View Poll Results: IMC: Worth the time and money?
Yes - Its worthwhile getting one
150
92.59%
No - I dont see the point in it
4
2.47%
Only if you have the time and money
8
4.94%
Voters: 162. This poll is closed
The IMC
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
From: Witnesham, Suffolk
Tasty old chestnut, this one!
The IMC is an excellent rating, IF...
1. The instruction is done properly, covering the syllabus and ensuring the pilot learningIMC flight really does do so. I've heard horrible rumours about lousy instruction (not come across any, myself).
2. All the relevant procedures are taught (not just "here's how the local NDB procedure works if you get caught out").
3. The pilot is in current IFR practice when using it.
Number 3 is the killer - how many folks renew their IMC rating every two years, and don't use it between times? That's the way to get killed.
I practice IFR flight (with a safety pilot) just about every time I fly; I do the various bits necessary to keep my FAA IR current. I am perfectly happy to take off into an overcast, as long as I know the cloudbase at my destination (and alternate) is well above my minima.
But I still prefer to be flying with another pilot when in IMC - things can get very busy in the airspace round here.
The IMC is an excellent rating, IF...
1. The instruction is done properly, covering the syllabus and ensuring the pilot learningIMC flight really does do so. I've heard horrible rumours about lousy instruction (not come across any, myself).
2. All the relevant procedures are taught (not just "here's how the local NDB procedure works if you get caught out").
3. The pilot is in current IFR practice when using it.
Number 3 is the killer - how many folks renew their IMC rating every two years, and don't use it between times? That's the way to get killed.
I practice IFR flight (with a safety pilot) just about every time I fly; I do the various bits necessary to keep my FAA IR current. I am perfectly happy to take off into an overcast, as long as I know the cloudbase at my destination (and alternate) is well above my minima.
But I still prefer to be flying with another pilot when in IMC - things can get very busy in the airspace round here.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: Reading, Berkshire
There's no doubt that the IMC is an excellent rating, for all the reasons already given in this thread. The issue is not whether it's good to get the IMC, but how you act once you've got it. In my experience, the skills you learn for the IMC are much more 'degradable' (I can't think of a better word) than most of those for the initial PPL. Rusty skills with an IMC are far more dangerous, so the holder of the IMC must take the approach that it is not a blanket entitlement to fly in IMC.
I find I use the NAV skills whether in IMC or VMC, so those are pretty well-honed (always learning though). I make sure that I fly in basic IMC conditions often enough to keep competent at the scan and the workload. The one thing I haven't been able to keep up are instrument landings...so I just won't do one and avoid getting into the position of having to, until I get refresher training.
Get the IMC, but it's up to you to maintain competency, keep the skills fresh and be safe.
I find I use the NAV skills whether in IMC or VMC, so those are pretty well-honed (always learning though). I make sure that I fly in basic IMC conditions often enough to keep competent at the scan and the workload. The one thing I haven't been able to keep up are instrument landings...so I just won't do one and avoid getting into the position of having to, until I get refresher training.
Get the IMC, but it's up to you to maintain competency, keep the skills fresh and be safe.
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 178
From: UK
TERMINOLOGY
Could I please beg for some correct terminology chaps.
I have flown microlights IFR, quite safely and legally. It is IMC I can't do.
Please bear in mind when discussing a subject like this that IFR and IMC are not the same thing, neither are VFR and VMC.
G
I have flown microlights IFR, quite safely and legally. It is IMC I can't do.
Please bear in mind when discussing a subject like this that IFR and IMC are not the same thing, neither are VFR and VMC.
G
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: South Yorkshire, UK
Recently got an IMC rating and really enjoyed the training. That's not to say that there weren't times when I felt my head was about to explode with the workload and I had no idea where I was, where I was going or what I was supposed to be doing. But it eventually came together.
Since then I've done a bit of practice IMC (with safety pilot) in marginal VMC but not yet used it in anger. But my flying has improved no end - I hold altitude, speed and heading so much better than before and that has to make for better and safer flying.
I'd intended to do the rating for a while, but it was after a particularly unpleasant experience with the weather coming down in the Vale of York, just on the border of the North York Moors that I resolved to get the rating. We got away with it that time by having a co-pilot who'd done the IMC course (but not yet taken the test) and the next time might not have done. I'm now confident that in similar circumstances (subject to keeping current) I'll stand a good chance of flying another day.
So far as FS2002 is concerned, whilst it doesn't feel anything like real blind flying, I found it a great help in the course. You can reduce the workload on instrument approaches significantly by being familiar with the profile, and FS enables you to fly your local instrument approaches as often as you like until familiar with them - a great help when you do the real thing. Don't try to fly real IMC purely on the back of FS though!
Since then I've done a bit of practice IMC (with safety pilot) in marginal VMC but not yet used it in anger. But my flying has improved no end - I hold altitude, speed and heading so much better than before and that has to make for better and safer flying.
I'd intended to do the rating for a while, but it was after a particularly unpleasant experience with the weather coming down in the Vale of York, just on the border of the North York Moors that I resolved to get the rating. We got away with it that time by having a co-pilot who'd done the IMC course (but not yet taken the test) and the next time might not have done. I'm now confident that in similar circumstances (subject to keeping current) I'll stand a good chance of flying another day.
So far as FS2002 is concerned, whilst it doesn't feel anything like real blind flying, I found it a great help in the course. You can reduce the workload on instrument approaches significantly by being familiar with the profile, and FS enables you to fly your local instrument approaches as often as you like until familiar with them - a great help when you do the real thing. Don't try to fly real IMC purely on the back of FS though!
Title? What title?
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
From: In the dog house
I think the IMC is a good rating to have and as such have worked hard to keep it. For one thing, the accuracy demanded by my instructor/examiner is much higher than for a basic VMC PPL and this has benefited all aspects of my flying.
In the 9 years that I have had my IMC, I have used it as P1 4 or 5 times because I regard it as a 'get you home rating' rather than and excuse to get up into the cloud. I do however practice with an instructor every 4 or 5 months because I know that without practice, the standards will fall.
So from me, a big thumbs up for the IMC
In the 9 years that I have had my IMC, I have used it as P1 4 or 5 times because I regard it as a 'get you home rating' rather than and excuse to get up into the cloud. I do however practice with an instructor every 4 or 5 months because I know that without practice, the standards will fall.
So from me, a big thumbs up for the IMC
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
From: UK
Lots of very good points, but what on earth is the FM Immunity puzzle ?
Next to the glass on the 757 and 767 I fly is a warning that the ILS may not be FM Immune. I remember some years ago a discussion in 'Pilot' about it - large costs, massive replacement of avionics for light a/c pilots etc etc...
I'm not up to speed with the current legislation - just wondered if I can fly with my non-immune kit, why can't you guys ?!
Next to the glass on the 757 and 767 I fly is a warning that the ILS may not be FM Immune. I remember some years ago a discussion in 'Pilot' about it - large costs, massive replacement of avionics for light a/c pilots etc etc...
I'm not up to speed with the current legislation - just wondered if I can fly with my non-immune kit, why can't you guys ?!
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 0
From: TL487591
El,
Assuming for a moment that your aircraft is G-reg passenger transport, then you are not permitted to fly instrument approaches in controlled airspace using kit that is not FM immune. Off the top of my head, I can think of relatively few reasons for your placard.
a) The placard is out of date
b) The placard is warning you that ILS signals are no longer protected from FM broadcast stations
c) errr...
d) Your twin-FMS guidance is regarded as being sufficiently accurate to replace the localiser as the primary source of LNAV data.
Scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
Assuming for a moment that your aircraft is G-reg passenger transport, then you are not permitted to fly instrument approaches in controlled airspace using kit that is not FM immune. Off the top of my head, I can think of relatively few reasons for your placard.
a) The placard is out of date
b) The placard is warning you that ILS signals are no longer protected from FM broadcast stations
c) errr...
d) Your twin-FMS guidance is regarded as being sufficiently accurate to replace the localiser as the primary source of LNAV data.
Scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Seem to be two strands of thought here....
1 - should PPLs practice basic instrument flying skills regularly to get out trouble when necessary
2 - is the IMC rating a good rating for a PPL to hold
I'd say that number 1 is pretty much a no brainer. Yes.
Remember that (a minimum amount of) instrument appreciation is taught on the PPL for this reason. There is nothing to stop you adding to this by receiving further instruction and keeping reasonably current on basic manouevres such as a 180 to get out of IMC into VMC. As others have said, its easy to be caught out - at what stage does heavy haze become IMC and how gradual is the transition?
It's easy to fly into light cloud that was difficult to see through the haze, flying into the sun - it all looks a bit milky! If you panic due to lack of familiarity with the panel, things will become dangerous and luck will be a major factor in whether you live to tell the tale.
Number 2 must come down to a personal decision. I don't hold an IMC rating (although I have a night rating) because I have no intention of flying in marginal VMC. If something develops quickly, I'll divert and get the train home.
Now that is easy for me as (a) I have a share in an under utilised aeroplane - so no 'get hom itis' pressure, (b) I have a working lifestyle that allows me some flexibility and (c) I don't wish to push the envelope in this direction as my flying is purely recreational and what I can do now is more than enough to give me a lot of pleasure.
Of course everyone will have their own view/choice and that's exactly as it should be.
1 - should PPLs practice basic instrument flying skills regularly to get out trouble when necessary
2 - is the IMC rating a good rating for a PPL to hold
I'd say that number 1 is pretty much a no brainer. Yes.
Remember that (a minimum amount of) instrument appreciation is taught on the PPL for this reason. There is nothing to stop you adding to this by receiving further instruction and keeping reasonably current on basic manouevres such as a 180 to get out of IMC into VMC. As others have said, its easy to be caught out - at what stage does heavy haze become IMC and how gradual is the transition?
It's easy to fly into light cloud that was difficult to see through the haze, flying into the sun - it all looks a bit milky! If you panic due to lack of familiarity with the panel, things will become dangerous and luck will be a major factor in whether you live to tell the tale.
Number 2 must come down to a personal decision. I don't hold an IMC rating (although I have a night rating) because I have no intention of flying in marginal VMC. If something develops quickly, I'll divert and get the train home.
Now that is easy for me as (a) I have a share in an under utilised aeroplane - so no 'get hom itis' pressure, (b) I have a working lifestyle that allows me some flexibility and (c) I don't wish to push the envelope in this direction as my flying is purely recreational and what I can do now is more than enough to give me a lot of pleasure.
Of course everyone will have their own view/choice and that's exactly as it should be.
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: Kent
I get my plates from the NATS website -
http://www.ais.org.uk
It's still a bit of a hunt (these Govt websites are poorly designed IMHO). You get there by clicking:
Publications
UK AIP
The UK AIP Package
UK AIP - UK AIP - UK AIP Areodrome Data - Aerodromes Specific
You need to register.
http://www.ais.org.uk
It's still a bit of a hunt (these Govt websites are poorly designed IMHO). You get there by clicking:
Publications
UK AIP
The UK AIP Package
UK AIP - UK AIP - UK AIP Areodrome Data - Aerodromes Specific
You need to register.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
Likes: 9
From: Blighty
Back to the original topic, I tell my students that if the PPL is the 'O Level' (GCSE to you young chaps) of flying, the IMC rating is the 'A level' and that they should consider doing it in the not too distant future. My club operates from an airfield in Class D airspace with radar and instrument approaches various, so the benefits of the IMC rating are obvious.
