Enhancing SA with type-specific call signs
Thread Starter
Enhancing SA with type-specific call signs
Hi All, I'm the Editor of GASCo Flight Safety Magazine, and in my most recent column I opined that situational awareness in the circuit would be enhanced if pilots used “Warrior Charlie Delta or “Skylane Charlie Delta” rather than “Golf Charlie Delta. (CAP 413 does allow this, but few pilots do it, although it's a very common procedure in the US). The piece generated the largest mailbag to the editorial office since I became Editor, and the column was subsequently picked up and reprinted by Flight Training News. I was wondering if the many pilots of PPRuNe had an opinion? Cheers, Dave
Last edited by DaveUnwin; 4th Sep 2023 at 17:13.
I use whatever ATC call me. There used to be two local aircraft with one letter difference and when both on radio ATC used full callsign.
I was told to use Type replacing N in the US but later was told to use N#####.
I was told to use Type replacing N in the US but later was told to use N#####.
if the many pilots of PPRuNe had an opinion?
I mainly fly from strip to strip thus sometimes remaining on the safetycom frequency for the whole flight. Learning from our US cousins I'm rigorous at topping and tailing my calls with the fields designated name and adding my type and colour to my abbreviated callsign. So having made my initial call a subsequent transmission might be " Saltby traffic blue Shark Charlie Delta left base 07 Saltby"
My logic is most pilots are not plane spotters so an encyclopedic knowledge of local callsigns can't be relied upon but hearing "blah blah Blue thing on final" might get through..
In USA when working tower, approach, or center, I'm "Archer xxxxx" or "Experimental Carbon Cub yyyy" on first call then abreviated to "Cub yyy" At an uncontrolled field I'm sometimes "yellow cub". I hate it when experimentals call with "Experimental aaaa" as I have no clue what I'm looking for or what their performance may be. In USA non experimentals almost always give their type.
The abbreviated call sign and the position in the circuit is all that should matter to other pilots. A few exceptions: " G-AB Downwind glide approach", G-AB final land/touch and go"; the occasions when a standard circuit is varied. Knowing whether the aircraft is a PA28-140 or a PA28-32 is of little identification help. To be able to identify any light aircraft 3000ft ahead is as unlikely as doing the same should it be flying overhead at 3000ft. Turning RT into a chat room is a disease of our time and there can be no end of it. The advantage if required of knowing the type is perhaps with ATC who can employ binoculars to look out the window.
Joining correctly, flying an accurate circuit pattern and a thorough LOOK OUT is where the effort should be.
Joining correctly, flying an accurate circuit pattern and a thorough LOOK OUT is where the effort should be.
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I use whatever ATC call me.
When changing frequency, carefully note what the other party calls you. For example I could depart my homefield and call "xxx traffic, OO-G86 leaving the circuit and the frequency, expect back in two hours, OO-G86", then switch to Brussels info "Brussels Indo, from the Oscar Oscar Golf eight six" and they might reply "Oscar eight six, Brussels Info" and I was O86 for the rest of the conversation.
Note that on your homefield it may matter little, most other pilots will know you anyway and you will know most of them, including the sound of voice, the difference in voice when annoyed or amused, and also the type of plane and its typical usage. For example, when at my homefield I heard Whiskey-8-3** calling, I knew it was the ultralight that the club used for elementary training.
* with the detail note that it is not limited to ATC, it applies to any ground station, be it Control or Info or Tower or whatever.
** identity changed for reasons of privacy
I think it's logical move; there's already several modes of 'abbreviated' callsigns and this would make it, as has been said, more obvious to the ATCO, FISO or Radio Operator.
I'm no longer a member of the UK Phraseology Working Group (which decides what goes into CAP413) and as far as I'm aware, AOPA don't sit on the group (maybe they should), so it needs someone who does sit on the PWG to introduce it for discussion so the best I can suggest without further research is e-mail [email protected]
I'm no longer a member of the UK Phraseology Working Group (which decides what goes into CAP413) and as far as I'm aware, AOPA don't sit on the group (maybe they should), so it needs someone who does sit on the PWG to introduce it for discussion so the best I can suggest without further research is e-mail [email protected]
I'd be absolutely fine with being "Warrior Golf India Juliet". If I'm in the States I'm Skyhawk 9550G abbreviated to Skyhawk 50G (does anybody know how I can say that without it sounding like "Five Zulu Golf" [which in the past has failed to open my flight plan] or do I just keep saying just saying "Fifty Golf" ?).
Must admit it has never occurred to me before in the UK to say the aircraft type, other than on first call ..... "Redhill G-BUIJ; PA-28 at hangar 8 ... . "
Must admit it has never occurred to me before in the UK to say the aircraft type, other than on first call ..... "Redhill G-BUIJ; PA-28 at hangar 8 ... . "
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In USA giving the aircraft type in the initial call saves the otherwise inevitable "Say aircraft type".
My situation awareness is greatly enhanced by knowing what aircraft types are in, or joining, the traffic pattern (circuit if you prefer). Where I fly it's quite common to have a mix that includes business jets, L-39 Albatros, Tucano, Archers, Warriors, Seminoles, and occassionally a B-17, B-25, or B-29.
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Thanks for all the input PPRuNers, and ETOPS I REALLY like the colour point. Fl1ingfrog, Why? Well, firstly the ‘Golf’ part is completely superfluous and a waste of bandwidth (indeed, there could easily be another ‘Golf Charlie Delta’ on frequency) and secondly, if you’re looking for traffic that you’ve heard, and you see something where you think that thing should be, you will assume that what you’re looking at is what you think you’re looking at. That’s human nature. However, if you heard ‘Warrior Charlie Delta’ but the machine you’re looking at has a high wing or rotary wing, you can be fairly confident that you’ve not yet ascertained the location of Warrior Charlie Delta! I do accept type specific may not be the best way though. Maybe "yellow Piper" or "blue heli" is better? EXDAC - again, agreed. G-CD tells you very little. Jet-CD, a great deal more. Glider -CD tells you its not going to go around, Microlight -CD, no more than 60-ish on final, Autogyro-CD, steep approach, very short ground roll, slow to taxi clear.
What about when you fly an experimental type that is not mainstream? "Waiex on downwind for 30" - most don't know what that is. I could say "Silver mini-bonanza that is sort of like a slow RV6" but that gets wordy for me. Even with a generic "experimental 1YX" people know where to look and that I'm not a Cessna, Piper, or the like. Still better than the guys with no radio.
Transport Canada recommends identifying the aircraft type on initial contact:
Note that the initial "Charlie" (for Canada) is never used in a callsign. When flying a Canadian aircraft in the US, the same callsign is used, prefixed by "Canadian".
In 2017, when I flew down to the uncontrolled Converse County Airport, near Douglas Wyoming, to view the total solar eclipse, a couple of hundred aircraft arrived in the morning or the day before and then departed in the afternoon.
Call signs were very pragmatic - nobody used their registration - it was "Red High Wing", "Blue Low Wing", "Green and White Twin", etc. and it all worked very efficiently.
Note that the initial "Charlie" (for Canada) is never used in a callsign. When flying a Canadian aircraft in the US, the same callsign is used, prefixed by "Canadian".
In 2017, when I flew down to the uncontrolled Converse County Airport, near Douglas Wyoming, to view the total solar eclipse, a couple of hundred aircraft arrived in the morning or the day before and then departed in the afternoon.
Call signs were very pragmatic - nobody used their registration - it was "Red High Wing", "Blue Low Wing", "Green and White Twin", etc. and it all worked very efficiently.
After my meetings there, I started up, and called for taxi - being given what to me were rather non-standard instructions, but fine, I continued to follow them until being asked to cross some rather rough grass to the centre of the runway - very odd. Then it dawned simultaneously on me and the controller that they'd heard "Bolkow" and assumed I was a helicopter. All sorted out politely enough, but ever since when I declare my type anywhere but my home airfield I am always "Bolkow 209 AEROPLANE". The extra word hopefully solves any future difficulties, and so far this appears to have worked.
G
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Surely accurate position calls are the most important element here. Not sure I'd be too confident in my fellow pilots aircraft recognition - they might be able to tell a Cherokee from a Cessna but wouldn't have a clue what an Archer or a Warrior is. Isn't this just adding complexity and becoming a potential distraction.
We also seem to be confusing what we say on initial contact with a controller with the calls we make in the circuit
We also seem to be confusing what we say on initial contact with a controller with the calls we make in the circuit
In 2017, when I flew down to the uncontrolled Converse County Airport, near Douglas Wyoming, to view the total solar eclipse, a couple of hundred aircraft arrived in the morning or the day before and then departed in the afternoon.
Call signs were very pragmatic - nobody used their registration - it was "Red High Wing", "Blue Low Wing", "Green and White Twin", etc. and it all worked very efficiently.
Call signs were very pragmatic - nobody used their registration - it was "Red High Wing", "Blue Low Wing", "Green and White Twin", etc. and it all worked very efficiently.
I had an amusing, but potentially problematic incident a couple of years ago when I was flying my Bo209 Monsun to Biggin Hill. I usually referred to the aeroplane as a "Bolkow 209" when introducing myself to ATC, which is of-course what it is.
After my meetings there, I started up, and called for taxi - being given what to me were rather non-standard instructions, but fine, I continued to follow them until being asked to cross some rather rough grass to the centre of the runway - very odd. Then it dawned simultaneously on me and the controller that they'd heard "Bolkow" and assumed I was a helicopter. All sorted out politely enough, but ever since when I declare my type anywhere but my home airfield I am always "Bolkow 209 AEROPLANE". The extra word hopefully solves any future difficulties, and so far this appears to have worked.
After my meetings there, I started up, and called for taxi - being given what to me were rather non-standard instructions, but fine, I continued to follow them until being asked to cross some rather rough grass to the centre of the runway - very odd. Then it dawned simultaneously on me and the controller that they'd heard "Bolkow" and assumed I was a helicopter. All sorted out politely enough, but ever since when I declare my type anywhere but my home airfield I am always "Bolkow 209 AEROPLANE". The extra word hopefully solves any future difficulties, and so far this appears to have worked.
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the thoughts so far PPRuNers. Excellent points well made Genghis, Chevron, IFMU and Biscuit, maybe "yellow Piper" or "blue heli" is the way to go?
Abrahn, the DG400 pilot would of course call "motorglider CD". It would be ridiculous to call 'Ventus' or 'Discus', all modern single seat sailplanes are essentially indistinguishable at any range.
My primary point is that IMHO "Golf" does literally nothing, and yet everyone uses it.
Abrahn, the DG400 pilot would of course call "motorglider CD". It would be ridiculous to call 'Ventus' or 'Discus', all modern single seat sailplanes are essentially indistinguishable at any range.
My primary point is that IMHO "Golf" does literally nothing, and yet everyone uses it.
My view is that the main advantage of this would be in a situation where a lot of dissimilar types mix. If you're on a GA field with a lot of Cessnas and Pipers flitting about I'm not sure it will add a lot beyond the opportunity for a bit more confusion on the radio. My flying is often on a field with a lot of the abovementioned types, added to which are some Diamonds and the odd AT-3 or others, almost all of which are painted white or mostly white. When slotting into the circuit the colour or type is not always going to be a lot of help and sometimes I just check that there are two in front when I'm positioned as no.3 in the que. Helicopters and slow-movers use either a separate circuit or are discouraged from visiting.... so perhaps this field is not the best example here.
'Call Stansted Radar two zero six two five.'
Last edited by Discorde; 6th Sep 2023 at 13:08. Reason: spelling correction