Club checkout, P1 or PUT
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Cheshire
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Club checkout, P1 or PUT
OK, OK, Before I ask, I know this question has been asked to death...........But
The other day I turned up at a new flying club with a view to start renting one of their Warriors, a PA28 151.
As normal, I went out and had a 1hr 15min check flight as is normal for a new member.
Question is ..........Do I log it P1 or PUT ?
I asked the instructor and he told me it is PUT, but I'm not so sure .
I am current in every respect ( 90 day etc ) and have over 200hrs on Warriors.
The other day I turned up at a new flying club with a view to start renting one of their Warriors, a PA28 151.
As normal, I went out and had a 1hr 15min check flight as is normal for a new member.
Question is ..........Do I log it P1 or PUT ?
I asked the instructor and he told me it is PUT, but I'm not so sure .
I am current in every respect ( 90 day etc ) and have over 200hrs on Warriors.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
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LPL,
There can only be one captain at any one time. Therefore, if your instructor has logged P1, you must log PUT. If you log P1, your instructor can not log the flight. Either of these is valid, but it should be agreed between the two of you before the flight. It would be normal (in my experience) for your instructor to log P1 and you to log PUT, as your instructor said.
What is less clear is whether you can log PUS. There have been several lengthy debates on this subject on this forum in the year or so I've been around. I've read the CAAs documentation, and my conclusion is that it isn't at all clear whether you're allowed to log PUS in this case or not. There's nothing to specifically forbid it. However, the only time PUS is mentioned is in connection to a flight test. A club checkout is not a flight test, so my personal belief is that you're not allowed to log PUS for this flight. This interpretation seems to be shared by most, but not all, PPRuNers. Hence PUT is your only option.
Hope it's clear as mud after that!
FFF
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There can only be one captain at any one time. Therefore, if your instructor has logged P1, you must log PUT. If you log P1, your instructor can not log the flight. Either of these is valid, but it should be agreed between the two of you before the flight. It would be normal (in my experience) for your instructor to log P1 and you to log PUT, as your instructor said.
What is less clear is whether you can log PUS. There have been several lengthy debates on this subject on this forum in the year or so I've been around. I've read the CAAs documentation, and my conclusion is that it isn't at all clear whether you're allowed to log PUS in this case or not. There's nothing to specifically forbid it. However, the only time PUS is mentioned is in connection to a flight test. A club checkout is not a flight test, so my personal belief is that you're not allowed to log PUS for this flight. This interpretation seems to be shared by most, but not all, PPRuNers. Hence PUT is your only option.
Hope it's clear as mud after that!
FFF
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High Flying Bird
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I'd say the opposite 
... with the various instructors at my club, if you have a PPL, you're the captain, and therefore P1. Guess it depends on whether you've hour-building instructors or not 
... with the various instructors at my club, if you have a PPL, you're the captain, and therefore P1. Guess it depends on whether you've hour-building instructors or not
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I've always logged checkouts as P1, and never had a problem. My view is that if I am licenced to fly the plane as P1 then I should fly as P1. I am not under training (PuT) as no training is required. IMHO it is no different to a check ride if you join a group, which does not need to be with an instructor and therefore cannot be logged as anything but P1.
....and in either case described by BlueLine above, the FI would be the P1C Commander.
Since it's only P1C hours which matter, it doesn't really matter much what you log your check out as! But it WON'T be as P1C!!
Since it's only P1C hours which matter, it doesn't really matter much what you log your check out as! But it WON'T be as P1C!!
Join Date: Aug 2002
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LPL,
I would be more pragmatic.
Do you (at the moment) need one hour's instruction for licence revalidation (bi-ennial)?
If yes, log your time as P/ut and get instructor to sign off mandatory one hour training;
If no, did the instructor add value or take control at all during the flight?
If yes, log as P/ut;
If no, were all decisions as to where/when/how etc taken by you?
If no, log as P/ut;
If yes then log it as P1.
Unless it's an IRT or renewal I don't believe you can log is as P1/s and there's no such thing as P2 in SPOs under JAR.
I would be more pragmatic.
Do you (at the moment) need one hour's instruction for licence revalidation (bi-ennial)?
If yes, log your time as P/ut and get instructor to sign off mandatory one hour training;
If no, did the instructor add value or take control at all during the flight?
If yes, log as P/ut;
If no, were all decisions as to where/when/how etc taken by you?
If no, log as P/ut;
If yes then log it as P1.
Unless it's an IRT or renewal I don't believe you can log is as P1/s and there's no such thing as P2 in SPOs under JAR.
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The CAA outline exactly how to record flight time. The link below to GID44 refers.
http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/f...t.asp?page=382
I only wish that I had read it before I started to put entries into my log-book.
http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/f...t.asp?page=382
I only wish that I had read it before I started to put entries into my log-book.
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I tend to agree with FlyingForFun. There can only be one PIC, and if you are being 'checked out' it would normally be the instructor. Let's be realistic: you're being checked out because you presumably don't know the aircraft and/or the local procedures yet, and if some emergency happens during the flight, the instructor will almost certainly take control and attempt to deal with it. By the same token, if some accident happens or a regulation is violated during the flight, the instructor is on the hook as the PIC.
Notwithstanding all of the above, I see nothing wrong with you as the "checkee" reaching agreement with the "checker" that you will be in command for the entire flight; in which case, you will have all of the responsibility and will enjoy the right to log the PIC time (the instructor logs nothing). Maybe that's not acceptable to some instructors and I can certainly see their point, since - regardless of your agreement - the club expects them to ensure that you are safe and that nothing happens to the aircraft. However, if you can talk the instructor into it, more power to you.
The important thing is that the PIC is designated PRIOR to the flight, so that there's no confusion if anything goes wrong.
Notwithstanding all of the above, I see nothing wrong with you as the "checkee" reaching agreement with the "checker" that you will be in command for the entire flight; in which case, you will have all of the responsibility and will enjoy the right to log the PIC time (the instructor logs nothing). Maybe that's not acceptable to some instructors and I can certainly see their point, since - regardless of your agreement - the club expects them to ensure that you are safe and that nothing happens to the aircraft. However, if you can talk the instructor into it, more power to you.
The important thing is that the PIC is designated PRIOR to the flight, so that there's no confusion if anything goes wrong.
Future Pundit, have another read of the GID. It's full of the word 'may', not 'should' or 'shall'. So it is not mandatory to log time as stated in the GID.....
I have given the following guidance at my RF:
There has been some discussion recently about what to log when licence holders are flying with FIs. To simplify and standardise matters, if the flight is conducted under the supervision of a FI (such as a Club Check), then the FI is the person who logs the time as Commander (P1C). The other pilot does not. If he/she wishes to log it as P1C U/S then the FI should endorse his/her logbook accordingly; if the FI is not content with the way the flight went and is not prepared to endorse the logbook, then the other pilot should log the time as P U/T. Revalidation or Renewal Proficiency Checks (which are only flown with an Authorised Examiner) follow these same guidelines.
When 2 qualified licence holders fly together in a Club aircraft, on occasion they may wish to share the flying. However, only 1 will be authorised as ‘Commander’ and that is the person who the Club holds responsible for the safe conduct of the entire flight. If the 2 pilots wish to share the flying, then each may log their own individual P1 time, but the total must be the same as the flight time. The designated Commander should also initial the logbook of the other pilot to confirm that the flight time logged by that pilot was so shared and should be named as Commander in the other pilot’s personal flying logbook.
I have given the following guidance at my RF:
There has been some discussion recently about what to log when licence holders are flying with FIs. To simplify and standardise matters, if the flight is conducted under the supervision of a FI (such as a Club Check), then the FI is the person who logs the time as Commander (P1C). The other pilot does not. If he/she wishes to log it as P1C U/S then the FI should endorse his/her logbook accordingly; if the FI is not content with the way the flight went and is not prepared to endorse the logbook, then the other pilot should log the time as P U/T. Revalidation or Renewal Proficiency Checks (which are only flown with an Authorised Examiner) follow these same guidelines.
When 2 qualified licence holders fly together in a Club aircraft, on occasion they may wish to share the flying. However, only 1 will be authorised as ‘Commander’ and that is the person who the Club holds responsible for the safe conduct of the entire flight. If the 2 pilots wish to share the flying, then each may log their own individual P1 time, but the total must be the same as the flight time. The designated Commander should also initial the logbook of the other pilot to confirm that the flight time logged by that pilot was so shared and should be named as Commander in the other pilot’s personal flying logbook.
Last edited by BEagle; 28th Aug 2002 at 22:01.
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how long ?
1.15 seems a bit steep for a club check on a current pilot , in such a situation I would expect about 40 min in the air.
However this would depend on the airfield trafic situation and the airspace restrictions in the area.
However this would depend on the airfield trafic situation and the airspace restrictions in the area.
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Hmm...every time I have flown a successful club checkout, the instructor has always told me to log it as PIC and endorsed it....I don't have any P1C/US PIS XYZ ABC or any other columns in my 'un JAA approved' logbook, so I make entries in the PIC column and get them endorsed....... the CAA don't seem to bothered about it.
Its different if you're flying under the FARs, in the US a pilot can log PIC for just about any flight that they are 'sole manipulator' etc....which sort of makes sense, especially when the instructor is just sitting there looking out of the window, enjoying the view.
Cheers
EA
Its different if you're flying under the FARs, in the US a pilot can log PIC for just about any flight that they are 'sole manipulator' etc....which sort of makes sense, especially when the instructor is just sitting there looking out of the window, enjoying the view.
Cheers
EA
