Late clearences?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dorset
Posts: 902
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CIM: Given the circumstances, you did the right thing by going around.
I'm maybe a bit more pushy and with the benefit of hindsight + a few minutes to think of an answer, I'd have maybe interjected once or twice when it looked like I'd been forgotten, eg:
Blah Blah Blah ..........
G-AAAA: "Continue approach"
G-ZZZZ "G-ZZZZ Late finals xx"
If no reaction from ATC:
ZZZ does his touch and go. CIM now at 300' on approach and expects clearance. No such luck.
ATC: "G-AAAA, surface wind xxx, cleared to land runway xx"
G-AAAA: " G-AAAA, cleared to land, runway XX"
G-ZZZZ "G-ZZZZ VERY late finals - confirm you wish me to go around"
That's not quite CAP413, but I have been known in similar circumstances to 'remind' ATC that they've made a boo boo without trying to rub their noses in it!
I'm maybe a bit more pushy and with the benefit of hindsight + a few minutes to think of an answer, I'd have maybe interjected once or twice when it looked like I'd been forgotten, eg:
Blah Blah Blah ..........
G-AAAA: "Continue approach"
G-ZZZZ "G-ZZZZ Late finals xx"
If no reaction from ATC:
ZZZ does his touch and go. CIM now at 300' on approach and expects clearance. No such luck.
ATC: "G-AAAA, surface wind xxx, cleared to land runway xx"
G-AAAA: " G-AAAA, cleared to land, runway XX"
G-ZZZZ "G-ZZZZ VERY late finals - confirm you wish me to go around"
That's not quite CAP413, but I have been known in similar circumstances to 'remind' ATC that they've made a boo boo without trying to rub their noses in it!
Guest
Posts: n/a
CIM
An ATPL once told me that "you're not committed until you're on the taxiway!"
The lowest go around I have done was from a poor landing, more precisely from the subsequent bounce.
When operating from a short field, I would be prepared to go around down to the point I felt that I could land as necessary to stop on the runway and in a "floaty" PA28 that could be just before flaring.
The lowest go around I have personally witnessed in an airliner (as pax) was from 14 ft (radio altimeter)
F3G
What is a good decision hight in perfect visability?
The lowest go around I have done was from a poor landing, more precisely from the subsequent bounce.
When operating from a short field, I would be prepared to go around down to the point I felt that I could land as necessary to stop on the runway and in a "floaty" PA28 that could be just before flaring.
The lowest go around I have personally witnessed in an airliner (as pax) was from 14 ft (radio altimeter)
F3G
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: united kingdom
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Late landing clearances are often the result of the preceding aircraft having a long taxi to vacate the runway. Here a 'land after' clearance from ATC can be very useful, where the onus for separation falls very firmly on the shoulders of the following aircraft. ATC seem to use this clearance infrequently at GA airfields. On a couple of occasions, I have transmitted on short final. 'G-XXXX can accept land after.' the response has been a land after clearance, a safe landing with adequate separation, and avoiding a go-around. However, land after can only be given in certain conditions (daylight, good vis, clear visual contact between the a/c etc).
This does not apply to the CIM scenario, I know, but is relevant to the general subject of late landing clearances.
This does not apply to the CIM scenario, I know, but is relevant to the general subject of late landing clearances.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Belfast
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi CIM
Sticky stuff, but a good decision under pressure...ATC must simply have forgotten you. You had the right under air law - being the a/c on approach to land at the lowest height - but as everyone has said, you need permission, and once the ATC passed over you to the next geezer, all you could do is go around. I think most of us who fly in and out of larger airports have been close to going around before we've gotten a clearance - despite a few reminders. They're only human! No idea what the garble stuff was about. If you have a chance, visit the tower and ask someone what it was about - chances are actually having the temerity to show up will get you an apology/explanation. Some controllers have been kind enough to give me one over the air after a minor foul up. Sounds like another busy day. But isn't it funny how the mood of the ATC can affect how you think of your flight - you did an admirable job, all was well, yet you've probably been thinking about it a lot - yet if ATC had asked you to go around, you'd probably have felt ok about it and no more would have been said.
All good experience.....!
Sticky stuff, but a good decision under pressure...ATC must simply have forgotten you. You had the right under air law - being the a/c on approach to land at the lowest height - but as everyone has said, you need permission, and once the ATC passed over you to the next geezer, all you could do is go around. I think most of us who fly in and out of larger airports have been close to going around before we've gotten a clearance - despite a few reminders. They're only human! No idea what the garble stuff was about. If you have a chance, visit the tower and ask someone what it was about - chances are actually having the temerity to show up will get you an apology/explanation. Some controllers have been kind enough to give me one over the air after a minor foul up. Sounds like another busy day. But isn't it funny how the mood of the ATC can affect how you think of your flight - you did an admirable job, all was well, yet you've probably been thinking about it a lot - yet if ATC had asked you to go around, you'd probably have felt ok about it and no more would have been said.
All good experience.....!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Bedfordshire UK
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi
Still not got to the bottom of the "garbel" "garbel" transmission.
Let's have a small competition to see who might come up with the best interpretation
My guess
ATC: "G-XXXX, Sorry I forgot about you"
or
ATC: "G-XXXX, Thanks a bunch, that has really bo??ocked up my spacing efforts."
Still not got to the bottom of the "garbel" "garbel" transmission.
Let's have a small competition to see who might come up with the best interpretation
My guess
ATC: "G-XXXX, Sorry I forgot about you"
or
ATC: "G-XXXX, Thanks a bunch, that has really bo??ocked up my spacing efforts."
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Perth, WA
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CIM
The airfield I fly into is fairly busy and it is quite common not to get clearance until as late as crossing the undershoot. The lowest go round I've done has been from about 2ft of the runway.
Last week while doing some circuits I was told to continue as a low approach whilst another aircraft cleared the runway and was given landing clearance while about 50m down the runway at about 1ft from the hard top.
I guess that in a busy circuit the ATC's can lose sight of whats happening, to me that's just one of those things. Usually compounded by someone in the circuit doing something that they should'nt be. Like the prat last Sunday who decided to make an early turn after doing a go round without clearance from the tower. Got a right bollocking over the air.
My neighbour a couple of years back was ATC at this airfield and he ended up taking 6 months off after a fairly hectic time to get his head straight again. I would not do ATC for love nor money and have the greatest respect for folks who do a very tough job. My own inclination would be to forget it and get on with life. It's nothing major.
The airfield I fly into is fairly busy and it is quite common not to get clearance until as late as crossing the undershoot. The lowest go round I've done has been from about 2ft of the runway.
Last week while doing some circuits I was told to continue as a low approach whilst another aircraft cleared the runway and was given landing clearance while about 50m down the runway at about 1ft from the hard top.
I guess that in a busy circuit the ATC's can lose sight of whats happening, to me that's just one of those things. Usually compounded by someone in the circuit doing something that they should'nt be. Like the prat last Sunday who decided to make an early turn after doing a go round without clearance from the tower. Got a right bollocking over the air.
My neighbour a couple of years back was ATC at this airfield and he ended up taking 6 months off after a fairly hectic time to get his head straight again. I would not do ATC for love nor money and have the greatest respect for folks who do a very tough job. My own inclination would be to forget it and get on with life. It's nothing major.
