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Simming before PPL

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Simming before PPL

Old 8th Nov 2021, 14:29
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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There is a reason why approved simulators are usually equipped with qualified instructors that have actual instructor time . Buy me a beer and I will tell you why .

There are four basic level of learning :
Rote
Understanding
Application
Correlation

What level do you think you are at ? How might you achieve the next level ?

A good pilot is always in training.






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Old 8th Nov 2021, 15:23
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rudestuff View Post
So you find yourself in every pilots' fantasy scenario: Both pilots ate the fish and we need a hero.

Do you trust the 100 hour PPL or the 2000 hour SIM guy who knows the buttons, the modes, the flap schedule and can auto-land the shit out of a 777 with his eyes closed?

TBH it all depends. Does “sim guy” have a scooby do about the customer options? The subtle and not so subtle differences between fleets/even within fleets and when/if those differences matters. Does he she recognize these differences when he he/she is presented with this fictional flight deck…

Does sim “guy” know if we headed for somewhere where autoland is even an option…and does “sim guy” understand when it isn’t, and if it turns out it isn’t can they handle a non autoland option ….(maybe that’s when the PPL might be a better bet)…

There’s a real danger of too much knowledge being a dangerous thing.

For me, above all I’d hope that our hero understands enough about R/T (perhaps even has an R/T license), knows how to call for help, and recognizes when they are getting out of their depth before punching buttons.

Last edited by wiggy; 8th Nov 2021 at 15:54.
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Old 9th Nov 2021, 04:32
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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I’m a PPL and flight simmer, plus I was involved in a fixed base public sim operation so I know a great many airline fellas who used to come along to instruct sessions.

The truth is a lot of the GA crowd are very sniffy about MSFS so it’s probably best to keep your trap shut for now.

The truth is that flying the 777 on the desktop is pretty much an exercise in systems management, as it mostly is in real life. There ain’t much hand flying to do, plus a desktop sim is incredibly poor at replicating the feel of the real thing anyhow.

That said, all of the youngish guys I know who fly for the airlines now use the more advanced simulator aircraft (PMDG/Flight Sim Labs) etc to practice before they do sessions in the real sim. The desktop is incredibly good at the procedural/flow/drills stuff, but it’s not remotely flying in the way that you’ll be learning for your PPL.

I’d keep your sim flying and real world flying entirely apart as you will need the mental capacity to learn skills that you’ll find harder to attain than shooting a VNAV approach in the 777. Dodging weather, RT, navigation and LOOKING OUT OF THE WINDOW are all things that you’ll need to get good at and fast.

There’s absolutely no question that being proficient in the sim will help you down the line, especially if you can replicate your aircraft type, local area and landmarks as rightly posted earlier. MSFS 2020 with satellite ground scenery and landmarks is a game changer in this area. But first things first. Do more listening than talking and do what you’re taught. Good luck!




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Old 9th Nov 2021, 14:06
  #64 (permalink)  
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kghjfg
When you went to the apparently disinterested schools, you didn’t mention MSFS did you and your current virtual flying qualifications?
Never did it. Not that I knew I shouldn't mention it it's just that I didn't think about doing it.

This thread starts with you stating you have taken some tests and licenses of PPL standard and that you even have an IR. It might be best not to say these things to an instructor at first!
Wouldn't say these virtual licenses are of PPL standards but it's true that it covers the basics of the basics.
​​​​Yea got it! I will actually not talk about myself at all unless my instructor asks questions about me as stated multiple times by your colleagues. I did it here in the forum because it was my first post and I thought it would be great to make a quick presentation of myself and I was quite right because if I didn't I would never have got all these pieces of wonderful advice.

rudestuff
​​​​​​
So you find yourself in every pilots' fantasy scenario: Both pilots ate the fish and we need a hero.

Do you trust the 100 hour PPL or the 2000 hour SIM guy who knows the buttons, the modes, the flap schedule and can auto-land the shit out of a 777 with his eyes closed?
I wouldn't be able to choose a preference personally. I would say both would do it but in a different way.
Now simmer is a big word. You can have simmer not doing it seriously and not caring about crashes and procedures and you have the others doing it ultra seriously and studying books constantly.
For a PPL you can be pretty confident he knows what every PPL should know.
A PPL would probably focus more on flying the airplane. A simmer would use the knobs and the buttons.
I think the best would be to have both, with the PPL the PF and the simmer the PM.

Does sim “guy” know if we headed for somewhere where autoland is even an option…and does “sim guy” understand when it isn’t, and if it turns out it isn’t can they handle a non-autoland option
Non-autoland option? I would struggle but if you find yourself in a position where every pilot in the airplane died and there are absolutely no airports accomodating cat3 in the current range of the aircraft (hoping the airplane is able for cat3), you are very unlucky then.


reverserunlocked
That's exactly what I think. I still believe my sim will be proficient at a certain point in my career especially for jets even though I might have got some bad habits through the sim.
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Old 9th Nov 2021, 20:47
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Forget the game sim.
Here is some well done open MIT PPL course to prepare yourself:
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronaut...uary-iap-2019/
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Old 9th Nov 2021, 21:08
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ELMS77W View Post
Non-autoland option? I would struggle but if you find yourself in a position where every pilot in the airplane died and there are absolutely no airports accomodating cat3 in the current range of the aircraft (hoping the airplane is able for cat3), you are very unlucky then.
Good answer! I'd take the SIM guy I think! I know plenty of line pilots who know just enough about the airplane and automation to pass the SIM every 6 months, whilst there are probably people out there who don't even have a licence but who have read the FCOM and FCTM back to front 10 times because it is their passion. Every time i manage to wrestle a V1 cut into the air and my mind goes blank I think to myself I bet there's a 7 year old kid somewhere who can fly this SIM better than me!
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 05:03
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ELMS77W View Post
Non-autoland option? I would struggle but if you find yourself in a position where every pilot in the airplane died and there are absolutely no airports accomodating cat3 in the current range of the aircraft (hoping the airplane is able for cat3), you are very unlucky then.
Just for completeness/being picky/pointing out a little knowledge might be a dangerous thing - in the context of that comment do you really mean a runway “accommodating cat 3” or do you actually mean a runway, which regardless of category, can accommodate an autoland?

If you mean the former then if you are unlucky enough to have your chicken eating crew fall ill in the final stages of a long sector then you may very easily find there is no airport “accommodating cat3” with the current range of the aircraft. A request for such would result in blank looks from ATC over large swaths of the world, including parts the States…

OTOH telling ATC you need a runway that will accommodate an autoland might be the better bet.

FWIW a lot of T7 flying at the airline where I worked was in the Caribbean, a lot of it on short shuttle sectors … where you were often not exactly overburdened with fuel and ILSs were relatively thin on the ground. That’s possibly one situation where your high hours PPL might well win out over your sim hero.

The above is all why I put an “it depends” in my first response to the posed “ but what if”…

Your zero real flight time sim hero might be the better bet if they are presented with the aircraft mid Atlantic, heading for London/Europe (and probably with plenty advice available on the R/T)as long as he/she didn’t accidentally disconnect the A/P in the excitement.…OTOH I can certainly imagine circumstances where somebody with a bit of real aircraft time might be the better option…..ultimately of course your best bet is neither of those, there really is a reason why real world qualifications which involve training on a real aircraft and/or a full motion flight sim exist.

Last edited by wiggy; 10th Nov 2021 at 10:01.
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 06:22
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Imagine the 100 hours PPL and the simmer together, one in each seat, each convinced they could save the day. That would be entertaining. It might be a good combination if they could work together, but somehow I think it would end in tears.
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 07:54
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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OP,

I did ask a few questions in my posts, out of interest, do you know what carb heat is?

do you apply it in the sim?
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 09:55
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Never really had this issue during my time 'training', back in the day as my kids would remind me whilst rolling their eyes skyward! Computer flight sims were as seen earlier in the thread! (Aviator for the BBC micro anyone?)

I did have a couple of students who had PPL experience and what they gained from familiarity in the cockpit they lost in the time needed to re-train what were, at the time, considered 'bad habits'.

Personally, given the fidelity of modern computer sims, I can see that someone with obsessive large amounts of time 'in game' at the levels some of these online Airlines demand would have familiarity with the basic cockpit layout. However, then the real world intrudes with the myriad of distractions that modern flying is coupled with the differing SOP's of various companies.

If you enjoy the sim then crack on with it. Personally I would consider it exactly what it is, a game, and leave the references, experience and knowledge at the desk when turning up to fly in the real world. There is nothing worse than trying to teach someone complex, cascading malfunctions handling in a big jet multi crew environment when the ubiquitous 'but in my sim........' comment pops up!

Treat the 'real world flying' as a complete novice and I'm sure you will enjoy it and progress well.
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 09:59
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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FWIW a lot of T7 flying at the airline where I worked was in the Caribbean, a lot of it on short shuttle sectors
Would that be something like the ANU/SKB no autopilot allowed, visual approaches only, see how quick you can do it sectors per chance?
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 10:00
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Imagine somebody good at "Call of Duty" telling the Marines recruiter how experienced he already is.
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 10:03
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wirbelsturm View Post
There is nothing worse than trying to teach someone complex, cascading malfunctions handling in a big jet multi crew environment when the ubiquitous 'but in my sim........' comment pops up!

Treat the 'real world flying' as a complete novice and I'm sure you will enjoy it and progress well.
Agreed. But also it's really hard teaching a novice to fly straight and level when they spend 80% of the time looking at the instruments and 20% telling you that the aeroplane isn't doing things right!
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 10:04
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wirbelsturm View Post
Would that be something like the ANU/SKB no autopilot allowed, visual approaches only, see how quick you can do it sectors per chance?
You may think that, I cannot possibly comment

ATB…

(Hark…..is that sound I hear the hum of PCs being booted up)
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 10:07
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Angel

Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
You may think that, I cannot possibly comment

ATB…

(Hark…..is that sound I hear the hum of a PC being booted up)
16 Minutes I believe Wiggy, though, as you say, I couldn't possibly comment!

ATB!!!!
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 10:09
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Heston View Post
Agreed. But also it's really hard teaching a novice to fly straight and level when they spend 80% of the time looking at the instruments and 20% telling you that the aeroplane isn't doing things right!
Very true! Sorry, I sometimes forget my roots and the bastions of aviation, the local flight school instructors!!!!
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 12:19
  #77 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by kghjfg View Post
I did ask a few questions in my posts, out of interest, do you know what carb heat is? do you apply it in the sim?
A keen game-simmer has no shortage of available knowledge and protocols.

Simmer community guidance (notable absence of stick measuring): https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t...eat-use/442141
Simmer complaining it's hard to find (he knows he needs it): https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t...eat-152/350904
Simmer trying to setup his HW to control it (MS shipped the game wrongly with non-discrete config): https://forum.simflight.com/topic/90...na-152-ms2020/

Not all PC SIM players are simmers though.

Fact I observed, that many of the community-based document packages for VATSIM or IVAO are much better detail and quality than your average airline books. Peer-reviewed and open-source, there's indeed far greater resource available to get it done nice and neat, compared to your average 40% under-staffed FlightOps engineering. No egos hurt, strength in numbers and enthusiasm.

Last edited by FlightDetent; 10th Nov 2021 at 20:05.
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 12:43
  #78 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
Imagine somebody good at "Call of Duty" telling the Marines recruiter how experienced he already is.
Oh well. Heaven forbid the US forces created their own game to recruit the person in the first place! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Army [The game is financed by the U.S. government and distributed by free download.]

Speaking of Marines, specifically (another trip down the memory lane, DOOM I & II)
... while nowhere near realistic — was intense and engaging, and promoted the kind of consistent, repetitive teamwork a Marine fireteam would employ in combat. While “Marine Doom” never became an official training tool, Marines were encouraged to play it, and it was sanctioned to be installed on government PCs. In 1997, Gen. Charles C. Krulak, who was the commandant of the Marine Corps at the time, issued a directive supporting the use of PC games for “Military Thinking And Decision Exercises.”

“[In 2001], Bohemia Interactive Simulations broke off from Bohemia Interactive Studios, which is a gaming company. But VBS is based on a couple of realistic games that the studio put out—Operation Flashpoint and ARMA." https://hub.fullsail.edu/articles/wa...onger-military

https://www.army.mil/article/235085/...ng_video_games
https://www.military.com/undertherad...he-battlefield

Indeed, the key here is guided instruction.
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 13:11
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting. However still VERY far away from any physical military activity. Similar to simulated flight and actual flying.
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 14:00
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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I've always found that those who have just completed their type rating or licence are, generally, at their technical best. They certainly know far more about the aircraft from a technical standpoint than I do and are probably better at application of exact SOP's! I would imagine that simmers, of which my son is one, are pretty much the same. They know the technical aspects down to the final bolt, some of these guys and girls put A LOT of effort into replicating the 'real thing'!

However, when they meet the 'real world' with it's weather, no 'no jeopardy' flying (ground is really hard), ATC that doesn't follow prescripted rules, failures that even the manufacturer couldn't envisage, passengers, freight, ground equipment, blocked runways, contaminated runways, simply 'wrong' runways, late switches, US ATC (), Australian ATC (), LoCo's taxying at V1, ramp controllers, anything whatsoever to do with JFK in the winter including the Carnarsie approach in trash weather, etc. etc. etc. that's where the sim environment ends and the real world experience begins.

I'm still learning after 35 years of flying and I still crash my son's 777 when the computer doesn't do what the real aircraft would!!!!!

In summary, as I've stated before, personally I don't think having 'sim' experience is a bad thing but please, please, please leave it at the door of real life flying, insert new cassette and begin learning.

ATB

Wirbs!
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