Enroute ATC question

[thomsonpop]

Hi All,
I could do with some practical advice, please.
Here's the scenario:
You've just changed frequency to an ATC unit to request a zone transit.
You give your callsign and state your request.
They respond "G-ABCD Squawk 1234 pass your message."

What do you do next?
1. Set the squawk then respond?
2. Respond "squawk 1234 G-ABCD" then set the squawk and then call them again with your message.
or
3. Try to set the squawk while passing your message and flying the aeroplane?
4. Pass your message then set the squawk once you've finished?

I am sure that when I was training for my PPL, ATC used to either ask you to pass your message OR give you a squawk and then call you back with your position and ask you to pass your message, not do it all in one call.

Thoughts please.

[flyme273]

Good question. Looking at this from the controller's perspective. The squawk code allows the controller to identify position. Once he knows the position, he can make sense of your further requests and can probably process the request "on line". The alternative requires more exchange of messages.

Therefore I would place priority on setting the squawk. Then continue with ATC. Even at the risk of another station interrupting the dialogue.

flyme

[TheOddOne]

I teach set the squawk first, then respond:
"G-ABCD squawk 1234
Cessna150 2 POB
Anytown to Anytown via Anywhere
Over YouKnowWhere
2,000' 1018
Request Basic Service
G-ABCD"

If you're using a modern Garmin transponder, setting the squawk is amazingly simple, a beautiful piece of kit.
If you're using a Trig, rather more of a faff but I've one student who is really good at it.
If you're using an old Bendix/King or Narco unit, good luck!

TOO

[thomsonpop]

Thanks for that. Yes, the Garmin makes it easy, but I am using a trig which is quite a faff when you've got your hands full of aeroplane and can take maybe 20 seconds to set a squawk. My concern is always that the controller will start to wonder if you have received their transmission while you fiddle with your transponder. But as you say, once the transponder is set, they have much of the information they need, especially if you are near controlled airspace.

[ETOPS]

My transponder is a TQ KTX2 mode S which works very well but is very fiddly to set. So having got the controllers full attention I pass my details as TOO suggests but set the squawk as soo as I stop transmitting. This hasn't been a problem as brevity in my RT means the ATC see my allocated code within seconds.

[thomsonpop]

Interesting. So there is definitely a difference of opinion among people as to whether to set the code first and then pass the message or pass the message and then set the code. I wonder if there are any controllers out there who have a preferred way of doing it?

[flyme273]

The Odd One. Your message format noted. My preference:-

Squawk 1234 Cessna 150 POB 2
EGXX 2,000 ft [option 1018] EGYY
present position
request basic service
G-CD

reason: "EGXX Altitude EGYY", follows IFR format for position reporting.

flyme

[Whopity]

Aviate
Navigate
Communicate

[2 sheds]

Not sure what that contributes, Whopity! Surely it's all about communication?

Thomsonpop - it would actually be better technique from ATC, of course, to invite you to pass your current flight plan details first, then consider whether and which code to assign.

2 s

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by thomsonpop

Hi All,
I could do with some practical advice, please.
Here's the scenario:
You've just changed frequency to an ATC unit to request a zone transit.
You give your callsign and state your request.
They respond "G-ABCD Squawk 1234 pass your message."

What do you do next?
1. Set the squawk then respond?
2. Respond "squawk 1234 G-ABCD" then set the squawk and then call them again with your message.
or
3. Try to set the squawk while passing your message and flying the aeroplane?
4. Pass your message then set the squawk once you've finished?

I am sure that when I was training for my PPL, ATC used to either ask you to pass your message OR give you a squawk and then call you back with your position and ask you to pass your message, not do it all in one call.

Thoughts please.

I think it is the controller who needs the practical advice, or, better still, some flying experience! This "G-ABCD Squawk 1234 pass your message" trend is not at all clever. If ATC insists on this untimely and clumsy practice, simply respond with "Standby", set the assigned SSR code, THEN pass your message. I agree with '2 sheds', i.e. it would be better to invite you to pass your current flight plan details first, THEN consider whether and which code to assign. It is likely that code assignment is not appropriate UNTIL the controller knows the purpose of that message, e.g one may simply be calling for a radio check or a pressure setting, neither of which would need a code assignment, untimely or otherwise. (I taught my ATC students not to assign their easily identifiable unit squawks until they had good reason to do so, i.e. treat it like lending money...!)

[2 sheds]

Spot on, Talkdownman - do we know each other, I wonder? And that is exactly what is illustrated in the RTF Manual.

2 s

[Jim59]

It is likely that code assignment is not appropriate UNTIL the controller knows the purpose of that message, e.g one may simply be calling for a radio check or a pressure setting, neither of which would need a code assignment,

The controller does know the purpose - the original poster stated:

Here's the scenario:
You've just changed frequency to an ATC unit to request a zone transit.
You give your callsign and state your request.

[2 sheds]

There are other considerations, Jim - e.g. is the aircraft within radar coverage, plus the point made by the OP about the practicality in the cockpit - and the RTF manual requirement.

2 s

[Fl1ingfrog]

If ATC insists on this untimely and clumsy practice, simply respond with "Standby", set the assigned SSR code, THEN pass your message.

Agree but don't forget you must readback squawks and then set it. This magical word "standby" is used extensively by ATC with good reason. I've always taught my pilot students to use it appropriately too. In the first call the convention is to pass in brief the essential information; "SOMEWHERE RADAR G-ABCD, VFR, request zone entry Topwood". This should allow ATC to assign an appropriate squawk.

[Jim59]

There are other considerations, Jim - e.g. is the aircraft within radar coverage,

Not necessarily. Non-radar units may still assign a squawk so other nearby radar units can see from where a particular aircraft is receiving a service.

[chevvron]

First call should be callsign only then wait; the controller will respond either 'pass your message' or 'standby'.

[2 sheds]

Originally Posted by Jim59

Not necessarily. Non-radar units may still assign a squawk so other nearby radar units can see from where a particular aircraft is receiving a service.

Yes, necessarily - in the context posed by the OP, it is a real consideration until the general position of the aircraft is known. It is also a matter of knowing where to look to obtain the identification by observing the code selection when it occurs - otherwise it is necessary to then use the ident feature.

Originally Posted by chevvron

First call should be callsign only then wait; the controller will respond either 'pass your message' or 'standby'.

Well, no - it should also include a brief request for the service required!

2 s

[chevvron]

Originally Posted by 2 sheds

Yes, necessarily - in the context posed by the OP, it is a real consideration until the general position of the aircraft is known. It is also a matter of knowing where to look to obtain the identification by observing the code selection when it occurs - otherwise it is necessary to then use the ident feature.


Well, no - it should also include a brief request for the service required!

2 s

You've obviously never operated Farnborough LARS.
And just a reminder; pilots must never operate the 'ident' unless specifically requested by the controller.

[2 sheds]

Originally Posted by chevvron

You've obviously never operated Farnborough LARS.
And just a reminder; pilots must never operate the 'ident' unless specifically requested by the controller.

No, I have not - and your point, relevant to the OP's original question about standard procedures, is...?
And...I don't think that I implied that a pilot should squawk ident without instruction, did I?

2 s

[chevvron]

Originally Posted by 2 sheds

No, I have not - and your point, relevant to the OP's original question about standard procedures, is...?
And...I don't think that I implied that a pilot should squawk ident without instruction, did I?

2 s

Sorry I wasn't getting at you personally about the use of 'Ident', as you will know a pilot should only activate it in response to a specific instruction by ATC whereas a lot of pilots (even ATPLs) do not do this.
On busy days, when operating as LARS, there would often be several aircraft waiting to make their initial calls; in these situations you cannot afford to wait while someone makes an initial call passing long winded details of their route etc when you may have someone on a TS or DS which you can see are going to get close to each other and you need to warn them about the situation urgently. For this reason, we always encouraged pilots just to make a initial call using callsign only and wait for the controller to respond.