ANOTHER thread on holder's operating capacity (sorry)...
High Flying Bird
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ANOTHER thread on holder's operating capacity (sorry)...
Okay, two different instructors at my club have given me two different answers to this, so it's time to put it to the experts 
My skills test I have logged as P1/S ... with my examiner as captain, but the time I was told to log as 'In command'
Next I did a Cherokee check out. Again, the instructor went in the 'Captain' column, I logged as P1/S, and was told to log as 'In command'
But... shouldn't I be logging the Cherokee as dual? The same with the Chipmunk? The GFT presumably stays logged as time in command, because it was successful, and therefore my examiner didn't have to take command? But then why would his name appear in the 'captain' column?
Help, I thought I understood this!
My skills test I have logged as P1/S ... with my examiner as captain, but the time I was told to log as 'In command'
Next I did a Cherokee check out. Again, the instructor went in the 'Captain' column, I logged as P1/S, and was told to log as 'In command'
But... shouldn't I be logging the Cherokee as dual? The same with the Chipmunk? The GFT presumably stays logged as time in command, because it was successful, and therefore my examiner didn't have to take command? But then why would his name appear in the 'captain' column?
Help, I thought I understood this!
Join Date: Jun 2002
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I must admit that all these P's etc. seem a bit confusing to a poor lad down here.
I do know that whilst doing my check rides in the C172 I had to log the instructor as command, myself as other crew and the time as dual. This makes sense to me as I did feel "under instruction" while doing these hours.
I do know that whilst doing my check rides in the C172 I had to log the instructor as command, myself as other crew and the time as dual. This makes sense to me as I did feel "under instruction" while doing these hours.
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GID44 - Logging of Flight Time (Acrobat Reader Required) is the document that Irv is talking about. He's quite right - apart from during your skills test you must have been either P1 or Pu/t, and that's something for you to agree with your instructor in advance.
FWIW, I was told (by an examiner) that the CAA just count any extra time logged P1s as P.u/t, but I'm not sure if that is true or not.
FWIW, I was told (by an examiner) that the CAA just count any extra time logged P1s as P.u/t, but I'm not sure if that is true or not.
I say there boy
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Arrggghhh logging again!!!
It's amazing - the regulations regarding the logging of time under JAR are really simple, and yet many people who should know better (ie. Instructors) are regularly telling students and PPLs the wrong thing and getting them to log P1S for all sorts of things that they shouldn't be.
If it's a successful skills test for a licence or rating, the candidate logs P1S and the examiner P1.
At all other times only one person can log P1 at any one time.
By definition you can't log P2 in a Single Pilot Aircraft.
Therefore all other flights must be logged either P1 or PUT. If the flight is logged PUT, the instructor or examiner can log it as P1.
Note that the general (and IMHO sensible) JAR principle of only one person logging pilot in command in a Single Pilot Aircraft is at variance with the FARs, where there are many cases where two people can log Pilot In Command
cheers!
foggy.
If it's a successful skills test for a licence or rating, the candidate logs P1S and the examiner P1.
At all other times only one person can log P1 at any one time.
By definition you can't log P2 in a Single Pilot Aircraft.
Therefore all other flights must be logged either P1 or PUT. If the flight is logged PUT, the instructor or examiner can log it as P1.
Note that the general (and IMHO sensible) JAR principle of only one person logging pilot in command in a Single Pilot Aircraft is at variance with the FARs, where there are many cases where two people can log Pilot In Command
cheers!
foggy.
Last edited by foghorn; 7th Sep 2002 at 09:15.
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>>would like to post an answer from ..
Website: ABsolutely no problem, Please help yourself !
Points I'd add: I don't believe anyone will EVER convince the majority of the instructor population that p1-p1/s is for examiners only - it's far too endemic, and everyone was brought up that way. I'm just concerned that if this ever gets the spotlight on it for the 12 hours 'counting' rules, someone (the guy that actually paid for the flight!) is going to be unhappy IF examiners are told sometime in the future that next time they count to 12, P1/s doesn't count if it wasn't with an examiner. Remember it's the pilots responsibility to log properly, but I'd think p-u-t is much 'safer' and 'future proof' if the instructor was taking the P1, so convince yourself you are being trained.
Why would the spotlight fall on it?
Alarm bells started ringing on this when JAR came in and I heard some syndicate (just normal PPL holders) at Popham discussing getting round the 12 hours requirement by actually doing 6 each. (They always fly together, they wanted to always claim one was 'checking out the other for the syndicate', so in their grand plan they wanted to log every flight as p1-p1/s and double count the hours - obviously alternating the checkouts, so they could both get 12 hours out of only 12 hours aircraft use!)
I told them not to come and see me with their log books, but if that became common place, you could imagine a rethink of how hours are checked might happen!
Website: ABsolutely no problem, Please help yourself !
Points I'd add: I don't believe anyone will EVER convince the majority of the instructor population that p1-p1/s is for examiners only - it's far too endemic, and everyone was brought up that way. I'm just concerned that if this ever gets the spotlight on it for the 12 hours 'counting' rules, someone (the guy that actually paid for the flight!) is going to be unhappy IF examiners are told sometime in the future that next time they count to 12, P1/s doesn't count if it wasn't with an examiner. Remember it's the pilots responsibility to log properly, but I'd think p-u-t is much 'safer' and 'future proof' if the instructor was taking the P1, so convince yourself you are being trained.
Why would the spotlight fall on it?
Alarm bells started ringing on this when JAR came in and I heard some syndicate (just normal PPL holders) at Popham discussing getting round the 12 hours requirement by actually doing 6 each. (They always fly together, they wanted to always claim one was 'checking out the other for the syndicate', so in their grand plan they wanted to log every flight as p1-p1/s and double count the hours - obviously alternating the checkouts, so they could both get 12 hours out of only 12 hours aircraft use!)
I told them not to come and see me with their log books, but if that became common place, you could imagine a rethink of how hours are checked might happen!
The Original Whirly
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Aerbabe,
I've been running into this for years. As others have said, the majority of instructors have no idea of the rules about this. I've had instructors fill in the line in my logbook themselves, as P1S, for a checkout. I now try and do it correctly, and try to tell them, but if they fill it in, or won't listen, I just let it go. It's so few hours in the long run that I feel it hardly matters. Though as someone will no doubt point it, it's important really. I just can't be bothered to carry on fighting about something so trivial.
I've been running into this for years. As others have said, the majority of instructors have no idea of the rules about this. I've had instructors fill in the line in my logbook themselves, as P1S, for a checkout. I now try and do it correctly, and try to tell them, but if they fill it in, or won't listen, I just let it go. It's so few hours in the long run that I feel it hardly matters. Though as someone will no doubt point it, it's important really. I just can't be bothered to carry on fighting about something so trivial.
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Cruise relief
Motivated by this thread I donwloaded the GID44 panflet. Can someone explain me what this "cruise relief" pilot is? It seems to allow P2 when flying an aircraft not requiring 2 pilots.
