turns in the circuit direction?
Isn't that why we can't make "45 degree" joins like the US system does?
I must admit, joining from the south for runway 36, and flying once round the field, does seem OTT when things are quiet. On a busy day, there's no option.
I'm spoiled. My home field has full ATC, and it's usually baseleg or straight-in. But you should see the landing fees we pay...
Isn't that why we can't make "45 degree" joins like the US system does?
I must admit, joining from the south for runway 36, and flying once round the field, does seem OTT when things are quiet. On a busy day, there's no option.
I'm spoiled. My home field has full ATC, and it's usually baseleg or straight-in. But you should see the landing fees we pay...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
whats wrong with..........
G-**** is a PA28 inbound from ****, 5 miles south of you at 2500 ft requesting circuit joining instructions and QFE....
They'll soon tell you where they want you
G-**** is a PA28 inbound from ****, 5 miles south of you at 2500 ft requesting circuit joining instructions and QFE....
They'll soon tell you where they want you
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Bristol and Forest of Dean
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Monocock
We are talking an air/ground service here. They cannot give instructions. They can give airfield information, known traffic.. and that’s about it!
What generally happens is everyone announces his or her intentions nominally to 'XXXX Radio' but really it is for the benefit of anyone else on frequency.
I’m sure you knew that anyway...
Kingy
We are talking an air/ground service here. They cannot give instructions. They can give airfield information, known traffic.. and that’s about it!
What generally happens is everyone announces his or her intentions nominally to 'XXXX Radio' but really it is for the benefit of anyone else on frequency.
I’m sure you knew that anyway...
Kingy
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If there was no preferred join, I'd definitely go for a base join in this case - keeps you out of the way of the parachutes, but also gives you plenty of time to observe the traffic in the circuit, and the flexibility to fit in with that traffic, which the straight-in doesn't.
Keef, you are correct, the 45-degree join is not legal. As far as I'm aware, it's not legal in the US either, but everyone seems to ignore that
However, that aside, the easiest way to do a 45-degree join from this direction would be to fly overhead the airfield above circuit height, then fly outbound, descend to circuit height while making a 180-degree turn onto the 45. That would defeat the object a little bit, since you'd be flying directly overhead the airfield, presumably where the parachutes are dropping, which is what you're trying to avoid to start with! The other alternative would be to remain well to the east of the field, outside of the ATZ and well outside the circuit, and then turn onto the 45... but this takes you several miles from the field, at fairly low level, and might be tricky to navigate if you're not familiar with the area, depending on how easy the field is to see. I think I still prefer the base join.
FFF
--------------
Edit to say to Kingy - yes, you're right, A/G can't give you instructions. But there's no harm asking them what they'd prefer, and then following their "advice" once you're sure it's safe to do so.
Keef, you are correct, the 45-degree join is not legal. As far as I'm aware, it's not legal in the US either, but everyone seems to ignore that
However, that aside, the easiest way to do a 45-degree join from this direction would be to fly overhead the airfield above circuit height, then fly outbound, descend to circuit height while making a 180-degree turn onto the 45. That would defeat the object a little bit, since you'd be flying directly overhead the airfield, presumably where the parachutes are dropping, which is what you're trying to avoid to start with! The other alternative would be to remain well to the east of the field, outside of the ATZ and well outside the circuit, and then turn onto the 45... but this takes you several miles from the field, at fairly low level, and might be tricky to navigate if you're not familiar with the area, depending on how easy the field is to see. I think I still prefer the base join.FFF
--------------
Edit to say to Kingy - yes, you're right, A/G can't give you instructions. But there's no harm asking them what they'd prefer, and then following their "advice" once you're sure it's safe to do so.
There is a rule at airshows that prohibits all engine,props and rotors turning during a para-drop, until everyone of the paras is on the ground and `chutes secure.This is for a very good reason - I have seen a para, get off-course and get blown/sucked into a prop about 30 yrs ago.and it was a Mustang prop too. Fortunately the pilot saw what was about to happen and shut-down with no serious injuries .
I would suggest that one should stay well clear of the circuit ,and wait to be cleared in by the DZcontroller/Fiso/ somebody who is responsible/ as its going to be his neck in the noose and yours if you don`t. The a/f in question must have specific contol procedures in place for such operations.If not-stay away !!
I would suggest that one should stay well clear of the circuit ,and wait to be cleared in by the DZcontroller/Fiso/ somebody who is responsible/ as its going to be his neck in the noose and yours if you don`t. The a/f in question must have specific contol procedures in place for such operations.If not-stay away !!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, England
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can't be 'cleared in' by A/G (or FIS for that matter). Ring in advance and get the procedures, but without ATC it's the pilot (i.e. you) that is responsible. End of story.
BTW I agree with FFF - base join (with appropriate calls) keeps you away from the airfield as long as possible, but with ample opportunity to listen and observe.
BTW I agree with FFF - base join (with appropriate calls) keeps you away from the airfield as long as possible, but with ample opportunity to listen and observe.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Bristol and Forest of Dean
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't want to cause trouble chaps, but I just dont agree with joining on base in this case.
1. This will involve at least one turn inside the ATZ the opposite direction to the curcuit traffic - basic bad airmanship.
2. What if a wide curcuit was being flown (for whatever reason) You may be positioning yourself from the south for a base join only to find yourself staring at someone head on late downwind in a massive curcuit. Now, I don't agree with 'airliner' curcuits in a PA 28... but just imagine the air accident report - YOU would be in the wrong.
Straight in, overhead or crosswind join for me.
Whats wrong with 'going the long way round' ?
respectfully
Kingy
1. This will involve at least one turn inside the ATZ the opposite direction to the curcuit traffic - basic bad airmanship.
2. What if a wide curcuit was being flown (for whatever reason) You may be positioning yourself from the south for a base join only to find yourself staring at someone head on late downwind in a massive curcuit. Now, I don't agree with 'airliner' curcuits in a PA 28... but just imagine the air accident report - YOU would be in the wrong.
Straight in, overhead or crosswind join for me.
Whats wrong with 'going the long way round' ?
respectfully
Kingy
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Overhead while they are dropping is not clever – yes I have dropped close to dickheads flying over the a/f. All the crap about what is legal for A/G is odd – do you think he will lie to you?
A parachutist may exit the aircraft some distance from the airfield if it’s windy, so you need to know wind strength and direction and how it affects the parachute. If you don’t know that, find out. Phone or radio will do. If you can't be bothered to find out stay at home and make it safer for everyone else.
I can understand the concern if you can't raise anyone on the radio (most para aircraft have radio you know!) - then long and low finals will ensure you only meet people under canopy - where you may see them - rather than 120 mph downwards.
Gerry
A parachutist may exit the aircraft some distance from the airfield if it’s windy, so you need to know wind strength and direction and how it affects the parachute. If you don’t know that, find out. Phone or radio will do. If you can't be bothered to find out stay at home and make it safer for everyone else.
I can understand the concern if you can't raise anyone on the radio (most para aircraft have radio you know!) - then long and low finals will ensure you only meet people under canopy - where you may see them - rather than 120 mph downwards.
Gerry
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Bristol and Forest of Dean
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gerry
Steady on mate, we've pretty much all said that you should phone first before setting out to check activity and local procedures.
For example, there would be nothing wrong with joining overhead if both jump plane and parachutists were on the ground at the time, only a reckless fool would consider joining overhead if a jump was taking place. Like many things in aviation, it's all about good judgement based on good information.
No one suggested the A/G guy would lie. Merely, that the ultimate responsibility lies with the pilot. (which it does)
To quote your post:
'yes I have dropped close to dickheads flying over the a/f'
Please explain this as it reads like you actively dropped when you knew an aircraft was in the overhead - surely not..?
Kingy
Steady on mate, we've pretty much all said that you should phone first before setting out to check activity and local procedures.
For example, there would be nothing wrong with joining overhead if both jump plane and parachutists were on the ground at the time, only a reckless fool would consider joining overhead if a jump was taking place. Like many things in aviation, it's all about good judgement based on good information.
No one suggested the A/G guy would lie. Merely, that the ultimate responsibility lies with the pilot. (which it does)
To quote your post:
'yes I have dropped close to dickheads flying over the a/f'
Please explain this as it reads like you actively dropped when you knew an aircraft was in the overhead - surely not..?
Kingy
