Hopeless at landings
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Can I ask a follow-up on landings?
I guess like everyone else, I have a number of instructors teaching me - depending on their availability. Mostly its the school's fulltime instructors but occassionally its part-time instructors (some of whom are commercial pilots - v impressive).
Anyway - I'm learning in C152 and my full time instructor favours landing with two stages of flap - feels it gives better control, less float, less severe flare required etc and one of my part-time instructors (not a commerical piolt) likes to have full flap on approach.
No biggie clearly and I've asked to learn with two stages to be consistent, but has anyone got a view on this?
Thanks
I guess like everyone else, I have a number of instructors teaching me - depending on their availability. Mostly its the school's fulltime instructors but occassionally its part-time instructors (some of whom are commercial pilots - v impressive).
Anyway - I'm learning in C152 and my full time instructor favours landing with two stages of flap - feels it gives better control, less float, less severe flare required etc and one of my part-time instructors (not a commerical piolt) likes to have full flap on approach.
No biggie clearly and I've asked to learn with two stages to be consistent, but has anyone got a view on this?
Thanks
PPruNaholic!
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I've not flown a C152 more than once, so can't comment on the aprticular aircraft, but I recently heard from an instructor who teaches on PA28's that they usually have students only use 2 stages of flap instead of the usual full flap as it gives better airspeed margins over the stall, which may be required in gusty conditions (the instructor was at a gusty island location!) and generally more room for error in this dept. for early stage students. They later get them using full flap. I guess its down to the instructors preference - but this may be whats behind the different approaches? Why not ask over on the Flying Instructors forum?
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C152 Landing
Different people learn at different rates, and much of it has to do with how often you are flying, and what the conditions are like when you do fly.
As for the question regarding flap use, the use of 20 degrees flap (two notches as some of you put it) leads to better stability in crosswind or turbulent conditions, but I teach 30 degrees (3 notches) and 65 knots over the fence as the normal. Using less flap leads to a reduced nose down tendancy, and therefore makes flaring easier, but has the disadvantage of a longer float (contrary to what you have written), and therefore an increase in the length of runway used.
Some tips for landing: fly a stable approach, learn to recognise when you are high or low, fast or slow, and know how to correct it before it gets too far out from the normal profile. Ask your instructor to demonstrate these if you are unsure, sometimes a redomonstration can work wonders. Use attitudes to help attain airspeeds (which also keeps your eyes outside more), and trim to keep the aircraft at those attitudes. Use an aiming point on the runway, as you round out work your eyes further down the runway so you avoid 'ground rush'. as you flare, look ahead and keep straight using rudder.
Hope this helps.
Kermie
As for the question regarding flap use, the use of 20 degrees flap (two notches as some of you put it) leads to better stability in crosswind or turbulent conditions, but I teach 30 degrees (3 notches) and 65 knots over the fence as the normal. Using less flap leads to a reduced nose down tendancy, and therefore makes flaring easier, but has the disadvantage of a longer float (contrary to what you have written), and therefore an increase in the length of runway used.
Some tips for landing: fly a stable approach, learn to recognise when you are high or low, fast or slow, and know how to correct it before it gets too far out from the normal profile. Ask your instructor to demonstrate these if you are unsure, sometimes a redomonstration can work wonders. Use attitudes to help attain airspeeds (which also keeps your eyes outside more), and trim to keep the aircraft at those attitudes. Use an aiming point on the runway, as you round out work your eyes further down the runway so you avoid 'ground rush'. as you flare, look ahead and keep straight using rudder.
Hope this helps.
Kermie
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ChiSau,
For the definitive answer, check the Pilots Operating Handbook (POH) for the particular aircraft. The school should be able to tell you where to find it.
I've never flown a C152, so I can't comment on that type. But, on the PA28, I don't think it's to do with the margin above the stall, as Aussie Andy says, although he's close. What happens is that, with less flap, the stall speed is higher. Therefore the approach speed is higher. Therefore, in gusty conditions, the gust speed is a lower proportion of your approach speed, and so gusts will have less effect on the aircraft.
Personally, I use full flaps in a PA28, except in gusty conditions. This gives a lower stalling speed, hence a lower landing speed, and it takes less time/distance to brake on the runway. Now I'm flying a Europa, and I have no choice but to use full flaps, since the gear is connected to the flaps - if the flaps are up, the gear's up too!
FFF
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For the definitive answer, check the Pilots Operating Handbook (POH) for the particular aircraft. The school should be able to tell you where to find it.
I've never flown a C152, so I can't comment on that type. But, on the PA28, I don't think it's to do with the margin above the stall, as Aussie Andy says, although he's close. What happens is that, with less flap, the stall speed is higher. Therefore the approach speed is higher. Therefore, in gusty conditions, the gust speed is a lower proportion of your approach speed, and so gusts will have less effect on the aircraft.
Personally, I use full flaps in a PA28, except in gusty conditions. This gives a lower stalling speed, hence a lower landing speed, and it takes less time/distance to brake on the runway. Now I'm flying a Europa, and I have no choice but to use full flaps, since the gear is connected to the flaps - if the flaps are up, the gear's up too!
FFF
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ChiSau,
It may not be possible at your school, but it's a heck of a lot easier to learn ONE landing techinque with ONE instructor. Try and see if you can't stay with the same chap. If you insist the school may let you. Once you can land, then is the time to try other variations.
It may not be possible at your school, but it's a heck of a lot easier to learn ONE landing techinque with ONE instructor. Try and see if you can't stay with the same chap. If you insist the school may let you. Once you can land, then is the time to try other variations.
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ChiSau
The other thing that may help is getting used to the idea of using your periferal vision in the latter stages of the flare (if you are holding off properly you won’t be able to see down the runway straight ahead cos the nose will be in the way) the second thing which nobody has mentioned so far (I don’t think so anyway) is if you’ve flared too high or bounce it have no fear, just open up and go around (same thing applies if you just can’t get happy with an approach earlier on). No instuctor or any other pilot worth their salt will hold it against you, in fact they will probably commend you for your airmanship. Remember what goes around lands better.
The other thing I’ve heard on the flap setting question especially for early on students is that with two lots of flap (on a PA28 anyway) the go-around is easier because there’s no immediate need to take drag flap off when climbing away. I always use full flap (unless its gusty) if you got it use it that’s my motto.
The other thing that may help is getting used to the idea of using your periferal vision in the latter stages of the flare (if you are holding off properly you won’t be able to see down the runway straight ahead cos the nose will be in the way) the second thing which nobody has mentioned so far (I don’t think so anyway) is if you’ve flared too high or bounce it have no fear, just open up and go around (same thing applies if you just can’t get happy with an approach earlier on). No instuctor or any other pilot worth their salt will hold it against you, in fact they will probably commend you for your airmanship. Remember what goes around lands better.
The other thing I’ve heard on the flap setting question especially for early on students is that with two lots of flap (on a PA28 anyway) the go-around is easier because there’s no immediate need to take drag flap off when climbing away. I always use full flap (unless its gusty) if you got it use it that’s my motto.
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Some excellent advice so far.
I always landed hard, never bounced. However, most of my landings are fine now. This is because one day i decided to trim on final, and I could suddenly "feel" the aircraft in the flare. My PPL instructor never taught this. Nail your approach speed, get the attitude and TRIM.
try it
I always landed hard, never bounced. However, most of my landings are fine now. This is because one day i decided to trim on final, and I could suddenly "feel" the aircraft in the flare. My PPL instructor never taught this. Nail your approach speed, get the attitude and TRIM.
try it
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The C152 is lovely to land. It is pretty stable, and doesn't float too much.
Trim. All the time. Keep one hand on it most of the way down. Keep your airspeed at around 65 kt, and two stages of flap. You can worry about three stages, or flapless later.
Try and learn to fly by attitude, rather than airspeed. Learn how much ground will be above the cowling, and then occasionally glance down to make sure your speed is ok.
Once you're at the final stages of... well final... forget the trim and the airspeed, and keep your eyes out the front.
Are you taking off all the power before you flare? If so, try leaving a little on. 1200 rpm will be enough to help make the whole process a little smoother. Again, you can worry about doing it 'right' once you've got the hang of the flare.
Finally, how do you know when to flare? Keep pointing at the ground until you hear your instructor take a sharp intake of breath, and then pull back
Trim. All the time. Keep one hand on it most of the way down. Keep your airspeed at around 65 kt, and two stages of flap. You can worry about three stages, or flapless later.
Try and learn to fly by attitude, rather than airspeed. Learn how much ground will be above the cowling, and then occasionally glance down to make sure your speed is ok.
Once you're at the final stages of... well final... forget the trim and the airspeed, and keep your eyes out the front.
Are you taking off all the power before you flare? If so, try leaving a little on. 1200 rpm will be enough to help make the whole process a little smoother. Again, you can worry about doing it 'right' once you've got the hang of the flare.
Finally, how do you know when to flare? Keep pointing at the ground until you hear your instructor take a sharp intake of breath, and then pull back
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Another small point - always try to have your seat in the same position. I know it sounds silly, but you are aiming for consistancy & this is another variable you can eliminate.
Altering the seat height will change 'the picture'. If your instructor wants you to put the top of the cowling on the end on the runway when you flare and the seat is right down, you won't flare much.
Conversely if the seat is up, you will have to flare more, which is a good thing, as long as you don't balloon!!
Altering the seat height will change 'the picture'. If your instructor wants you to put the top of the cowling on the end on the runway when you flare and the seat is right down, you won't flare much.
Conversely if the seat is up, you will have to flare more, which is a good thing, as long as you don't balloon!!
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Not sure how many people would subscribe to this (and I am braced for a special PPRuNe caning) but here goes.
My instructor told me that you knew you were on the right track with the flair if just before you touched down you heard the stall warner kick in. Just a suggestion
My instructor told me that you knew you were on the right track with the flair if just before you touched down you heard the stall warner kick in. Just a suggestion
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Landings
Shoot me down instructors, but I used to instruct too.
Back in the old days I really couldn't afford to learn to fly(even at £6.40 per hour!). I therefore disciplined myself to book a lesson only if the weather was right for the exercise and would cancel if it wasn't.
Peer pressure dictates that the instructor will always relieve you of your money.
However, you are the customer. If you are 'early circuits' then the last thing you want is a howling crosswnd - something that - well lets face it - plenty of pilots with a thousand hours or more can get horribly wrong.
Better to get some in when the wind is favourable and not spend your money on a long frustrated face.
Crosswind landings are a natural progression in your training. Learn to land - then learn to land in less than perfect conditions. Seems sensible to me.
By applying this discipline - which in practise didn't cause too much anxiety to the school in view of the fact we had more than 1 runway and i worked shifts - I had completed my full PPL sylabus, including my solo cross country - all non radio in a taildraggin' Condor - in just 26 hours, having solo'd at 11. I did my GFT at 39 hours.
So - the message is - if you can afford it and the 'hours to solo' don't bother you (they shouldn't bother you a jot - many top professionals struggled initially) carry on as you are.
If not - pick your days, get off solo quickly and build on that experience. Once you can get the roundout right - booting the drift off comes with a bit more practise. However, trying to get it all right, and consistently right to a standard that your instructor is happy to send you off? - thats another story! He won't in a 15kt crosswind - never.
Back in the old days I really couldn't afford to learn to fly(even at £6.40 per hour!). I therefore disciplined myself to book a lesson only if the weather was right for the exercise and would cancel if it wasn't.
Peer pressure dictates that the instructor will always relieve you of your money.
However, you are the customer. If you are 'early circuits' then the last thing you want is a howling crosswnd - something that - well lets face it - plenty of pilots with a thousand hours or more can get horribly wrong.
Better to get some in when the wind is favourable and not spend your money on a long frustrated face.
Crosswind landings are a natural progression in your training. Learn to land - then learn to land in less than perfect conditions. Seems sensible to me.
By applying this discipline - which in practise didn't cause too much anxiety to the school in view of the fact we had more than 1 runway and i worked shifts - I had completed my full PPL sylabus, including my solo cross country - all non radio in a taildraggin' Condor - in just 26 hours, having solo'd at 11. I did my GFT at 39 hours.
So - the message is - if you can afford it and the 'hours to solo' don't bother you (they shouldn't bother you a jot - many top professionals struggled initially) carry on as you are.
If not - pick your days, get off solo quickly and build on that experience. Once you can get the roundout right - booting the drift off comes with a bit more practise. However, trying to get it all right, and consistently right to a standard that your instructor is happy to send you off? - thats another story! He won't in a 15kt crosswind - never.
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Hey there,
After only one hour of these things I'm not suprised you're not happy!
It took me about 4 hours just to get the circuits right, remembering to keep centerline after liftoff, remembering to keep at the circuit level, remembering to make the pre - landing checks 'BUMPFISH', call abeam on downwind, lower each stage of flap at the right time etc etc.
These are all important to do well, as a good approach makes for a good landing.
I'd say - concentrate on your height, and speed mostly as if you're 200ft too high on final it makes for a poor landing! Always aim for the numbers and maintain your approach speed to the knot, as if you're too fast or slow it has a big impact on the quality of the landing.
As with a lot of other people, after my first hour I was feeling as if I wouldn't be unable to cope with everything which you have to do in that short space of time.
Give it 3 hours and you'll be fine - You'll have BUMPFISH off in 0.5 seconds! (I'm just kiddin' for those who may jump me for rushing important checks )
Ian
After only one hour of these things I'm not suprised you're not happy!
It took me about 4 hours just to get the circuits right, remembering to keep centerline after liftoff, remembering to keep at the circuit level, remembering to make the pre - landing checks 'BUMPFISH', call abeam on downwind, lower each stage of flap at the right time etc etc.
These are all important to do well, as a good approach makes for a good landing.
I'd say - concentrate on your height, and speed mostly as if you're 200ft too high on final it makes for a poor landing! Always aim for the numbers and maintain your approach speed to the knot, as if you're too fast or slow it has a big impact on the quality of the landing.
As with a lot of other people, after my first hour I was feeling as if I wouldn't be unable to cope with everything which you have to do in that short space of time.
Give it 3 hours and you'll be fine - You'll have BUMPFISH off in 0.5 seconds! (I'm just kiddin' for those who may jump me for rushing important checks
)Ian
Last edited by Ian_Wannabe; 9th Sep 2002 at 19:20.
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landing
It is amazing how many bad instructors are out there,low time pilots that try to teach what they dont know,take your money and kill your confidence.Anyone that wants to fly can just fly with other pilots who will be happy to teach, and do only the required hours with an instructor,perfectly legal.
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Less hopeless at landings now!
Just a quick update on the landing problems you guys helped me with.
Had the week off work last week and flew all week and both the weekends .
Took all your advice on board which helped a lot - to the point where they even sent me off on my first solo . Fabulous feeling - quite extraordinary to be up there on your own for the first time, though pretty scary too. Talked to myself the entire way around the circuit and even managed my best landing to date!
Anyway, cracked through the week, did my first solo nav (also really really good fun), have done 4 exams (3 more to go?) and up to about 39 hours so am getting closer...
Just sorry to be down here typing this rather than up there flying!
Had the week off work last week and flew all week and both the weekends
.Took all your advice on board which helped a lot - to the point where they even sent me off on my first solo
. Fabulous feeling - quite extraordinary to be up there on your own for the first time, though pretty scary too. Talked to myself the entire way around the circuit and even managed my best landing to date!Anyway, cracked through the week, did my first solo nav (also really really good fun), have done 4 exams (3 more to go?) and up to about 39 hours so am getting closer...
Just sorry to be down here typing this rather than up there flying!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Hey, Well Done ChiSau!
Was especially nice to hear that your first solo landing was so good! My first solo landing was also one of my best. But I made up for it with my second solo, when I did three of my worst landings ever!
FFF
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Was especially nice to hear that your first solo landing was so good! My first solo landing was also one of my best. But I made up for it with my second solo, when I did three of my worst landings ever!
FFF
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CONGRATS