Is This Possible (Shares + Training)
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Is This Possible (Shares + Training)
I was just wondering whether or not the following is possible.
Would i be able to get a share in an aircraft for say 2500 plus 40 pm and 50ph and then pay and instructor to get me through my PPL. I was thinking that, in the long run, this may be cheaper.
Could i do this or would i have to go through a proper flying school.
Would i be able to get a share in an aircraft for say 2500 plus 40 pm and 50ph and then pay and instructor to get me through my PPL. I was thinking that, in the long run, this may be cheaper.
Could i do this or would i have to go through a proper flying school.
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Hi there
As far as I know, yes, you can do that. You can train on an a/c with a private CofA as long as it's 'yours'. I was looking at a TB20 and mentioned the differences training required, but it wasn't a problem because an instructor/examiner in the group can do it for me once I buy in.
Whats the a/c? Make sure that things like landing fees don't figure - if the group pays hangarage it's usually included but just to be sure. Usually the bigger the group the less money will have to be coughed up for bills but the lesser the availability - but for your purposes, if you can fly midweek, it'd be fine....
good luck
As far as I know, yes, you can do that. You can train on an a/c with a private CofA as long as it's 'yours'. I was looking at a TB20 and mentioned the differences training required, but it wasn't a problem because an instructor/examiner in the group can do it for me once I buy in.
Whats the a/c? Make sure that things like landing fees don't figure - if the group pays hangarage it's usually included but just to be sure. Usually the bigger the group the less money will have to be coughed up for bills but the lesser the availability - but for your purposes, if you can fly midweek, it'd be fine....
good luck
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A few things to bear in mind though....
Insurance (might be expensive)
Group (may not want a zero hr pilot)
Unless you're rolling in cash, it'd probably be more economic to go through a school..
Cheers
EA
Insurance (might be expensive)
Group (may not want a zero hr pilot)
Unless you're rolling in cash, it'd probably be more economic to go through a school..
Cheers
EA
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Excellent reply from PA28-161, my understanding is that everything he's said is correct.
Two things though. First to emphasise PA28's point that the aircraft must be on a CofA - you're not allowed to use PFA aircraft for PPL instructing. And second, make sure that your aircraft meets all the requirements for your training. For example, it must have complete dual controls, including brakes. You must have sufficient navigational equipment to be able to show the examiner that you can track the appropriate beacons, and you must have enough instruments to be able to demonstrate instrument flying. I don't know the exact requirements, but I'm sure your friendly local examiner (or maybe instructor if you can't find an examiner) will be able to help you out.
FFF
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Two things though. First to emphasise PA28's point that the aircraft must be on a CofA - you're not allowed to use PFA aircraft for PPL instructing. And second, make sure that your aircraft meets all the requirements for your training. For example, it must have complete dual controls, including brakes. You must have sufficient navigational equipment to be able to show the examiner that you can track the appropriate beacons, and you must have enough instruments to be able to demonstrate instrument flying. I don't know the exact requirements, but I'm sure your friendly local examiner (or maybe instructor if you can't find an examiner) will be able to help you out.
FFF
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I don't believe that ab-initio training is possible on a group owned aircraft. See AIC White 49 particularly para 6.2. (You will need to be a registered user on the AIS site to view the AIC).
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Cahlibahn - is correct.
Moreover a private cat group aircraft cannot be used for training to add new ratings to your license once you have it. For new ratings only a public cat group aircraft is fine.
Moreover a private cat group aircraft cannot be used for training to add new ratings to your license once you have it. For new ratings only a public cat group aircraft is fine.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I've followed the link which Cahlibahn posted, and I agree - AIC White 49 quite clearly states that you can't have training for the purpose of gaining your license on a Private CofA aircraft.
But I'm sure I've heard of people doing this? Maybe the rules have changed recently? Or maybe my memory is playing up?
Interesting to note that, in Annexe B, paragraph 3 states that "flying training or checking excludes instruction in flying given for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grand of a pilot's license...", but there is no similar paragraph in Annexe A. In fact, Annexe A "hereby exempts any specified aircraft... to enable it to be flown for the purpose of aerial work which consists soley of the conducting of flying tests for the purpose of the grant... of a pilot's license..." So it seems that, although you can't have training on your own aircraft, you are allowed to do your skills test on it. Hmm.
FFF
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FlyingForFun - you are nearly correct. I should have added on a Group owned private cat. aircraft you are entitled to take any "test" required for the purposes of the renewal of an existing rating so long as it is not for the first grant of the rating. AIC 21 2000 white is still the definitive document I think. However you are not permitted to use the aircraft for the intitial grant of a license or rating and therefore I do not think you are correct that you can use the aircraft for your initial skill tests but you can use it for your C of E renewal or biannual. Oddly the same aircraft on a private cat owned by a husband and wife for example does not suffer from the same restriction, and therefore it is important to consider the exemptions conferred by AIC 21, rather than taking AIC white 49 in isolation.
I suspect there maybe a few who have in genuine error trained for and taken for example a night rating on their group owned private cat aircraft. The instructor should of course pick up the point and maybe the CAA when you submitt your application.
I guess you might be a bit upset if you completed an IMC course in said Group owned private cat aircraft to find the CAA refused to grant the rating!
The answer is of course to place the Group owned aircraft on public cat. which will then allow the aircraft to be used for any training towards and the flight test for the grant of a new rating but still does not overcome the problem with ab initio training for the grant of a PPL.
I wonder whether the same restrictions apply so far as an NPPL is concerned?
I suspect there maybe a few who have in genuine error trained for and taken for example a night rating on their group owned private cat aircraft. The instructor should of course pick up the point and maybe the CAA when you submitt your application.
I guess you might be a bit upset if you completed an IMC course in said Group owned private cat aircraft to find the CAA refused to grant the rating!
The answer is of course to place the Group owned aircraft on public cat. which will then allow the aircraft to be used for any training towards and the flight test for the grant of a new rating but still does not overcome the problem with ab initio training for the grant of a PPL.
I wonder whether the same restrictions apply so far as an NPPL is concerned?
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 14th Oct 2002 at 10:09.
I thought you could have your PPL training on a Private C of A aircraft or a PFA aircraft if you were the sole owner (or husband & wife)?
Regarding the comment about navaids for the skills test, how do you get around that if you are doing you PPL in a Tiger Moth for example? Do you have to do that bit in a suitably equipped aircraft or are there alternative nav tasks you can perform?
PS It wasn't called a Skills Test when I did my PPL and navaid training had to wait until the IMC Rating
Regarding the comment about navaids for the skills test, how do you get around that if you are doing you PPL in a Tiger Moth for example? Do you have to do that bit in a suitably equipped aircraft or are there alternative nav tasks you can perform?
PS It wasn't called a Skills Test when I did my PPL and navaid training had to wait until the IMC Rating
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There are two issues here
a. Training on a private Cof A aeroplane
b. Payment for flying training.
If there is no payment, the flight is private in all respects and you can train on any aeroplane.
JAR-FCL requires training aircraft to have a certificate of airworthiness accepted by a JAA State. This is not law and depending on the interpretation of "certificate" could include Permit aircraft.
If payment is made then the AIC White 49 comes into play.
If you change ownership, then you must register this with the CAA.
Before an instructor can teach you he must register as a Training Facility with the CAA giving details of your aircraft and the licensed aerodrome where training will take place.
If the aircraft is group owned, your problem is finding an instructor who will work for nothing so you can have a cheap PPL!
Bit like finding someone to take you out to lunch every Sunday!
a. Training on a private Cof A aeroplane
b. Payment for flying training.
If there is no payment, the flight is private in all respects and you can train on any aeroplane.
JAR-FCL requires training aircraft to have a certificate of airworthiness accepted by a JAA State. This is not law and depending on the interpretation of "certificate" could include Permit aircraft.
If payment is made then the AIC White 49 comes into play.
If you change ownership, then you must register this with the CAA.
Before an instructor can teach you he must register as a Training Facility with the CAA giving details of your aircraft and the licensed aerodrome where training will take place.
If the aircraft is group owned, your problem is finding an instructor who will work for nothing so you can have a cheap PPL!
Bit like finding someone to take you out to lunch every Sunday!
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Strateandlevel - I agree with your comments and that on the face of it the impact of the AICs is triggered by the usual need to pay the instructor however your interpretation is not that of the CAA. I spoke to their legal department and put to them a scenario in which the aircraft is Group owned on a private cat and a member of the group is a QFI who chose to render his services free of charge. Even in these circumstances the CAA felt because a payment was made to the Group to operate the aircraft the training could not be undertaken - that might not be your or my interpretation but that was their comment at the time. I guess you are ok if the group allows you to use the aircraft free of charge and the instructor does not charge for his time - pigs might fly as well.
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PWP - it seems from your recent threads that you are desperate to do your PPL as cheaply as possible. This doesn't seem the right attitude to me at all. I know flying is expensive, but you should be looking for the best training possible, not the cheapest.
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Strateandlevel. Please give me your advice on following situation.
Two members of an Auster Group on a Private C of A have PPL's but no tail wheel experience.
I have offered to do their tail wheel conversion with no renumeration.
I am registered FI at an FTO and the training will be done at a licenced airfield.
Can you see a problem with this regarding the CAA?
Two members of an Auster Group on a Private C of A have PPL's but no tail wheel experience.
I have offered to do their tail wheel conversion with no renumeration.
I am registered FI at an FTO and the training will be done at a licenced airfield.
Can you see a problem with this regarding the CAA?
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Twizzle - I shall be interested in Starteandlevel thoughts.
You may want to look at the appendix to AIC 21 which says:
"For the purposes of this exemption (for Group training in Group owned private cat. aricraft - my comment) flying training or checking excludes instruction in flying given for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant of a pilot's licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a licence ( and then goes on to specifically exempt a certificate of test or revalidation - my comment)."
I would have thought the answer was therefore - no, (because presumably now difference training is a variation of the license priviliges signified by the signed endorsement of the FI in the log book) and that was what the CAA told me when I asked the question. It seems to me this falls in the grey area - what seems to be absolutely clear is a Group owned private cat aircraft cannot be used for ab initio training, or training towards any new rating if the FI is paid for his services.
To go back to the original question it should be born in mind that the cost of changing from private to public cat is not that great these days and the more onerous maintenance requirements have now largely gone. You might therefore be able to reach an agreement with the Group to place the aircraft on the public category.
You may want to look at the appendix to AIC 21 which says:
"For the purposes of this exemption (for Group training in Group owned private cat. aricraft - my comment) flying training or checking excludes instruction in flying given for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant of a pilot's licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a licence ( and then goes on to specifically exempt a certificate of test or revalidation - my comment)."
I would have thought the answer was therefore - no, (because presumably now difference training is a variation of the license priviliges signified by the signed endorsement of the FI in the log book) and that was what the CAA told me when I asked the question. It seems to me this falls in the grey area - what seems to be absolutely clear is a Group owned private cat aircraft cannot be used for ab initio training, or training towards any new rating if the FI is paid for his services.
To go back to the original question it should be born in mind that the cost of changing from private to public cat is not that great these days and the more onerous maintenance requirements have now largely gone. You might therefore be able to reach an agreement with the Group to place the aircraft on the public category.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 15th Oct 2002 at 11:26.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I'd disagree with Fuji on this one... I'd also be interested to hear what other think.
What is not allowed is "instruction in flying given for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant of a pilot's licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a licence." (My highlights, to indicate the bit which could, possibly, preclude twizzle's situation.)
A tailwheel checkout is not, as far as I'm aware, a rating (which would need to be explicitly listed on your license) nor a variation of a rating (not sure what that would be - maybe a night qualification, which, although not actually a rating, does get written onto your license?) It is a requirement, but the requirement is satisfied once you've had the training, there's no need to have your license updated.
It's also worth noting that, under the PFA coaching scheme, a PFA instructor will train you on your PFA aircraft, including any complex checkouts (including tail-wheel) which are needed.
And, from a purely logical point of view (although we all know logic has very little influence on these things!) it simply doesn't make sense to not allow someone to do a type conversion on the type they're converting to!
FFF
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What is not allowed is "instruction in flying given for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant of a pilot's licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a licence." (My highlights, to indicate the bit which could, possibly, preclude twizzle's situation.)
A tailwheel checkout is not, as far as I'm aware, a rating (which would need to be explicitly listed on your license) nor a variation of a rating (not sure what that would be - maybe a night qualification, which, although not actually a rating, does get written onto your license?) It is a requirement, but the requirement is satisfied once you've had the training, there's no need to have your license updated.
It's also worth noting that, under the PFA coaching scheme, a PFA instructor will train you on your PFA aircraft, including any complex checkouts (including tail-wheel) which are needed.
And, from a purely logical point of view (although we all know logic has very little influence on these things!) it simply doesn't make sense to not allow someone to do a type conversion on the type they're converting to!
FFF
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Fuji & FFF........ Thanks for your input.
I have to say that reading AIC 1/2002 I agree with FlyingForFun.
A "Tailwheel conversion" does not require any test/revalidation or any entry recorded on your licence.
Very interesting point about PFA instruction. I shall follow that up!
I have to say that reading AIC 1/2002 I agree with FlyingForFun.
A "Tailwheel conversion" does not require any test/revalidation or any entry recorded on your licence.
Very interesting point about PFA instruction. I shall follow that up!
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Fuji,
If you are a member of the group and you wish to give instruction it could well be argued that you are receiving benefit in kind thus it is aerial work. If you were not a member of the group and received no remuneration there is no problem.
The issue is that if money changes hands, the aircraft must have a public cat because it, or part of it is being rented from the group. The C of A has nothing to do with instruction, only the hire of the aeroplane.
Twizzle
No problem whatsoever. No remuneration, and the flight is private.
If you are a member of the group and you wish to give instruction it could well be argued that you are receiving benefit in kind thus it is aerial work. If you were not a member of the group and received no remuneration there is no problem.
The issue is that if money changes hands, the aircraft must have a public cat because it, or part of it is being rented from the group. The C of A has nothing to do with instruction, only the hire of the aeroplane.
Twizzle
No problem whatsoever. No remuneration, and the flight is private.
Last edited by StrateandLevel; 16th Oct 2002 at 17:17.
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I co-own a PA-28 & checked this out a few months back.
In short:
If it's on a Public C of A, yes
If it's on a Private C of A, No
You can train on a Private C of A if you fully own the a/c, but not if you're a partial owner.
Once you have a lisence, you can renew it on a co-owned a/c but for some reason, you can't earn it in the first place.
I got this info straight from the horses mouth (CAA) & they confirmed it by pointing me to the relevent docs.
AIS form 4W049
In short:
If it's on a Public C of A, yes
If it's on a Private C of A, No
You can train on a Private C of A if you fully own the a/c, but not if you're a partial owner.
Once you have a lisence, you can renew it on a co-owned a/c but for some reason, you can't earn it in the first place.
I got this info straight from the horses mouth (CAA) & they confirmed it by pointing me to the relevent docs.
AIS form 4W049
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Son does this all mean that if the aircraft has a public certificate of airworthiness, then i can get a share in the aircraft, and then pay an instrucotr to do my PPL?
Thanks for all of your inputs
Thanks for all of your inputs