Enhancing SA with type-specific call signs
Gnome de PPRuNe
Dave, think it is a good idea in general, made sense when I've heard it used in the US.
Both the above are only 'marginal' for ICAO purposes; I don't think SARG will contemplate abbreviation to that extent although I know the FAA allow it in the USA but then the USA is often non ICAO.
Last edited by chevvron; 6th Sep 2023 at 23:32.
My primary point is that IMHO "Golf" does literally nothing, and yet everyone uses it.
Change the system OK but don't expect to change things of consequence. A lot of fiddling around with little or no gain. In all the incidence that I've debriefed over the years I cannot recall a single incidence where a specific call sign would have made any difference. Failing to fly an accurate circuit, a good look out and a failure to adjust speed to the circuit norms cover most incidents. NEVER assume your number 2 or 3 or 4 unless the circuit is managed by a qualified ATC.
Thread Starter
Fl1ingfrog it is self evident that Foxtrot CD or Delta CD would indicate a foreign-based aircraft, intel that is well worth knowing as the pilot may well be unfamiliar with nonsense such as QFE. But what does Golf actually add when the G-reg aircraft is within the UK?
(does anybody know how I can say that without it sounding like "Five Zulu Golf" [which in the past has failed to open my flight plan] or do I just keep saying just saying "Fifty Golf" ?).
There is a reason why we are supposed to say "niner" and not "nine", it helps avoiding confusion with five. I always made a point of rolling the r in niner strongly. The letter "r" is not the most difficult to understand, but it wants - and leaves much room for - clear pronounciation.
And in no case should you use "fifty" that's a game-stopper imho. I can imagine some controllers in Europe - given time and patience - would continue with "aircraft calling, please confirm registration" until you dropped the "50". "FIVE-ZERRROOHHH" will do fine.
On a general note: the controller who wants to know my aircraft type can look it up easily enough, no need to confirm it over the radio, purely waste of time and bandwidth.
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 6th Sep 2023 at 20:35.
On a general note: the controller who wants to know my aircraft type can look it up easily enough, no need to confirm it over the radio, purely waste of time and bandwidth.
On a similar topic, another 'waste of bandwidth' is the superfluous 'one' when saying VHF frequencies, and possibly the 'decimal' too, especially since the cumbersome 8.33 frequencies added extra digits. Example of simplified RT:
'Call Stansted Radar two zero six two five.'
'Call Stansted Radar two zero six two five.'
In my radio training, being "terse" was again and again stressed as being important, and I never heard anyone saying the contrary.
And yes, on a sunny weekend day, a frequency like Brussels info is really busy so keeping comm's short is a way of being gentle to the operator (not a "controller" mind you).
And yes, on a sunny weekend day, a frequency like Brussels info is really busy so keeping comm's short is a way of being gentle to the operator (not a "controller" mind you).
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But what does Golf actually add when the G-reg aircraft is within the UK?
Try rrrrrolling the r as if you were Scots or Welsh - or roll it on the back of your tongue, as if you were French.
Thread Starter
"Nothing very much really but as with many things it is simply a convention."
Last edited by DaveUnwin; 6th Sep 2023 at 22:52.
Dave.
Another couple of points to reduce unnecessary clutter on a busy frequency.
1. Many aircraft, especially training aircraft, always seem to call for a Radio Check prior to passing their details for each and every flight. Why? The aircraft may have already flown half a dozen times already and if there is a problem then they will soon be told. Whilst the procedure is itemised in CAP 413 it is not listed as a required call prior to taxiing. Imagine every aircraft at Heathrow making this call!
2. Calling “runway vacated” after every landing. CAP 413 clearly states that this can be omitted if the “controller” can see if an aircraft has vacated. So why call it?
At a busy airfield, with 250 movements a day, these superfluous calls and responses can add up to 500 unnecessary transmissions each day.
Another couple of points to reduce unnecessary clutter on a busy frequency.
1. Many aircraft, especially training aircraft, always seem to call for a Radio Check prior to passing their details for each and every flight. Why? The aircraft may have already flown half a dozen times already and if there is a problem then they will soon be told. Whilst the procedure is itemised in CAP 413 it is not listed as a required call prior to taxiing. Imagine every aircraft at Heathrow making this call!
2. Calling “runway vacated” after every landing. CAP 413 clearly states that this can be omitted if the “controller” can see if an aircraft has vacated. So why call it?
At a busy airfield, with 250 movements a day, these superfluous calls and responses can add up to 500 unnecessary transmissions each day.
Dave.
Another couple of points to reduce unnecessary clutter on a busy frequency.
1. Many aircraft, especially training aircraft, always seem to call for a Radio Check prior to passing their details for each and every flight. Why? The aircraft may have already flown half a dozen times already and if there is a problem then they will soon be told. Whilst the procedure is itemised in CAP 413 it is not listed as a required call prior to taxiing. Imagine every aircraft at Heathrow making this call!
Another couple of points to reduce unnecessary clutter on a busy frequency.
1. Many aircraft, especially training aircraft, always seem to call for a Radio Check prior to passing their details for each and every flight. Why? The aircraft may have already flown half a dozen times already and if there is a problem then they will soon be told. Whilst the procedure is itemised in CAP 413 it is not listed as a required call prior to taxiing. Imagine every aircraft at Heathrow making this call!
I've had this happen many times (usually when it's very busy) as ATCO, FISO and radio operator and at one airfield we specifically asked pilots not to do this; just make a call to establish 2-way then when the person on the ground replies ask them to pass their complete message or stand by.
Last edited by chevvron; 7th Sep 2023 at 14:46.
Many aircraft, especially training aircraft, always seem to call for a Radio Check prior to passing their details for each and every flight. Why? The aircraft may have already flown half a dozen times
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I am going to comment outside of my area of competence here, but I think it is possible that the "Golf" acts as a wake up word to the brain. There could be a whole load of stuff happening but your subconscious will pick out the "Golf" and know to start listening for the rest of the callsign just because you've heard it hundreds of times before and a particular cluster of neurons and synapses are trained for it.
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Thread drift alert!
Dave Unwin said:
Well, since I find myself disagreeing with most of what you've said, I thought I'd pick out the one thing I agree with!
As a re-qualified RT examiner, can I give the following:
I agree that the 'Golf' is a turn-on for 'expect a callsign'.
I also think that a plethora of people making up their own ideas of what to say to distinguish themselves from everyone else is a recipe for a lot of misunderstanding. The phraseology in CAP413 has been deliberated over by lots of people over the years and it's what we should be teaching and enforcing for the sake of standardisation and an enhancement of flight safety. ICAO Annex 10 phraseology was largely written around CAP413.
Oh and while we're at it, let's get rid of all this backsliding into 'go ahead' instead of 'pass your message'. The changes made after Tenerife were put in place for reasons given by several people above. I was working out on the airfield at Heathrow when we were handed a typewritten sheet with all the changes on it, no longer 'affirmative' or 'clear of 27 left' but 'affirm' and '27 left vacated'. However, there was one controller who got away with 'mess your passage' for about a month before the GM found out...
BTW, why 'pass your message? As discussed above, our 1940's vintage AM radio system is far from perfect and interruptions and interference abound. A critical ATC instruction is 'go around'. If only the 'go' part is heard, there could be a confusion so the ONLY time the word 'go' should be used in ANY context is in that safety critical message. There are many other examples of exclusive words.
TOO
Dave Unwin said:
as the pilot may well be unfamiliar with nonsense such as QFE
As a re-qualified RT examiner, can I give the following:
I agree that the 'Golf' is a turn-on for 'expect a callsign'.
I also think that a plethora of people making up their own ideas of what to say to distinguish themselves from everyone else is a recipe for a lot of misunderstanding. The phraseology in CAP413 has been deliberated over by lots of people over the years and it's what we should be teaching and enforcing for the sake of standardisation and an enhancement of flight safety. ICAO Annex 10 phraseology was largely written around CAP413.
Oh and while we're at it, let's get rid of all this backsliding into 'go ahead' instead of 'pass your message'. The changes made after Tenerife were put in place for reasons given by several people above. I was working out on the airfield at Heathrow when we were handed a typewritten sheet with all the changes on it, no longer 'affirmative' or 'clear of 27 left' but 'affirm' and '27 left vacated'. However, there was one controller who got away with 'mess your passage' for about a month before the GM found out...
BTW, why 'pass your message? As discussed above, our 1940's vintage AM radio system is far from perfect and interruptions and interference abound. A critical ATC instruction is 'go around'. If only the 'go' part is heard, there could be a confusion so the ONLY time the word 'go' should be used in ANY context is in that safety critical message. There are many other examples of exclusive words.
TOO
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why 'pass your message'?
"Hasselt radio, OOG86 leaving the circuit and the frequency, expect back in two hours"
(toggle frequency)
"Brussels information, from the OOG86"
"OOG86 Brussels information"
"Brussels information, goedemiddag mevrouw*, the OOG86 just airborne from Hasselt Kiewit for a local flight Hasselt-Hasselt via Diest, Aarschot, Westerlo. VFR 1500, negative transponder. OOG86.
"G86 be aware of paradropping near Diest. Regional QNH 1015"
"QNH1015, will report leaving your frequency, G86"
and that was extensive, at busy moments one would go even more terse.
* the local language greeting was an old tradition of courtesy, the first to be dropped if the frequency was very busy. You could hear people's background from their accent anyway, most of the time. And it was not relevant, anyway. All R/T in English only, to the surprise of the occasional French visitor.
What value "pass your message" could have added here is quite unclear to me.
NB from my registration/callsign, the Info operator could already tell I was flying an ultralight, so cruising at 100 knots or thereabouts. Many countries have such a system of registration (D-Mxxx is always a motorglider, for example), Germany certainly, Netherlands I think too, other countries I cannot say but there must be some. The UK not, of course, as far as I can tell.
