do you like it hard or soft.........
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I seem to remember a technique where you jumped the flaps, that is at a speed just below normal take off you dropped two stages of flap and hauled the airplane off the ground, thus shortening the ground drag of a grass strip.
<<Bluskis, I asked the same question of my instructor once and when she'd recovered from the shock explained:
What if when you pull the handle nothing happens?
Or the flaps come down asymetrically?
Or you miss the level and have to look down inside the a/c
Or you accidently pull the gear retract (in a retractable, obviously)>>
Or what if there's a giant tsunami and we all get drowned?
<<PS. Or what if you're in a C150 - the flaps would just be extended by the time you turned downwind >>
In the distant past I have done it in a 172, when you select the flaps down and then count three. I somehow doubt it would work in a 150. Choose the aircraft carefully.
QDM
Last edited by QDMQDMQDM; 18th Oct 2002 at 22:06.
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Flap Settings for Grass Touch & Goes?
What is being taught, for T & Gs on grass, these days?
Or does it depend on the aircraft type?
My personal preference, on the assumption that I am using full flap, on the approach is:-
PA28s, with manual flaps of the "handbrake" variety, is quickly drop the flap lever from 3/3 to 1/3, at touch down.
AA5B & GA7, all with reasonably speedy electric flaps, is select flaps up, at touch down. This probably means that the last bit of the flap, is still running up as the A/c gets airbourne again.
Given the choice, I think I prefer to gain speed without the drag, whilst sacrificing the bit of lift gained from the flaps.
Or does it depend on the aircraft type?
My personal preference, on the assumption that I am using full flap, on the approach is:-
PA28s, with manual flaps of the "handbrake" variety, is quickly drop the flap lever from 3/3 to 1/3, at touch down.
AA5B & GA7, all with reasonably speedy electric flaps, is select flaps up, at touch down. This probably means that the last bit of the flap, is still running up as the A/c gets airbourne again.
Given the choice, I think I prefer to gain speed without the drag, whilst sacrificing the bit of lift gained from the flaps.
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distaff, I am taught not to remove any flaps until immediatley after becoming airbourne again. This is in a Pa28 with the 'handbrake' flaps you talk about.
I think the idea is to avoid, (a) the distraction of reaching for the lever, (b) avoid taking too much flaps off, and (c) just in case you pull the gear retract by mistake in a more complex type.
The procedure is to go from full flap to 20 degrees (2/3) as soon as airbourne as this last stage is nearly all drag. You can actually feel the speed build as you do so, without any noticable loss of lift.
I must admit though, that I regularly put that third stage in whilst still on the ground (but only when there's no instructor watching).
I think the idea is to avoid, (a) the distraction of reaching for the lever, (b) avoid taking too much flaps off, and (c) just in case you pull the gear retract by mistake in a more complex type.
The procedure is to go from full flap to 20 degrees (2/3) as soon as airbourne as this last stage is nearly all drag. You can actually feel the speed build as you do so, without any noticable loss of lift.
I must admit though, that I regularly put that third stage in whilst still on the ground (but only when there's no instructor watching).
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re. touch and go....
This is something that I thought everyone would do basicly the same, seeing as how we all spent so much time doing touch&gos when training...
I have always been taught :
1. Flare & Touchdown, center of runway, keep straight... Im Happy..
2. Carb heat cold, Flaps up to takeoff setting, check still straight...
3. Gradually re-apply power, keep straight...
4. Check instruments & when at rotate airspeed off you go again...
I am somewhat surprised to hear that some are being taught to get back in the air with full flap, this seems dangerous... but then maybe I am mis-understanding what you are saying.
Regards, SD.
I have always been taught :
1. Flare & Touchdown, center of runway, keep straight... Im Happy..
2. Carb heat cold, Flaps up to takeoff setting, check still straight...
3. Gradually re-apply power, keep straight...
4. Check instruments & when at rotate airspeed off you go again...
I am somewhat surprised to hear that some are being taught to get back in the air with full flap, this seems dangerous... but then maybe I am mis-understanding what you are saying.
Regards, SD.
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skydriller My question did relate specifically to GRASS runways, as I was interested to see if pilots were being taught a different technique, compared to that used for T&Gs off tarmac.
But, by the way, as regards carb heat, I was taught to put it back to COLD, at about 400ft on finals, so that the engine is ready to give full power, in the event of a late go-around.
So, it looks as if we were (or are) not all taught the same.
But, by the way, as regards carb heat, I was taught to put it back to COLD, at about 400ft on finals, so that the engine is ready to give full power, in the event of a late go-around.
So, it looks as if we were (or are) not all taught the same.
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Distaff....
Learnt to fly on a hard surface in the UK, Have since moved to France and started flying Robins from a grass strip here, 900m long. The only thing that I had pointed out by my instructor is to really make sure that weight is off the nosewheel and ensure min. stage flap is always used for takeoff, not nessecary for long hard surfaces though...
BTW interesting point about the Carb heat.
Regards, SD
Learnt to fly on a hard surface in the UK, Have since moved to France and started flying Robins from a grass strip here, 900m long. The only thing that I had pointed out by my instructor is to really make sure that weight is off the nosewheel and ensure min. stage flap is always used for takeoff, not nessecary for long hard surfaces though...
BTW interesting point about the Carb heat.
Regards, SD
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About the carb heat - I was also taught to turn it off before touchdown - perhaps at 200 ft. Last thing you need on the roll out before a go around is an extra lever to remember to move.
The problem is, "about 200ft" can be 30 or 40 seconds before power is re-applied with the engine at idle (or nearly), plenty of time for ice to build up I would have thought. I can see the point in teaching students to do things really early, but I tend to delay a bit and go to cold just a few seconds before crossing the fence (or forget completley of course
)
I suppose the thing with the flaps depends on the aircraft really - with plenty of power, leave the flaps down. If marginal, get them at least partially up ASAP. One-up in a pa28-161, you can still get 600fpm climb with full flaps (I know, 'cos I sometimes forget to retract at all
)
The problem is, "about 200ft" can be 30 or 40 seconds before power is re-applied with the engine at idle (or nearly), plenty of time for ice to build up I would have thought. I can see the point in teaching students to do things really early, but I tend to delay a bit and go to cold just a few seconds before crossing the fence (or forget completley of course
)I suppose the thing with the flaps depends on the aircraft really - with plenty of power, leave the flaps down. If marginal, get them at least partially up ASAP. One-up in a pa28-161, you can still get 600fpm climb with full flaps (I know, 'cos I sometimes forget to retract at all
)
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The other reason to select carb heat COLD on the approach is that with carb heat HOT the air reaching the carburettor is unfiltered, so all kinds of crap can, theoretically get in, especially on grass / gravel / dirt strips. I still remember only 50% of the time, though.
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'Carb heat cold' is still one of my pre takeoff checks, even though I don't have carb heat, but it has disapeared from my downwind/approach checks.
However I am pretty sure it used to be cold for the approach, as was previously said to be able to expedite a full power missed approach .
Carb icing would any way have been checked for at some stage in the circuit or flight and any indication would probably nullify approaching with it cold.
Do Continental engines differ from Lycoming on the point of carb heat application?
However I am pretty sure it used to be cold for the approach, as was previously said to be able to expedite a full power missed approach .
Carb icing would any way have been checked for at some stage in the circuit or flight and any indication would probably nullify approaching with it cold.
Do Continental engines differ from Lycoming on the point of carb heat application?
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blueskis In my experience, not only does use & effects of carb heat vary with different makes of engine, it varies with all the Lycomings in different types, in the types that I fly.
On the PA28-181 & PA28R-201(Wot Rubbish!! its fuel injected), I select carb heat on base leg & back to cold on finals, at about 200/300 ft.
The AA5B/AG5Bs seem to hate carb heat, & sound very huffy (or whatever the techie term is!) after more than a few minutes on hot, so I usually select cold before 400 ft.
The GA7s very, very rarely seem to get carb icing, & I was taught not to select carb icing on base/final at all. But, as with most twins, you tend to keep more power on base & finals, than with some singles.
Flap settings for T & Gs on grass:-
It is interesting the number of different techniques that have now been aired on this thread.
I have never tried a T & G on grass, (or on short tarmac runways)leaving more than 1/3 on the PA28s, or nil on those with the electric flaps. Except, of course, occasionally when training, when I forgot to retract any flap at all!
I am still chewing over the relative merits of flap settings for grass, in terms of lift & airspeed, v drag. I was taught that the aim was to get the aircraft airbourne in as short as possible run, then hold it in ground effect to build up speed.
I don't do really short grass runways (<500m) 'cos they are much too scary.
For those of you who do use short grass runways, what flap setting & other techniques do YOU use?
Or, I suppose you never do T & Gs, 'cos you do perfect landings at every first attempt!
(Edited for brain failure, before someone else spots it )
On the PA28-181 & PA28R-201(Wot Rubbish!! its fuel injected), I select carb heat on base leg & back to cold on finals, at about 200/300 ft.
The AA5B/AG5Bs seem to hate carb heat, & sound very huffy (or whatever the techie term is!) after more than a few minutes on hot, so I usually select cold before 400 ft.
The GA7s very, very rarely seem to get carb icing, & I was taught not to select carb icing on base/final at all. But, as with most twins, you tend to keep more power on base & finals, than with some singles.
Flap settings for T & Gs on grass:-
It is interesting the number of different techniques that have now been aired on this thread.
I have never tried a T & G on grass, (or on short tarmac runways)leaving more than 1/3 on the PA28s, or nil on those with the electric flaps. Except, of course, occasionally when training, when I forgot to retract any flap at all!
I am still chewing over the relative merits of flap settings for grass, in terms of lift & airspeed, v drag. I was taught that the aim was to get the aircraft airbourne in as short as possible run, then hold it in ground effect to build up speed.
I don't do really short grass runways (<500m) 'cos they are much too scary.
For those of you who do use short grass runways, what flap setting & other techniques do YOU use?
Or, I suppose you never do T & Gs, 'cos you do perfect landings at every first attempt!
(Edited for brain failure, before someone else spots it
)
Last edited by distaff_beancounter; 21st Oct 2002 at 07:33.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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For what it's worth, I was taught one stage of flaps for take-off from hard grass in a PA28, although I can't find reference to that anywhere in the POH. However, standard short/soft field technique in the POH is 2 stages, so I can't see that 1 stage could be considered dangerous. On muddy grass (e.g. White Waltham in the winter) I use the POH soft-field technique. On a touch+go, I retract the flaps to one stage (or zero on a hard runway) after landing.
Taking off with full flaps in most types seems dangerous - it will definitely extend your take-off run compared to whatever the normal short-field technique is (usually one stage below full flaps), and there are no published figures to give you any idea how long the take-off run will be. Having said that, if this is what you've been doing since you started in the circuit, it may be more dangerous to change your habits now, especially without an instructor sat next to you...
As for the original question, in a tricycle I prefer hard runways every time. Grass is more bumpy, but not really any harder - just different. In most tail-draggers, I prefer grass every time. I tend not to look at the ASI during take-off in a tail-dragger, I rely on the responsiveness and feel of the controls to tell me when the aeroplane's ready to take-off so I can keep my head out of the cockpit. Being bounced around a bit on the grass provides a lot more clues as to what's going on. And during landing, if you've got even the slightest amount of drift or yaw when landing a tail-dragger on a hard runway, you'll know about it, and you'd better be quick on the rudders! The Europa isn't a normal tail-dragger, though - and although I still love landing it on grass, I'd rather take off from a hard runway, given the choice - the technique is much more difficult, but it's also more forgiving. (But it's not often we have the choice!)
FFF
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Taking off with full flaps in most types seems dangerous - it will definitely extend your take-off run compared to whatever the normal short-field technique is (usually one stage below full flaps), and there are no published figures to give you any idea how long the take-off run will be. Having said that, if this is what you've been doing since you started in the circuit, it may be more dangerous to change your habits now, especially without an instructor sat next to you...
As for the original question, in a tricycle I prefer hard runways every time. Grass is more bumpy, but not really any harder - just different. In most tail-draggers, I prefer grass every time. I tend not to look at the ASI during take-off in a tail-dragger, I rely on the responsiveness and feel of the controls to tell me when the aeroplane's ready to take-off so I can keep my head out of the cockpit. Being bounced around a bit on the grass provides a lot more clues as to what's going on. And during landing, if you've got even the slightest amount of drift or yaw when landing a tail-dragger on a hard runway, you'll know about it, and you'd better be quick on the rudders! The Europa isn't a normal tail-dragger, though - and although I still love landing it on grass, I'd rather take off from a hard runway, given the choice - the technique is much more difficult, but it's also more forgiving. (But it's not often we have the choice!)
FFF
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Touch and Go's / Carb Heat on Approach
The Continental engine on the C150 is very prone to icing, so I teach my students to leave Carb Heat Hot all the way down the approach to touchdown. The engine can ice up amazingly quickly, a matter of a few seconds and the last thing you want to be doing at 200 ft with not enough power to make the runway is having to re-apply carb heat and hope!
I accept the issues of having to go-around with less power and the fact that dirt and grit can damage the engine if you're landing on a bumpy or dusty strip somewhere, however I feel that in most cases a go-Around can be anticipated and simulataneously applying full throttle and carb heat cold in a C150 is very simple.
In the event of having to go around at the last second the C150 will happily climb awaywith carb heat hot.. and if you have been taught to always simultaneously apply carb heat cold as you apply full throttle you will have no problems with performance or the possibilty of engine failure due to a sudden rich cut.
Lastly I feel that the chances of engine icing and subsequent failure on approach are much greater and the risks therefore higher than that of a last second go around with reduced power.
For touch and Go's I teach
Flaps Up
Carb Heat Cold
Full Power
Of course, making sure you're keeping the aircraft straight and stable on the runway.
LP
I accept the issues of having to go-around with less power and the fact that dirt and grit can damage the engine if you're landing on a bumpy or dusty strip somewhere, however I feel that in most cases a go-Around can be anticipated and simulataneously applying full throttle and carb heat cold in a C150 is very simple.
In the event of having to go around at the last second the C150 will happily climb awaywith carb heat hot.. and if you have been taught to always simultaneously apply carb heat cold as you apply full throttle you will have no problems with performance or the possibilty of engine failure due to a sudden rich cut.
Lastly I feel that the chances of engine icing and subsequent failure on approach are much greater and the risks therefore higher than that of a last second go around with reduced power.
For touch and Go's I teach
Flaps Up
Carb Heat Cold
Full Power
Of course, making sure you're keeping the aircraft straight and stable on the runway.
LP
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For those of you who do use short grass runways, what flap setting & other techniques do YOU use?
Loony_pilot.
Thanks for the tip....until now I've been dumping the carb heat at 200ft agl. Won't be doing that anymore!!
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Looney Pilot - the first 20 hours or so of my training were in a C172 in Canada and I was taught to bring the carb heat out to Hot as part of downwind checks and leave it Hot for the rest of the circuit - it worked for me. For a go around, the carb heat and throttle are just see-sawed, aiming to have carb heat out whenever less than 2k rpm and vice versa.
When I returned to UK to finish off, it was a bit of a surprise when I was taught to only bring carb heat out on base leg as part of the approach config and to put it in again on finals. It was even more of a surprise when after flying for 5 years and doing a check ride for the first time at Fife, my instructor reminded me to do the CRAP checks on finals. This got a puzzled look from the left seat and he explained:
C Carb Heat Cold
R Runway Clear
A Approach Stabilised
P Permission to Land
I had honestly never been taught those (but it seems from other threads that most in the UK have been). I was also fooled by a TRPACER mnemonic!
When I returned to UK to finish off, it was a bit of a surprise when I was taught to only bring carb heat out on base leg as part of the approach config and to put it in again on finals. It was even more of a surprise when after flying for 5 years and doing a check ride for the first time at Fife, my instructor reminded me to do the CRAP checks on finals. This got a puzzled look from the left seat and he explained:
C Carb Heat Cold
R Runway Clear
A Approach Stabilised
P Permission to Land
I had honestly never been taught those (but it seems from other threads that most in the UK have been). I was also fooled by a TRPACER mnemonic!
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FFF said:-
The recommended short take-off procedure in the Koliber is to apply the brakes, apply full power release the brakes and lower the flaps fully . Lift the nosewheel off at 50kts and she will fly out in a remarkable short distance. Retaract the flaps gently in stages during the climb out. The technique works equally well on grass or tarmac.
distaff_beancounter
The AA5 & Koliber have the samecarb heat habits - it sounds as though its going to be sick when you apply carb heat.
The rev. counter is green arc-ed all the way from idle up to max power, so carb heat is not also necessary - just advisable. We also have a Carb Temp gauge to help.
Taking off with full flaps in most types seems dangerous - it will definitely extend your take-off run compared to whatever the normal short-field technique is
distaff_beancounter
The AA5 & Koliber have the samecarb heat habits - it sounds as though its going to be sick when you apply carb heat.
The rev. counter is green arc-ed all the way from idle up to max power, so carb heat is not also necessary - just advisable. We also have a Carb Temp gauge to help.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Thanks, who. I'm not familiar with the Kolilber, but I did say most types!
I once took off in a PA18 with full flaps, by mistake, and didn't even notice until I was off the ground - but then the flaps on the PA18 lower the stall speed by a full 2mph, so it's not surprising that they don't add too much drag. And the Europa monowheel always takes off with full flaps - but that's because the gear is directly linked to the flaps - if you lift the flaps, the gear comes up as well!
Since I made that post, I've flown a PA28 with an instructor (who I believe I mentioned on another unrelated thread) who likes me, when doing touch+goes, to take off before raising the flaps from the previous landing. I'm not happy with that technique, but I have to admit that, on a nice long runway, and when I've already got plenty of speed from the previous landing, the PA28 will quite happily get off the ground with full flap, even though it's not designed to. But then you wouldn't really expect anything nasty to happen in a PA28, would you?
FFF
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I once took off in a PA18 with full flaps, by mistake, and didn't even notice until I was off the ground - but then the flaps on the PA18 lower the stall speed by a full 2mph, so it's not surprising that they don't add too much drag. And the Europa monowheel always takes off with full flaps - but that's because the gear is directly linked to the flaps - if you lift the flaps, the gear comes up as well!
Since I made that post, I've flown a PA28 with an instructor (who I believe I mentioned on another unrelated thread) who likes me, when doing touch+goes, to take off before raising the flaps from the previous landing. I'm not happy with that technique, but I have to admit that, on a nice long runway, and when I've already got plenty of speed from the previous landing, the PA28 will quite happily get off the ground with full flap, even though it's not designed to. But then you wouldn't really expect anything nasty to happen in a PA28, would you?
FFF
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