Northumbria UK TDA closes airstrips
GA or to put it in general terms the use of airspace for private aviation will soon become a hot potato not least because it’s seen as a playground for rich peoples toys.
Interesting discussion with Apian last night at Wansbeck hospital, with representation from a range of private flyers, model aircraft clubs, the glider guys from Currock Hill and a UAS operator from Hexham. Apian had a former military ATC leading and a doctor, and Zipline had no less than four people over from the US (including a former RAF Squadron Leader with plenty of drone experience...). Also the head of ATC from Newcastle was present
They tried to give the impression that it was not as done a deal as we might think,. They had been doing the rounds earlier - think they said they'd been to Hexham, Spadeadam and Eshott. Maybe others. They suggested that there maybe solutions for Stanton and Hexham by 'geofencing' them so they become no fly zones for the drones, but clearly much more needs to be done. This seems to be the answer for the model flying clubs, but of course far smaller areas involved.
From the private flyers angle, they were keen to know as much as possible about the impact - they weren't aware for example of the use of the coastal route or the importance of the Tyne Valley for routing East/West. It was made clear that the TDA's had the potential to block routes south and west except in good weather and that this needed to be addressed
Much discussion about 'the regulator'. Apian said that TDA's weren't their preferred solution, but that was all that was available. One of the purpose of the trial will be to to prove the effectiveness of the drones and that they can operate safely so that the TDA isn't needed (differerent concept of drone being used so the evidence from the first trial doesn't count!)
They tried to give the impression that it was not as done a deal as we might think,. They had been doing the rounds earlier - think they said they'd been to Hexham, Spadeadam and Eshott. Maybe others. They suggested that there maybe solutions for Stanton and Hexham by 'geofencing' them so they become no fly zones for the drones, but clearly much more needs to be done. This seems to be the answer for the model flying clubs, but of course far smaller areas involved.
From the private flyers angle, they were keen to know as much as possible about the impact - they weren't aware for example of the use of the coastal route or the importance of the Tyne Valley for routing East/West. It was made clear that the TDA's had the potential to block routes south and west except in good weather and that this needed to be addressed
Much discussion about 'the regulator'. Apian said that TDA's weren't their preferred solution, but that was all that was available. One of the purpose of the trial will be to to prove the effectiveness of the drones and that they can operate safely so that the TDA isn't needed (differerent concept of drone being used so the evidence from the first trial doesn't count!)
An enlightening meeting for me, in that l was surprised by the way that Apian had approached the task. Surely they would have been better informed by starting with visits to the affected sites before coming up with the proposed TDA. I found myself wondering if the aviation side being led by ex military ATC folk showed a lack of understanding of the implications for GA. What l also found telling ,was that one of the attendees who was a commercial drone operator seemed to be able to carry out his work without massive disruption to other airspace users. I also wondered if the Americans who were present had a real depth of understanding of the UK,s environment both operationally and practically. There seemed to me, a major problem with the way that the CAAs oversight of the project would be controlled, anyone with experience knows that the Notam system is both unwieldily and impractical to use in so many ways and dealing with the Authority can be challenging at the best of times!
Another major concern for the general public was the inability of the project leaders to quantify the actual costs of the project. There was lots of talk about the need to use taxis for urgent deliveries and how costly that was but l cannot believe that drones and the significant team to operate them 24/7 would provide a more effective solution. It was interesting to note that in one of the videos supporting the project , a nurse was saying how much quicker she could get her required medications delivered by drone but didn't, mention that the samples that determined the need would presumably have to go by surface transport to the test facility beforehand?? To sum up, l found myself wondering if this is a very expensive "Bigstick" to crack the nut in times when we are constantly being told by the politicians and the press that the Health Service is desperate for funds.
Another major concern for the general public was the inability of the project leaders to quantify the actual costs of the project. There was lots of talk about the need to use taxis for urgent deliveries and how costly that was but l cannot believe that drones and the significant team to operate them 24/7 would provide a more effective solution. It was interesting to note that in one of the videos supporting the project , a nurse was saying how much quicker she could get her required medications delivered by drone but didn't, mention that the samples that determined the need would presumably have to go by surface transport to the test facility beforehand?? To sum up, l found myself wondering if this is a very expensive "Bigstick" to crack the nut in times when we are constantly being told by the politicians and the press that the Health Service is desperate for funds.
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Thread Starter
I've long susupected that many involved in this new drone "industry" have had zero exposure to UK light aviation at the grass roots level - pun intended.
In previous announcements of delivery trials and TDAs exactly the same problems were pointed out regarding airstrips etc that were "unknown" to the drone operators.
When told that the UK has around 700 such sites they are always suprised. The offer of some famil flights in either a microlight or home built routing VFR between two airstrips might open their eyes...
In previous announcements of delivery trials and TDAs exactly the same problems were pointed out regarding airstrips etc that were "unknown" to the drone operators.
When told that the UK has around 700 such sites they are always suprised. The offer of some famil flights in either a microlight or home built routing VFR between two airstrips might open their eyes...
An enlightening meeting for me, in that l was surprised by the way that Apian had approached the task. Surely they would have been better informed by starting with visits to the affected sites before coming up with the proposed TDA.
I found myself wondering if the aviation side being led by ex military ATC folk showed a lack of understanding of the implications for GA.
What l also found telling ,was that one of the attendees who was a commercial drone operator seemed to be able to carry out his work without massive disruption to other airspace users. I also wondered if the Americans who were present had a real depth of understanding of the UK,s environment both operationally and practically.
There seemed to me, a major problem with the way that the CAAs oversight of the project would be controlled, anyone with experience knows that the Notam system is both unwieldily and impractical to use in so many ways and dealing with the Authority can be challenging at the best of times!
Another major concern for the general public was the inability of the project leaders to quantify the actual costs of the project. There was lots of talk about the need to use taxis for urgent deliveries and how costly that was but l cannot believe that drones and the significant team to operate them 24/7 would provide a more effective solution.
I've long susupected that many involved in this new drone "industry" have had zero exposure to UK light aviation at the grass roots level - pun intended.
In previous announcements of delivery trials and TDAs exactly the same problems were pointed out regarding airstrips etc that were "unknown" to the drone operators.
When told that the UK has around 700 such sites they are always suprised. The offer of some famil flights in either a microlight or home built routing VFR between two airstrips might open their eyes...
In previous announcements of delivery trials and TDAs exactly the same problems were pointed out regarding airstrips etc that were "unknown" to the drone operators.
When told that the UK has around 700 such sites they are always suprised. The offer of some famil flights in either a microlight or home built routing VFR between two airstrips might open their eyes...
Thread Starter
plus many 'occasionally' used
According to www.ukairfieldguide.net there are probably in excess of 1,000 in regular use plus many 'occasionally' used; they actually quote up to 6,500 flying sites but of course many of these are disused.
@ETOPS: as I am trying to compile and keep up a list of aviation terrains in Europe, as complete and up to date as can be managed, I'd be glad to check the field you are mentioning. Welcome to a PM with just the coordinates, more details (like "formal" name) useful. If not yet present, I might add the field both to ourairports.com and to openstreetmap.org.
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 27th Aug 2023 at 14:33.
Lots of waffle from the proponents it seems to prove they can fly a drone from A to B. Already proven so you do not need a trial to demonstrate the drone can fly from A to B
The only I repeat only reason for a trial must be to see if it is beneficial to the NHS. I see only 2 comments
The question is what do you put in taxis. In 30 plus years of medical work I see we put people and medical instruments in taxis. Humans are too big to fit in these drones and the instruments are solid metal in metal trays measuring 2-3 feet by 2 feet ie too big and heavy.
Nurse in hospitals get their medications from the hospital pharmacy. There is no purpose flying the drone from pharmacy on the ground floor to the ward on the first floor. Community nurses dont carry drugs because they go to patients' houses and ensure patients take the drugs they already have at home.
Sorry to sound like a worn record but there is no recurring and long term need to transport items between hospitals that can fit in drones and no need for any urgency. The NHS should be made to demonstrate need. No need, no disruption
The only I repeat only reason for a trial must be to see if it is beneficial to the NHS. I see only 2 comments
There was lots of talk about the need to use taxis for urgent deliveries and how costly that was
a nurse was saying how much quicker she could get her required medications delivered by drone
Sorry to sound like a worn record but there is no recurring and long term need to transport items between hospitals that can fit in drones and no need for any urgency. The NHS should be made to demonstrate need. No need, no disruption
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Apian Northumbria Airspace Restrictions StakeHolder Engagement - URGENT SURVEY UNTIL
A further consultation is taking place regarding the proposed Restricted Airspace request for Drone testing.
I personally do not agree with their application because West Wales already has designated dedicated drone testing areas operating from Aberporth Airport EGFA.
Designated Danger Areas D201A-K
I believe this is where the testing should take place and there is no need for further airspace restrictions for this purpose in the UK.
As a newbie to this forum, I can't post the link but the link is in the attached document.
Thanks
I personally do not agree with their application because West Wales already has designated dedicated drone testing areas operating from Aberporth Airport EGFA.
Designated Danger Areas D201A-K
I believe this is where the testing should take place and there is no need for further airspace restrictions for this purpose in the UK.
As a newbie to this forum, I can't post the link but the link is in the attached document.
Thanks
Gender Faculty Specialist
Lots of waffle from the proponents it seems to prove they can fly a drone from A to B. Already proven so you do not need a trial to demonstrate the drone can fly from A to B
The only I repeat only reason for a trial must be to see if it is beneficial to the NHS. I see only 2 comments
The question is what do you put in taxis. In 30 plus years of medical work I see we put people and medical instruments in taxis. Humans are too big to fit in these drones and the instruments are solid metal in metal trays measuring 2-3 feet by 2 feet ie too big and heavy.
Nurse in hospitals get their medications from the hospital pharmacy. There is no purpose flying the drone from pharmacy on the ground floor to the ward on the first floor. Community nurses dont carry drugs because they go to patients' houses and ensure patients take the drugs they already have at home.
Sorry to sound like a worn record but there is no recurring and long term need to transport items between hospitals that can fit in drones and no need for any urgency. The NHS should be made to demonstrate need. No need, no disruption
The only I repeat only reason for a trial must be to see if it is beneficial to the NHS. I see only 2 comments
The question is what do you put in taxis. In 30 plus years of medical work I see we put people and medical instruments in taxis. Humans are too big to fit in these drones and the instruments are solid metal in metal trays measuring 2-3 feet by 2 feet ie too big and heavy.
Nurse in hospitals get their medications from the hospital pharmacy. There is no purpose flying the drone from pharmacy on the ground floor to the ward on the first floor. Community nurses dont carry drugs because they go to patients' houses and ensure patients take the drugs they already have at home.
Sorry to sound like a worn record but there is no recurring and long term need to transport items between hospitals that can fit in drones and no need for any urgency. The NHS should be made to demonstrate need. No need, no disruption
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Given the westerlies this winter, a bike or van will beat a 50+ knot drone everytime (especially has they will go door to door). Having attended the presentations, the business case isn't very strong. Looks like a Trojan house to me.
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Gender Faculty Specialist
Deliveries also take place from Carlisle, Hexham, and various destinations to the north and south so it'll all average out.
Blood and plasma, both urgent and regular deliveries. Urgent samples. Urgent paperwork.
Samples? No, urgent samples are analysed in the individual hospital. Intensive care and operating theatres even have point of care machines that do the testing at the bedside. Other tests that need to go to a specialist centre may be important but can take days or weeks to analyse so a drone is irrelevant
Paperwork? The NHS is paperless. We are not allowed to use paper.
But lets see the MEDICAL results of the trials. What was conveyed and why? What benedit did a drone have in terms of capability, speed or cost? Remember this is not cost free to the NHS - they will have to provide staff, attend training, write protocols and operate the landing sites. Great fun for wanabee aviators but they are being paid by the taxpayer and often already falling short.
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