Enhancing SA with type-specific call signs
Thread Starter
" until the first non-G enters the frequency." I'm astonished that I have to point out that IMHO any non-G in a G-reg environment should obviously call Delta or Foxtrot or whatever. I did rather assume that was blindingly obvious.........
Thread Starter
The last specific question you asked me was "So are we also inserting an encyclopaedic knowledge of the Cessna product catalogue past and present into the licence syllabus?" I replied "I don't think you need an encyclopaedic knowledge of anything to tell the difference between a white Cessna and a red Piper.
The point of starting this thread was to canvas opinion, my personal primary point is that "Golf" does literally nothing, and yet everyone uses it. Unlike far too many in aviation, I'm very much open to changing my mind, and will always question why things are done. It comes with my job. Initially I thought "Skyhawk CD" might be useful (and it irrefutably is more useful than G-CD) but reading the responses of some experienced aviators on here I now think "white Cessna CD" is better. The funniest response so far was that we say Golf, and should continue to say Golf, because its a 'convention'.
The point of starting this thread was to canvas opinion, my personal primary point is that "Golf" does literally nothing, and yet everyone uses it. Unlike far too many in aviation, I'm very much open to changing my mind, and will always question why things are done. It comes with my job. Initially I thought "Skyhawk CD" might be useful (and it irrefutably is more useful than G-CD) but reading the responses of some experienced aviators on here I now think "white Cessna CD" is better. The funniest response so far was that we say Golf, and should continue to say Golf, because its a 'convention'.
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We say Golf, and should continue to say Golf, because it’s a 'convention'.
Thread Starter
"Because it related to international air transport the ICAO call sign standard includes the nationality character(s)." Errrrr, Jim59, when a United Airlines 777 is approaching Heathrow (or indeed, anywhere) you surely don't believe that their callsign is "November Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta" do you? Because it most definitely is not. Nor do the pilots include any aspect of "the nationality character(s)" - they would call "United 123 Heavy" (or similar). Conventions, eh? Who knew?
Last edited by DaveUnwin; 13th Sep 2023 at 15:20.
No point at all. One swallow doesn't make spring, and one example doesn't make a general rule.
See here for just one counter-example. I bet I could find many many more.
See here for just one counter-example. I bet I could find many many more.
Thread Starter
I think ETOPS point was referring to the previous (and spurious) claim re the state expecting ICAO conventions to be mandatory, when (for the reasons both ETOPS and I have demonstrated quite clearly) they aren't. Hope this helps.
Your original comment was
My point is that most GA pilots hearing "Warrior Charlie Delta" or “Skylane Charlie Delta” would go "What the f*** is he on about" - what we want is clarity rather than confusion
What if there are two Microlights in the circuit? You still don't know you are looking at the right one.
in my most recent column I opined that situational awareness in the circuit would be enhanced if pilots used “Warrior Charlie Delta or “Skylane Charlie Delta” rather than “Golf Charlie Delta.
I think its more that if I heard Microlight CD and could only see a helicopter I would keep looking whereas if I heard G-CD and saw a flying machine I would assume that was G-CD. That’s the point some people refuse to accept. There’s some interesting points being raised which I like but I will always contend that Golf adds nothing when every other aircraft on freq is also calling Golf! All IMHO of course
Thread Starter
No, but if there's two microlights, a motor glider and a helicopter you've narrowed it down. If all four aircraft call "Golf" you're literally none the wiser, are you? Perhaps just accept this is a point some people simply refuse to accept, and you're one of them? Its been my experience, that in a REALLY busy mixed use circuit it helps - which is why I like it. What do you fly, BTW?
But when LHR hear the call "United 123". he has a flight plan, LHR have the detail and there is a squawk on Radar. Not too difficult to confuse.
I am quite happy that if I rock up at Goodwood and say "Goodwood; good morning BUIK" and they say "IK pass your message" and I say "green PA-28 IK inbound to land" that makes everybody's life just that smidgin easier.
I am quite happy that if I rock up at Goodwood and say "Goodwood; good morning BUIK" and they say "IK pass your message" and I say "green PA-28 IK inbound to land" that makes everybody's life just that smidgin easier.
Thread Starter
"But when LHR hear the call "United 123". he has a flight plan, LHR have the detail and there is a squawk on Radar. Not too difficult to confuse."
Thread Starter
Four aircraft are in an uncontrolled circuit. One calls "Golf Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta" the next "Golf Bravo Charlie Delta Alpha, the next "Golf Charlie Delta Alpha Bravo the last "Golf Delta Alpha Bravo Charlie". How do you know which one is which? Now, there are another four aircraft in another uncontrolled circuit. One calls "Yellow Cub Charlie Delta", the next "blue biplane Charlie Delta, the next "helicopter Charlie Delta" and the last "Spitfire Charlie Delta" Now you know exactly which one is which, even though they have very similar registrations. I don't think I can make it any clearer.
Last edited by DaveUnwin; 4th Oct 2023 at 21:20. Reason: Typos!
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There's a Youtuber called Dan Gryder. Not everyone likes him but he's recently done some stuff on this subject. His big thing is instead of people just making announcements, even using Dave's examples above, ask questions of the other pilots i.e.
"blue biplane Charlie Delta, from yellow cub Charlie Delta are you about to turn final?"
"no, not yet, I see you at the hold, you've time to depart"
Check out his video flying a Cherokee, lots of good APQ stuff in it.
We talk to each other in the circuit quite a lot, like that. Dan's point is that asking questions greatly increases the chance of getting meaningful information, rather than just " blue biplane Charlie Delta downwind".
TOO
"blue biplane Charlie Delta, from yellow cub Charlie Delta are you about to turn final?"
"no, not yet, I see you at the hold, you've time to depart"
Check out his video flying a Cherokee, lots of good APQ stuff in it.
We talk to each other in the circuit quite a lot, like that. Dan's point is that asking questions greatly increases the chance of getting meaningful information, rather than just " blue biplane Charlie Delta downwind".
TOO
On a similar topic, another 'waste of bandwidth' is the superfluous 'one' when saying VHF frequencies, and possibly the 'decimal' too, especially since the cumbersome 8.33 frequencies added extra digits. Example of simplified RT:
'Call Stansted Radar two zero six two five.'
'Call Stansted Radar two zero six two five.'
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"blue biplane Charlie Delta, from yellow cub Charlie Delta are you about to turn final?"
"no, not yet, I see you at the hold, you've time to depart"
"no, not yet, I see you at the hold, you've time to depart"
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the feedback. GASCo's Editorial Office is still receiving letters, emails and even the odd phone call - which is great, plus the debate here. I've managed to condense some of the mail down to two pages in the current Flight Safety Magazine, and have enjoyed reading every single one. In a nutshell, experienced pilots, those based at uncontrolled airfields and farm strip flyers can all see how flight safety and situational awareness are enhanced by calling "blue biplane Charlie Delta" not "Golf Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta". Inexperienced pilots and those who fly from controlled fields seem to struggle with the concept.
