Radio and Navigaton!!
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Radio and Navigaton!!
So, im doing my PPL and the flying is going really well but im worried about talking on the radio and navigation. When im up there I get a bit worried I wouldnt be able to get back to the airport or might get lost. I sound a bit cockney and worried cause my instrustor is really well spoken etc 
any tips??
any tips??
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Very simple solution!!
Get yourself a copy of Microsoft Flight Simulator.
Radio Navigation on this is just the same as in a real airplane. However you might want to restrict yourself to the same instruments you have available to you in your real plane, and not use all the one's provided in MS FS!!
I used MS FS before I started flying for real. It ment that I was familiar with all the instruments, and there use, especially for radio navigation, before I ever got near the cockpit.
Obviously your instructor will teach you correct proceedure for using them, but having used MS FS first, will mean you will pick it up very quickly, as you will already be familiar with them.
Get yourself a copy of Microsoft Flight Simulator.
Radio Navigation on this is just the same as in a real airplane. However you might want to restrict yourself to the same instruments you have available to you in your real plane, and not use all the one's provided in MS FS!!
I used MS FS before I started flying for real. It ment that I was familiar with all the instruments, and there use, especially for radio navigation, before I ever got near the cockpit.
Obviously your instructor will teach you correct proceedure for using them, but having used MS FS first, will mean you will pick it up very quickly, as you will already be familiar with them.
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Engage brain BEFORE opening mouth.
Decide what you want to say before pressing the PTT button.
All you have to say is :- Who you are, (callsign), What you are (aircraft type), Where you are (position, height, QNH). What you want (Flight info - joining instructions etc).
If the controller requires more - they will ask.
Don't forget the other magic phrase - 'Say Again'
Decide what you want to say before pressing the PTT button.
All you have to say is :- Who you are, (callsign), What you are (aircraft type), Where you are (position, height, QNH). What you want (Flight info - joining instructions etc).
If the controller requires more - they will ask.
Don't forget the other magic phrase - 'Say Again'
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Im just worried Ill mess up and the ATC guy sitting there thinking "what is he going on about" or I do something incorrect ill get shot for. Imm sure my instructer will teach me this and over time ill get the jif of it 
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Holloway,
When I started flying, the two parts of the whole game that seemed most intimidating were talking on the radio and knowing where I was. Especially since my instructor had a magic psychic power to always know exactly where everything was.
A lot of this is simply that the human brain, in the early stages, can easily be flooded with the novelty and stimulation of flight, causing the poor thing to give up quite easily on tasks that would seem trivial sitting on the ground.
At one fairly early stage of circuit training things reached rock bottom for me when I pressed the transmit button to call downwind, and simultaneously realised that
a) I had forgotten the name of the airfield I was flying from (it was Old Buckenham, so "Buckenham Radio" was the station I should have addressed)
b) I could not spot the airfield, even though I was in the downwind leg of the circuit. (Well, it's a wide circuit for noise abatements, and a little cloud had plunged it into shadow)
My instructor was highly amused but was careful not to make me feel bad about it. As he said, these are common problems in the early stages and nothing to be embarrassed about.
It is a good idea to get a copy of CAP413, the CAA RT manual, and just practice making the various calls to yourself, using your aircraft type, airfield, etc. And as others have written, it's best to work out your message before you start to transmit.
Both this and your situational awareness will gradually work their way into your consciousness, but it takes time. Don't worry if it hasn't happened yet. One day you will suddenly realise that it's all snapped into place in your head, and you won't be able to remember exactly why it was difficult. Meanwhile your instructor, if he/she is a good one, will keep you working hard but be patient with you as well.
When I started flying, the two parts of the whole game that seemed most intimidating were talking on the radio and knowing where I was. Especially since my instructor had a magic psychic power to always know exactly where everything was.
A lot of this is simply that the human brain, in the early stages, can easily be flooded with the novelty and stimulation of flight, causing the poor thing to give up quite easily on tasks that would seem trivial sitting on the ground.
At one fairly early stage of circuit training things reached rock bottom for me when I pressed the transmit button to call downwind, and simultaneously realised that
a) I had forgotten the name of the airfield I was flying from (it was Old Buckenham, so "Buckenham Radio" was the station I should have addressed)
b) I could not spot the airfield, even though I was in the downwind leg of the circuit. (Well, it's a wide circuit for noise abatements, and a little cloud had plunged it into shadow)
My instructor was highly amused but was careful not to make me feel bad about it. As he said, these are common problems in the early stages and nothing to be embarrassed about.
It is a good idea to get a copy of CAP413, the CAA RT manual, and just practice making the various calls to yourself, using your aircraft type, airfield, etc. And as others have written, it's best to work out your message before you start to transmit.
Both this and your situational awareness will gradually work their way into your consciousness, but it takes time. Don't worry if it hasn't happened yet. One day you will suddenly realise that it's all snapped into place in your head, and you won't be able to remember exactly why it was difficult. Meanwhile your instructor, if he/she is a good one, will keep you working hard but be patient with you as well.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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dublinpilot, if I've read everything correctly, you've mis-understood Holloway's question. I think he's asking about two separate things - radio, and navigation. He's not asking about radio navigation, which is what you're giving him (excellent) advice about! Sorry if I've got that wrong, though....
Holloway, first, radio. No one cares what accent you have, as long as they can understand you, so don't worry about that! As for what to say, Who's advice about engaging brain is definitely good. Your instructor will break you in gently, maybe by getting you to ask for airfield information before departure, for example, while he handles everything else. Once you're starting working in the circuit you'll need to announce your position, but again, there are only a couple of calls you'll need to learn, and they're very easy.
The hard part is once you're expected to use the radio away from your airfield. The reply to "pass your message" is the only difficult bit. Basically, when you're away from the airfield, you generally call up a ground station and give your call-sign, and that's it. Their reply will probably tell you to "pass your message", and that's your cue to give them all the information in the world. Or at least, it seems like all the information in the world at first, but in fact there's only a handful of things that you need to tell them, and the aim is to get them all the information quickly and precisely. I don't know if all instructors teach the same way, but my instructor didn't expect me to worry too much about this until I started doing cross-country flying. I found that quite handy, because I always have a flight plan strapped to my knee when flying cross-country. So, for me, the answer was easy - I wrote down everything that I needed to say on my flight plan! Then, whenever I got told to "pass my message", I just read all the information out off of a list on my knee - simple! By the time I needed to handle the radio at times when I wasn't on a cross-country, I'd done it so many times that it was pretty much burnt into my brain - a quick session at home of saying the same thing over and over for about 10 minutes was sufficient that I haven't had problems since.
The main thing to remember, though, is that the guy on the other end of the radio is human. If you can't remember the correct phrase to use, speak English - he'll understand, and reply in English. Everyone is there to help you, all you need to do is tell them what help you need.
Now, navigation. There are two seperate parts to navigation. The main navigation technique which you'll be taught is a combination of ded reckoning (short for "deduced reckoning", and sometimes (mis-)spelt "dead" reckoning) and pilotage. Ded reckoning involves working out what direction to fly, and for how long. Then you take off, point in the right direction, and start the stop-watch. Pilotage involves looking out of the window and comparing it to what's on a chart, and is used to correct for errors in your ded reckoning (e.g. because the wind forecast was wrong, or because you're not flying as accurately as you hoped). There are very definite, formal techniques for doing this, which your instructor will teach you much later on in your training.
The thing which always scared me, though, was just flying out to the local area for some general handling and finding my way back. After I'd gone solo, and done a few more hours solo in the circuit, my instructor sent me, solo, about 10 miles away from the airfield to one of our reporting points. I was terrified that I wouldn't be able to find my way back! Turned out to be easy though! I know that if someone tried to tell me, when I was at the stage you're at now, how easy it would be, I wouldn't have believed them, so I don't expect you to believe me. But by the time you're ready to venture away from the airfield alone you'll have spent so many hours flying in the local area that the landmarks will be burnt into your head without you even realising! It might help, though, to ask your instructor to point out the landmarks he's using to get you home the next time you're in the local flying area together. For example, maybe he always looks for the cluster of three tall buildings to identify a particular town (but he'll probably also know that you can only see two of them if you're to the north...) Maybe he just finds his way to somewhere that's easy to spot, then follows a road or a railway line. A bit of local knowledge really helps.
By the way, when I went to America to do some hour-building, I had exactly the same nerves all over again. Once I'd got checked out with an instructor at the club I was hiring from, I was terrified that, as soon as I left the airfield without a proper ded-reckoning plan, I'd never find my way back again. So I took off, flew 5 miles, then did a 180-degree turn to check I could still see the airfield. I could, so I turned away, and went another 5 miles. I kept repeating that until I couldn't see the airfield any more - but by the time I was that far away, there were other landmarks around that I recognised. Just as easy as it was a year or so earlier when my instructor sent me out to that reporting point - but that didn't stop me being nervous about it until I'd seen for myself!
FFF
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Holloway, first, radio. No one cares what accent you have, as long as they can understand you, so don't worry about that! As for what to say, Who's advice about engaging brain is definitely good. Your instructor will break you in gently, maybe by getting you to ask for airfield information before departure, for example, while he handles everything else. Once you're starting working in the circuit you'll need to announce your position, but again, there are only a couple of calls you'll need to learn, and they're very easy.
The hard part is once you're expected to use the radio away from your airfield. The reply to "pass your message" is the only difficult bit. Basically, when you're away from the airfield, you generally call up a ground station and give your call-sign, and that's it. Their reply will probably tell you to "pass your message", and that's your cue to give them all the information in the world. Or at least, it seems like all the information in the world at first, but in fact there's only a handful of things that you need to tell them, and the aim is to get them all the information quickly and precisely. I don't know if all instructors teach the same way, but my instructor didn't expect me to worry too much about this until I started doing cross-country flying. I found that quite handy, because I always have a flight plan strapped to my knee when flying cross-country. So, for me, the answer was easy - I wrote down everything that I needed to say on my flight plan! Then, whenever I got told to "pass my message", I just read all the information out off of a list on my knee - simple! By the time I needed to handle the radio at times when I wasn't on a cross-country, I'd done it so many times that it was pretty much burnt into my brain - a quick session at home of saying the same thing over and over for about 10 minutes was sufficient that I haven't had problems since.
The main thing to remember, though, is that the guy on the other end of the radio is human. If you can't remember the correct phrase to use, speak English - he'll understand, and reply in English. Everyone is there to help you, all you need to do is tell them what help you need.
Now, navigation. There are two seperate parts to navigation. The main navigation technique which you'll be taught is a combination of ded reckoning (short for "deduced reckoning", and sometimes (mis-)spelt "dead" reckoning) and pilotage. Ded reckoning involves working out what direction to fly, and for how long. Then you take off, point in the right direction, and start the stop-watch. Pilotage involves looking out of the window and comparing it to what's on a chart, and is used to correct for errors in your ded reckoning (e.g. because the wind forecast was wrong, or because you're not flying as accurately as you hoped). There are very definite, formal techniques for doing this, which your instructor will teach you much later on in your training.
The thing which always scared me, though, was just flying out to the local area for some general handling and finding my way back. After I'd gone solo, and done a few more hours solo in the circuit, my instructor sent me, solo, about 10 miles away from the airfield to one of our reporting points. I was terrified that I wouldn't be able to find my way back! Turned out to be easy though! I know that if someone tried to tell me, when I was at the stage you're at now, how easy it would be, I wouldn't have believed them, so I don't expect you to believe me. But by the time you're ready to venture away from the airfield alone you'll have spent so many hours flying in the local area that the landmarks will be burnt into your head without you even realising! It might help, though, to ask your instructor to point out the landmarks he's using to get you home the next time you're in the local flying area together. For example, maybe he always looks for the cluster of three tall buildings to identify a particular town (but he'll probably also know that you can only see two of them if you're to the north...) Maybe he just finds his way to somewhere that's easy to spot, then follows a road or a railway line. A bit of local knowledge really helps.
By the way, when I went to America to do some hour-building, I had exactly the same nerves all over again. Once I'd got checked out with an instructor at the club I was hiring from, I was terrified that, as soon as I left the airfield without a proper ded-reckoning plan, I'd never find my way back again. So I took off, flew 5 miles, then did a 180-degree turn to check I could still see the airfield. I could, so I turned away, and went another 5 miles. I kept repeating that until I couldn't see the airfield any more - but by the time I was that far away, there were other landmarks around that I recognised. Just as easy as it was a year or so earlier when my instructor sent me out to that reporting point - but that didn't stop me being nervous about it until I'd seen for myself!
FFF
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Last edited by FlyingForFun; 27th Aug 2002 at 13:26.
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Thanks for your time FFF. It gives me confidence One good thing I guess about Manston there is a LARGE OLD power station with Large Cooling towers about a mile away from the runway. which will help me find my way to the runway, plus where Manston is is on the far south east corner of the map which the land where Manston is only about 6 miles wide before there is Sea either side. I guess if I stayed within the land I know my way about because I live there and know most of the places. I think I will go with the flow so to speak with my ppl and I know im proberly worrying about nothing but I guess its just normal to think ahead how and when etc. I like chalanges hence why im doing this. I just finished my last chalange and that was learning to fly a RC helecopter. It took me ages and it was so dificalt and at times I thought I would NEVER get the hang of it and one day BANG I could do it and made good progress. Now im really good at it and I have a friend whos now learning it and he thinks he will never get the hang of it
Again FFF, thanks for your time and experiance, Much appreciated
One good thing I guess about Manston there is a LARGE OLD power station with Large Cooling towers about a mile away from the runway. which will help me find my way to the runway, plus where Manston is is on the far south east corner of the map which the land where Manston is only about 6 miles wide before there is Sea either side. I guess if I stayed within the land I know my way about because I live there and know most of the places. I think I will go with the flow so to speak with my ppl and I know im proberly worrying about nothing but I guess its just normal to think ahead how and when etc. I like chalanges hence why im doing this. I just finished my last chalange and that was learning to fly a RC helecopter. It took me ages and it was so dificalt and at times I thought I would NEVER get the hang of it and one day BANG I could do it and made good progress. Now im really good at it and I have a friend whos now learning it and he thinks he will never get the hang of it Again FFF, thanks for your time and experiance, Much appreciated
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Sorry Holloway,
I misread your question as FFF said!
Not much I can add to FFF's comprehensive responce.
Who Hasw Control gave you a very handy frase when dealing with ATC "Say again". Don't be afraid to use it.
Let me give you another. "Standby". If you get asked for some piece of info that will take you a minute to get, then tell the controller to "Standby". It lets him know you got the message, and are not ignoring it, and will be back to him in a minute when you have the info, and takes the pressure off you!!
I misread your question as FFF said!
Not much I can add to FFF's comprehensive responce.
Who Hasw Control gave you a very handy frase when dealing with ATC "Say again". Don't be afraid to use it.
Let me give you another. "Standby". If you get asked for some piece of info that will take you a minute to get, then tell the controller to "Standby". It lets him know you got the message, and are not ignoring it, and will be back to him in a minute when you have the info, and takes the pressure off you!!
Last edited by dublinpilot; 27th Aug 2002 at 11:16.
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Radio: As above. Keep it simple. Non of this TR-PACER confusion.
Who/What/Where/Wequest.
Borrow/buy an airband radio and listen in. I also did a 2 day RT course which included the written and Oral test. This helped a lot and was good fun.
Navigation: Most importand thing is "Hold your heading and speed".
Looking at the ground too much will convince you that you are somewhere that you are not.
Even if you are well off course at your ETA over a waypoint you will at least know why and can make an accurate correction.
My mistake early on was not holding heading as I was too distracted by other things. By the time I got to the waypoint, any correction made would be useless unless I was equally awful in holding my heading for the next section.
Unfortunately I am inconsistent in my level of inconsistency
Who/What/Where/Wequest
.Borrow/buy an airband radio and listen in. I also did a 2 day RT course which included the written and Oral test. This helped a lot and was good fun.
Navigation: Most importand thing is "Hold your heading and speed".
Looking at the ground too much will convince you that you are somewhere that you are not.
Even if you are well off course at your ETA over a waypoint you will at least know why and can make an accurate correction.
My mistake early on was not holding heading as I was too distracted by other things. By the time I got to the waypoint, any correction made would be useless unless I was equally awful in holding my heading for the next section.
Unfortunately I am inconsistent in my level of inconsistency
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Lots of good advice here. Just to add one bit, there are lots of TRPHACER-type acronyms around, but the one that I've found most useful is
C - Callsign
A - Aircraft type
R - Route
P - Position
A - Altitute (&QNH)
R - Request
Who you are, where you are, what you want. The only time I alter it is when crossing a MATZ, when I add an ETA to the MATZ before the Request (having once been told off by Boscombe Down for not telling them....
).
C - Callsign
A - Aircraft type
R - Route
P - Position
A - Altitute (&QNH)
R - Request
Who you are, where you are, what you want. The only time I alter it is when crossing a MATZ, when I add an ETA to the MATZ before the Request (having once been told off by Boscombe Down for not telling them....
).
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Holloway, if you are flying from Manston then there is no way you can get lost because you have a coastline to follow!
I bet that you will always be able to see the coast during your training and if you can see that, then you will always be able to find your base. Go to the coast & turn left or right as appropriate - forget the power station its not as obvious as a coastline.
I learnt at Southend so I am speaking from experience.
I bet that you will always be able to see the coast during your training and if you can see that, then you will always be able to find your base. Go to the coast & turn left or right as appropriate - forget the power station its not as obvious as a coastline.
I learnt at Southend so I am speaking from experience.
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Im 22 
Just a baby I guess but hay im keen and willing to learn and this is a long term thing for me.
Where can I get a radio so I can listern to the ATC at manston and is it alowed??
Just a baby I guess but hay im keen and willing to learn and this is a long term thing for me.Where can I get a radio so I can listern to the ATC at manston and is it alowed??
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Excellent advice so far, but I can add still more!
Firstly, your instructor should always be the first port of call if you have any questions. If he's aware you're unsure, or concerned about something, he can concentrate on it over the next few lessons, and do some extra ground school with you. Don't be afraid of looking silly!
From your other posts I'm guessing you're pretty early on in your training? Don't start worrying about whether something might be a problem in 15 flying hour's time! There are only a handful of calls you'll need to make before you get onto navigation. Why don't you get together with another student from your school/club and practise them on the ground. Draw a circuit and take it in turns being ATC and pilot. You'll find the calls much easier to make when you know what you expect to hear when.
When you do get onto navigation you can do the same again. Draw out an imaginary route, and practise making the calls, taking it in turns being ATC and pilot. You can practise position reports while you're out and about during the day, walking down the street, sitting on a bus etc. *hint* don't speak too loud Also, you can write yourself a reminder about what information needs to be passed, and slip it into your kneeboard. Try not to use it, but if you get stuck, it's there as a back up.
Why don't you get yourself up the tower and have a chat to the ATCOs? Not only will you realise that they're almost human, but next time you're having a flap on the radio you will be able to put a face with the voice, and that should relax you a little.
Also remember that ATC are there to serve you They would much rather hear you say "Umm, I'm really not sure what you want to know, or where I am" than a guess at both! The sooner they know you've got a problem the easier it will be for everyone to fix it. Yes, you should try to stick to protocol, but no-one's going to shoot you for saying "G-** could you just remind me what you want me to do next?" It's better than not doing what they want you to do because you're afraid to say you've forgotten!
Firstly, your instructor should always be the first port of call if you have any questions. If he's aware you're unsure, or concerned about something, he can concentrate on it over the next few lessons, and do some extra ground school with you. Don't be afraid of looking silly!
From your other posts I'm guessing you're pretty early on in your training? Don't start worrying about whether something might be a problem in 15 flying hour's time! There are only a handful of calls you'll need to make before you get onto navigation. Why don't you get together with another student from your school/club and practise them on the ground. Draw a circuit and take it in turns being ATC and pilot. You'll find the calls much easier to make when you know what you expect to hear when.
When you do get onto navigation you can do the same again. Draw out an imaginary route, and practise making the calls, taking it in turns being ATC and pilot. You can practise position reports while you're out and about during the day, walking down the street, sitting on a bus etc. *hint* don't speak too loud
Also, you can write yourself a reminder about what information needs to be passed, and slip it into your kneeboard. Try not to use it, but if you get stuck, it's there as a back up.Why don't you get yourself up the tower and have a chat to the ATCOs? Not only will you realise that they're almost human, but next time you're having a flap on the radio you will be able to put a face with the voice, and that should relax you a little.
Also remember that ATC are there to serve you
They would much rather hear you say "Umm, I'm really not sure what you want to know, or where I am" than a guess at both! The sooner they know you've got a problem the easier it will be for everyone to fix it. Yes, you should try to stick to protocol, but no-one's going to shoot you for saying "G-** could you just remind me what you want me to do next?" It's better than not doing what they want you to do because you're afraid to say you've forgotten!
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Holloway,
As I said in the email (I'm just about to reply), I've been into flying for two years ish and I think one of the things I find good fun is using the radio, though I've started doing this properly since I started the PPL.
Read the books, sure, but one of the best ways to learn as others have said is to get an airband radio....where you live I think you should get Manston frequencies well.
Also, when you're in a car, on a bus etc, do radio calls in your head! I know it sounds silly, but it really does get you thinking. For instance, "Stagecoach one is a big double decker bus, out of Canterbury inbound to Manston VFR wth 2 POB, currently overhaead Bridge at 1200' on 1021, request FIS". Obviously some of the numbers etc have to be made up, but you get the idea
Cheers,
tKF
As I said in the email (I'm just about to reply
), I've been into flying for two years ish and I think one of the things I find good fun is using the radio, though I've started doing this properly since I started the PPL.Read the books, sure, but one of the best ways to learn as others have said is to get an airband radio....where you live I think you should get Manston frequencies well.
Also, when you're in a car, on a bus etc, do radio calls in your head! I know it sounds silly, but it really does get you thinking. For instance, "Stagecoach one is a big double decker bus, out of Canterbury inbound to Manston VFR wth 2 POB, currently overhaead Bridge at 1200' on 1021, request FIS". Obviously some of the numbers etc have to be made up, but you get the idea
Cheers,
tKF
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I'm sure i'll get flamed for this but like you my RT was naff to say the least and added to that I have a regional accent. My solution...loose the dross. I kept it simple who, where and what
Who...callsign
Where...position ie 10 north or overhead bloggsville (plus altiude is nice)
What...(you want).request to land, transtion airspace...whatever
Job done. Afterwards you will undoubtably be asked for aircraft type routing and alt. You'll be told the QNH and sqwark. Possibly asked POB and asked what type of service you require.
Rather than getting into a bad habit of not asking on your initial request for the 'superficial items' I found(IMHO) that I slowly learned to fit these in as I became bored of being asked for them.
One last thing, rather than give your life story on initial contact whilst on route, only to find you are told by a buisy atc to stand by. Try opening the conversation with 'G-****' request FIS, it cuts to the chase and gives you a bit of breathing space to get the rest in later.
As Aerbabe has said though your instructor is your first port of call, he's the one you will listen to the most on the RT.
A transeiver/airband scanner is great too. An airband scanner is cheap, particularly from communication specialist outfits and lets you listen to both good and bad.
Who...callsign
Where...position ie 10 north or overhead bloggsville (plus altiude is nice)
What...(you want).request to land, transtion airspace...whatever
Job done. Afterwards you will undoubtably be asked for aircraft type routing and alt. You'll be told the QNH and sqwark. Possibly asked POB and asked what type of service you require.
Rather than getting into a bad habit of not asking on your initial request for the 'superficial items' I found(IMHO) that I slowly learned to fit these in as I became bored of being asked for them.
One last thing, rather than give your life story on initial contact whilst on route, only to find you are told by a buisy atc to stand by. Try opening the conversation with 'G-****' request FIS, it cuts to the chase and gives you a bit of breathing space to get the rest in later.
As Aerbabe has said though your instructor is your first port of call, he's the one you will listen to the most on the RT.
A transeiver/airband scanner is great too. An airband scanner is cheap, particularly from communication specialist outfits and lets you listen to both good and bad.
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Holloway
If it all goes really pear shaped, you can always contact the London D&D cell on 121.5 and ask for a "Training Fix"
They can use VDF (voice direction finder) to give you a plain language location fix - e.g. "six miles west of Ramsgate."
I've only used the service a couple of times over the past ten years, but its a very good fallback and they would much rather help you early, before you get lost.
Once you have a position on your chart, its much easier to work out what to do next.
Most pilots have felt the way you do at some point, so full marks to you for having the bottle to raise it on this forum.
If it all goes really pear shaped, you can always contact the London D&D cell on 121.5 and ask for a "Training Fix"
They can use VDF (voice direction finder) to give you a plain language location fix - e.g. "six miles west of Ramsgate."
I've only used the service a couple of times over the past ten years, but its a very good fallback and they would much rather help you early, before you get lost.
Once you have a position on your chart, its much easier to work out what to do next.
Most pilots have felt the way you do at some point, so full marks to you for having the bottle to raise it on this forum.