Enhancing SA with type-specific call signs
The CAA mandates the use of 'pass your message' instead of 'go ahead' in order to prevent unwanted incursions.
Last edited by chevvron; 9th Sep 2023 at 07:46.
"Hasselt radio, OOG86 leaving the circuit and the frequency, expect back in two hours"
I would expect in accordance with ICAO; "Hasselt Radio, 00G86 departing the circuit to the East changing frequency to Brussels Information." then "Brussels Information this is OOG86 (use full callsign) departing Hasselt Keiwit VFR, negative transponder". Brussels response when they are ready to hear you will be; "OOG86 pass your message." At this point and not before you then pass your type and full routing details.
Leave out ambiguous words "just" [unnecessary] and the inappropriate "leaving" [use changing frequency], confirming that you will tell them when leaving the frequency is superfluous because that is the rule anyway. The response therefore to Brussels info simply needs to be; "roger, regional QNH 1015, OOG86.
Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 9th Sep 2023 at 07:50.
ICAO standard phrases and pronunciation is not intended to be rigid but can be important in a noisy environment and when English is a second language,
I would expect in accordance with ICAO; "Hasselt Radio, 00G86 departing the circuit to the East changing frequency to Brussels Information." then "Brussels Information this is OOG86 (use full callsign) departing Hasselt Keiwit VFR, negative transponder". Brussels response when they are ready to hear you will be; "OOG86 pass your message." At this point and not before you then pass your type and full routing details.
Leave out ambiguous words "just" [unnecessary] and the inappropriate "leaving" [use changing frequency], confirming that you will tell them when leaving the frequency is superfluous because that is the rule anyway. The response therefore to Brussels info simply needs to be; "roger, regional QNH 1015, OOG86.
I would expect in accordance with ICAO; "Hasselt Radio, 00G86 departing the circuit to the East changing frequency to Brussels Information." then "Brussels Information this is OOG86 (use full callsign) departing Hasselt Keiwit VFR, negative transponder". Brussels response when they are ready to hear you will be; "OOG86 pass your message." At this point and not before you then pass your type and full routing details.
Leave out ambiguous words "just" [unnecessary] and the inappropriate "leaving" [use changing frequency], confirming that you will tell them when leaving the frequency is superfluous because that is the rule anyway. The response therefore to Brussels info simply needs to be; "roger, regional QNH 1015, OOG86.
All that may be very correct from the theory books, Mr Professor, I am telling what I did and what I heard everybody else do, and what I was recommended to do, and never received complaints about.
More specifically, when Brussels Info initially replied "OOG86, Brussels Info" this included an implicit "go ahead" or "pass your message" or whatever. This was confirmed to me from several sides, including writing in the UL-pilots federation periodical.
NB I fail to see where or how your "this is" is better than or superior to "from the". Both not really necessary, both two syllables.
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...and another one.
Wrong phrase: 'repeat'
Correct phrase: 'say again'
I'm told by friends who served in the British Army that the term 'repeat' is an artillery expression meaning 'put another shell where you put the last one'.
TOO
Wrong phrase: 'repeat'
Correct phrase: 'say again'
I'm told by friends who served in the British Army that the term 'repeat' is an artillery expression meaning 'put another shell where you put the last one'.
TOO
Thread Starter
I think that some of you are thinking purely about proper ATC, where the traffic is controlled. At an uncontrolled field (FISO or A/G) or farm strip, "blue biplane CD" tells every other pilot in the vicinity that you're in a blue biplane. G-CD tells everyone you're in a G-registered aircraft. Could be an aeroplane, helicopter, balloon, flexwing, motor glider, airship, microlight, autogyro........Will the naysayers accept this not un-trivial point? Otherwise we're just going round in circles. It is also possible that you cannot see the advantages because you have never operated in a very busy, uncontrolled environment.
In North America including the type is SOP. There have been numerous occasions at uncontrolled airports when knowing the type has avoided a potential conflict as I realized the aircraft I was looking at was not the one I thought it was. I find the level of RT pedantry in the UK quite amazing but I suppose it doesn't matter much anymore since there isn't very much recreational aviation left in the UK.
One of my favorite RT exchanges. I was flying in the Yukon monitoring the Whitehorse Flight Service frequency when I heard the following exchange
-Whitehorse radio 180 ( ie Cessna 180) ABC
- Whitehorse radio, Hi Bob
- Hiyah Jack, hey I need my flight plan extended by 30 minutes I have to do a quick stop at Tea Cup lake
- Whitehorse radio... UHHH where's the lake again
- It's at the West end of trapper Browns trapline
- Whitehorse radio, Ahh got it, ABC check your VFR flight plan is amended to include your extra stop and 30 minute extension
- Great thanks, ABC
One of my favorite RT exchanges. I was flying in the Yukon monitoring the Whitehorse Flight Service frequency when I heard the following exchange
-Whitehorse radio 180 ( ie Cessna 180) ABC
- Whitehorse radio, Hi Bob
- Hiyah Jack, hey I need my flight plan extended by 30 minutes I have to do a quick stop at Tea Cup lake
- Whitehorse radio... UHHH where's the lake again
- It's at the West end of trapper Browns trapline
- Whitehorse radio, Ahh got it, ABC check your VFR flight plan is amended to include your extra stop and 30 minute extension
- Great thanks, ABC
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Returning to Inverness, back when the oil dispersant DC3s were based there:
ATC: "Are you visual with the Dakota on final?"
Me: "GWF Affirm"
ATC: "Position behind it. Report final."
A few days later, checked out on Pa28 and returning to Grand Junction, Colorado. I've been told to extend downwind, and am expecting to follow a Piper single on final.
ATC: "Are you visual with Dakota on short final?"
Me: "Negative. All I can see is a Piper single." (Startled voice.)
ATC: "Position behind it." (Patient voice.)
ATC: "Are you visual with the Dakota on final?"
Me: "GWF Affirm"
ATC: "Position behind it. Report final."
A few days later, checked out on Pa28 and returning to Grand Junction, Colorado. I've been told to extend downwind, and am expecting to follow a Piper single on final.
ATC: "Are you visual with Dakota on short final?"
Me: "Negative. All I can see is a Piper single." (Startled voice.)
ATC: "Position behind it." (Patient voice.)
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Gnome de PPRuNe
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And the retractable variant too!
Going back to Dave's point. I have operated in busy uncontrolled airspace and I can see that there might be an advantage to using the 'blue bipland CD' callsign, but I wonder whether the hassle of moving over to this style of callsign will be worth it. Some things are different at uncontrolled fields (RT wise) and every little thing that you need to change (compared to controlled airspace) is something that can cause misunderstandings or can go wrong. Moving over entirely to a type/registration style callsign is quite an operation.
Edited to add: I think it's the unfamiliar types with non-normal traffic circuit speeds (compared to the rest of the flock) that would have the most to gain from this change. I can't see a system where these types use a different callsign from the rest of the traffic though, so you'd need to change it for everyone. It's certainly worth investigating, but I fear that the gains will be overshadowed by the challenge of changing this bit of RT phraseology.
Going back to Dave's point. I have operated in busy uncontrolled airspace and I can see that there might be an advantage to using the 'blue bipland CD' callsign, but I wonder whether the hassle of moving over to this style of callsign will be worth it. Some things are different at uncontrolled fields (RT wise) and every little thing that you need to change (compared to controlled airspace) is something that can cause misunderstandings or can go wrong. Moving over entirely to a type/registration style callsign is quite an operation.
Edited to add: I think it's the unfamiliar types with non-normal traffic circuit speeds (compared to the rest of the flock) that would have the most to gain from this change. I can't see a system where these types use a different callsign from the rest of the traffic though, so you'd need to change it for everyone. It's certainly worth investigating, but I fear that the gains will be overshadowed by the challenge of changing this bit of RT phraseology.
I think that some of you are thinking purely about proper ATC, where the traffic is controlled. At an uncontrolled field (FISO or A/G) or farm strip, "blue biplane CD" tells every other pilot in the vicinity that you're in a blue biplane. G-CD tells everyone you're in a G-registered aircraft. Could be an aeroplane, helicopter, balloon, flexwing, motor glider, airship, microlight, autogyro........Will the naysayers accept this not un-trivial point? Otherwise we're just going round in circles. It is also possible that you cannot see the advantages because you have never operated in a very busy, uncontrolled environment.
Thread Starter
Well, SWBKCB, if I heard "Microlight CD" and saw a white Cessna I'd keep looking, as Cessna don't make microlights. If I heard "white PA28 CD" and saw a white high wing I'd keep looking, as PA28s have low wings. If I heard "Golf CD" I'd - sorry, what was your point again? In fact, if it was busy, and I could see an aeroplane, helicopter, flexwing, motor glider, microlight, and autogyro, can you please explain how I'd know which one was "Golf CD"?
But most people think a microlight is a flexwing, not a C42
My point is that aircraft type is a distraction - as I think you've just demonstrated - and what should stressed is accurate position calls.
My point is that aircraft type is a distraction - as I think you've just demonstrated - and what should stressed is accurate position calls.
Thread Starter
"But most people think a microlight is a flexwing, not a C42"
Thread Starter
I don't think you need an encyclopaedic knowledge of anything to tell the difference between a white Cessna and a red Piper. Incidentally, earlier on you said "I am going to comment outside of my area of competence here" so I must ask (having been caught out on PPRuNe before), are you actually a pilot?
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hi Dave,
OK, OK, yes, I concede a bit that some more information to sort out whom was whom might be an advantage. But we would still need some form of discipline to get the apples and oranges sorted out.
Maoraigh1's example above is spot-on.
Our licensed engineer who ferries lots of types only ever calls 'light single' and insists that's enough!
When instructing, we tell our local LARS that we are a PA28, invariably they tell other traffic that we are a Cherokee - that's fine with me.
Slightly on the downside, our local military refer to a 'Merlin' or 'Avenger' which doesn't help very much, I happen to know that a Merlin is a 16 tonne helicopter and an Avenger is a Beechcraft King Air 350 but not all our visitors might know that.
Today at our aerodrome we had a flexwing microlight, a fixwing microlight, a PA28, a RV6A and a CAP10.
All of these present a dark silhouette so I don't think colour is going to help, much, but the CAP10 is very distinctive (and beautiful, as well)
I'll give you 'microlight' and 'rotary' but otherwise I'm with our engineer.
TOO
OK, OK, yes, I concede a bit that some more information to sort out whom was whom might be an advantage. But we would still need some form of discipline to get the apples and oranges sorted out.
Maoraigh1's example above is spot-on.
Our licensed engineer who ferries lots of types only ever calls 'light single' and insists that's enough!
When instructing, we tell our local LARS that we are a PA28, invariably they tell other traffic that we are a Cherokee - that's fine with me.
Slightly on the downside, our local military refer to a 'Merlin' or 'Avenger' which doesn't help very much, I happen to know that a Merlin is a 16 tonne helicopter and an Avenger is a Beechcraft King Air 350 but not all our visitors might know that.
Today at our aerodrome we had a flexwing microlight, a fixwing microlight, a PA28, a RV6A and a CAP10.
All of these present a dark silhouette so I don't think colour is going to help, much, but the CAP10 is very distinctive (and beautiful, as well)
I'll give you 'microlight' and 'rotary' but otherwise I'm with our engineer.
TOO
What would you be looking for if somebody was calling "Microlight CD" - if you saw a white high wing a/c would you think it was that? Surely standardisation in radio terminology is meant to reduce confusion and this just seems to be introducing an additional factor for confusion.
e.g.based on a local airfield, you could have "Sleepy Airfield, White Cirrus CD downwind left hand 25" and then "Sleepy Airfield White Sirius DC downwind left hand 25". I think most people would go WTF!
How many people know what an Escapade looks like? Savannah? Tecnam (we have low wing and high wing examples near us)
e.g.based on a local airfield, you could have "Sleepy Airfield, White Cirrus CD downwind left hand 25" and then "Sleepy Airfield White Sirius DC downwind left hand 25". I think most people would go WTF!
How many people know what an Escapade looks like? Savannah? Tecnam (we have low wing and high wing examples near us)
Thread Starter
I think its more that if I heard Microlight CD and could only see a helicopter I would keep looking whereas if I heard G-CD and saw a flying machine I would assume that was G-CD. That’s the point some people refuse to accept. There’s some interesting points being raised which I like but I will always contend that Golf adds nothing when every other aircraft on freq is also calling Golf! All IMHO of course
I grudgingly agree that "helicopter" could be a valuable because meaningful prefix. All the rest is ear-candy.
As for the "G" adding nothing, that is true until the first non-G enters the frequency. Perhaps not very common in UK, still less unlikely than any plane in US airspace not being November whatever. That said, on my local frequency I often was just "Golf eight six".
As for the "G" adding nothing, that is true until the first non-G enters the frequency. Perhaps not very common in UK, still less unlikely than any plane in US airspace not being November whatever. That said, on my local frequency I often was just "Golf eight six".